197 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

OdanUrr wrote...

For:

How many lives have been ripped apart because of magic? How many families have lost their children to the Circle or lost loved ones to demons or simply to mages who abused their power? What would they say if you told them that you could rid the world of magic, that you could prevent their children from ever being taken away? And the Tevinter Imperium? Gone, no more magocracy through slavery, indeed, no more slavery since the Tevinter mages would have no power to enforce this condition. The Templars would now be unnecessary and the Chantry would lose some, if not a lot, of its former power. The Blight? Nothing more than a memory now, soon to pass into legend.

But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

Modifié par KainD, 27 avril 2013 - 04:13 .

[OdanUrr]

KainD wrote...

But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

Tell that to a family that has lost their child because of magic. While it may not be the stand I would take, I can understand it all the same.

[Plaintiff]

OdanUrr wrote...

KainD wrote...

But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

Tell that to a family that has lost their child because of magic. While it may not be the stand I would take, I can understand it all the same.

Families that lose their children in car accidents don't stop driving.

[OdanUrr]

Plaintiff wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

KainD wrote...

But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

Tell that to a family that has lost their child because of magic. While it may not be the stand I would take, I can understand it all the same.

Families that lose their children in car accidents don't stop driving.

Would you tell them then to "suck it up" since people get killed all the time?

[Noctis Augustus]

OdanUrr wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

KainD wrote...

But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

Tell that to a family that has lost their child because of magic. While it may not be the stand I would take, I can understand it all the same.

Families that lose their children in car accidents don't stop driving.

Would you tell them then to "suck it up" since people get killed all the time?

Pretty much, yeah.

[Plaintiff]

OdanUrr wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

KainD wrote...

But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

Tell that to a family that has lost their child because of magic. While it may not be the stand I would take, I can understand it all the same.

Families that lose their children in car accidents don't stop driving.

Would you tell them then to "suck it up" since people get killed all the time?

I would tell them that personal grief isn't an excuse for bigotry.

[Realmzmaster]

Both technology and magic have their downsides. I cannot imagine what effect removing magic would have on a planetary basis. The assumption being made is that magic is not one of the forces holding everything in place. Mana and Fade seem to be connected to the other natural forces. If magic is one of the natural forces in Thedas removal could have dire consequences.

Also what about the effect on mages, severing that connection could mean stunted or lack of mental growth for mage newborns. The assumption is that mage newborns will grow normally if the connection is severed.
The other question is even if you say mages will not be made tranquil there could still be detrimental effects to the mage. You could effectively render a whole population of people useless.

[KainD]

OdanUrr wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

KainD wrote...

But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

Tell that to a family that has lost their child because of magic. While it may not be the stand I would take, I can understand it all the same.

Families that lose their children in car accidents don't stop driving.

Would you tell them then to "suck it up" since people get killed all the time?

As I would tell to a person that demands everyone to stop driving cars because someone they loved died because of a car accident. 

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

It's not even close. A car accident is just that, an accident and the number of victims are remarkably low when compared to the normal number of victims of magical related tragedies.
Even since the dawn of humanity, magic has been the primary cause of conflict, social division, slavery, destruction, death in Thedas.
The mages of Tevinter who will enslave any one who can't defend himself; the Chantry who will imprision mages for life out of fear; the mobs who will lynch any mage they can get their hands on; the mage terrorists; the unexperienced magelings setting their houses on fire with a sneeze or being possessed and killing dozens of people before being killed, the destruction of Arlathan, the Darkspawn, the Qunari chaining their mages for life.
Magic has brought more suffering to Thedas than anything else thus, comparing it to cars is a flawed argument. And given all of these tragedies that ocurred because of magic, I'd say you can't blame people for wanting magic, and not mages, to just be gone for good.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 avril 2013 - 04:45 .

[KainD]

@MisterJB
In US for example, every year there are about 6 million car accidents that cost the state 200+ billion dollars each year and about 50k people die each year because of these accidents.

But really even if the NUMBERS are different the PRINCIPLE is exactly the same.

[Realmzmaster]

MisterJB wrote...

KainD wrote...
But that is such an irrational and emotional stance, I can't take it seriously. Like people said in this thread it's exactly like getting rid of say cars all together just because we have car accidents. 

It's not even close. A car accident is just that, an accident and the number of victims are remarkably low when compared to the normal number of victims of magical related tragedies.
Even since the dawn of humanity, magic has been the primary cause of conflict, social division, slavery, destruction, death in Thedas.
The mages of Tevinter who will enslave any one who can't defend himself; the Chantry who will imprision mages for life out of fear; the mobs who will lynch any mage they can get their hands on; the mage terrorists; the unexperienced magelings setting their houses on fire with a sneeze or being possessed and killing dozens of people before being killed, the destruction of Arlathan, the Darkspawn, the Qunari chaining their mages for life.
Magic has brought more suffering to Thedas than anything else thus, comparing it to cars is a flawed argument. And given all of these tragedies that ocurred because of magic, I'd say you can't blame people for wanting magic, and not mages, to just be gone for good.

Magic is not the cause of slavery, nor conflict,or social division in Thedas. Slavery would exist in Thedas without magic. Second class citizenry would exist without magic. Conflicts on a massive scale would still happen. Everything you mention would still exist and magic is not necessary. What you are talking about is human desire for power and wealth. 

Technology has been used to the same ends. Magic and technology are just tools that can be used to achieve certain ends.

[MisterJB]

Not, the principle is not even close to being the same. A car is a method of transportation that can, ocasionally, crash. These crashes might be caused for a number of reasons but they are still accidents.

Magic, on the other hand, has lead to, for instance, social division with mages in Tevinter enslaving those born without magic and the Chantry answering by imprisioning the mages out of fear. Therefore, unlike cars, magic has lead to social division, bigotry, opression.
And that is only one way magic has negativelly affected Thedas.
Magic and cars are absolutely nothing alike either in terms of purpose or effects in society,

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...

Magic, on the other hand, has lead to, for instance, social division with mages in Tevinter enslaving those born without magic and the Chantry answering by imprisioning the mages out of fear. Therefore, unlike cars, magic has lead to social division, bigotry, opression.
 

Alright let's see what else leads to social divisions.. People's race, inborn trait such as looks and talents, political views and social views, wealth, religious views. 

I take it then if it was up to you, you would press a button that would make everyone look the same, have the same traits, feel the same and have same world views? 

Modifié par KainD, 27 avril 2013 - 05:06 .

[MisterJB]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Magic is not the cause of slavery, nor conflict,or social division in Thedas. Slavery would exist in Thedas without magic. Second class citizenry would exist without magic. Conflicts on a massive scale would still happen. Everything you mention would still exist and magic is not necessary. What you are talking about is human desire for power and wealth. 

Technology has been used to the same ends. Magic and technology are just tools that can be used to achieve certain ends.

"God created men. Samuel Colt made them equal." Which is a way of saying that technology is the great equalizer, allowing an untrained peasant to kill the most skilled warrior in the land. it can be constructed by anyone and used by anyone. It is not granted to a privileged few at birth. Therefore, it's much more desirable than magic.

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...

"God created men. Samuel Colt made them equal." Which is a way of saying that technology is the great equalizer, allowing an untrained peasant to kill the most skilled warrior in the land. it can be constructed by anyone and used by anyone. It is not granted to a privileged few at birth. Therefore, it's much more desirable than magic.

Not really, people are also priviliged by their birthplace, social concepts, and education posibilities. 
A boy from africa doesn't have access to a space shuttle, as much as maybe he would like to go to space, and it is not really completely up to that boy if he can get that shuttle or not. 

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
Alright let's see what else leads to social divisions.. People's race, inborn trait such as looks and talents, political views and social views, wealth, religious views. 

I take it then if it was up to you, you would press a button that would make everyone look the same, have the same traits, feel the same and have same world views? 

Racism, like wealth, is a social construct that would not exist were society to decide that it does not exist. It's extremely unlikely but Europe was also once plagued by feudalism which has since ceased.
Magic, on the other hand, has real effects placing some human beings above others since birth and, unlike racism or the monarchy,  you can't take the power away from the mages nor can you empower non-mages who will always be at a disadvantage when confronted with mages due to the latter's inherent ability to change the laws of nature.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 avril 2013 - 05:16 .

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...

Racism, like wealth, is a social construct that would not exist were society to decide that it does not exist. It's extremely unlikely but Europe was also once plagued by feudalism which has since ceased.
Magic, on the other hand, has real effects placing some human beings above others since birth and, unlike racism or the monarchy,  you can't take the power away from the mages nor can you empower non-mages who will always be at a disadvantage when confronted with mages due to the latter's inherent ability to change the laws of nature.

People are born biologically different, some people are stronger, faster, better looking and smarter than others, which has real effects and places these people above others in life. 
Other than that you can empower non-mages, look at Qunari. They meet fireballs with Cannon balls and black powder for example. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

What about the fact that technology itself is also a tool of social segregation and division? Only those who are allowed to by the resources holders are allowed to have that technology.

Using your example of samuel colt, during that era, such technological innovations were prohibited from being sold to african americans, under the guise of a tax policy. So no, technology is not a "equalizer" because all the power goes to the people who control the supply and manufacturing of the tech in question.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

KainD wrote...
Alright let's see what else leads to social divisions.. People's race, inborn trait such as looks and talents, political views and social views, wealth, religious views. 

I take it then if it was up to you, you would press a button that would make everyone look the same, have the same traits, feel the same and have same world views? 

Racism, like wealth, is a social construct that would not exist were society to decide that it does not exist. It's extremely unlikely but Europe was also once plagued by feudalism which has since ceased.
Magic, on the other hand, has real effects placing some human beings above others since birth and, unlike racism or the monarchy,  you can't take the power away from the mages nor can you empower non-mages who will always be at a disadvantage when confronted with mages due to the latter's inherent ability to change the laws of nature.

Templars can neutralize magic, and there exist artifacts specifically designed to negate the use of magic.

[BlueMagitek]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Yeah, the dwarves are doing fine, what with their losing almost all of their land, heritige, and people to darkspawn and their great deep roads infested with the creatures.

The stuff rampaging through the Deep Roads (flesh golems & darkspawn) are a result of magic.

[Cainhurst Crow]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Yeah, the dwarves are doing fine, what with their losing almost all of their land, heritige, and people to darkspawn and their great deep roads infested with the creatures.

The stuff rampaging through the Deep Roads (flesh golems & darkspawn) are a result of magic.

And magic could probably have helped clear out the darkspawn there, maybe create a few powerful seals to keep most of them out, but who am I to try and use power benefically.

Additionally, just as the case of andraste maybe being a blood mage or not, we don't know if darkspawn were actually created by the tevinter imperium exploring the fade, or if that was additional propoganda against them.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The stuff rampaging through the Deep Roads (flesh golems & darkspawn) are a result of magic.

The inception of the darkspawn is still an issue of debate, since Corypheus' words eluded to the idea that the City was already Black prior to their arrival, which could suggest Corypheus and his fellow Magisters weren't even the first darkspawn (which would fit with the dwarven records of the first accounts of the darkspawn).

[MisterJB]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

What about the fact that technology itself is also a tool of social segregation and division? Only those who are allowed to by the resources holders are allowed to have that technology.

Using your example of samuel colt, during that era, such technological innovations were prohibited from being sold to african americans, under the guise of a tax policy. So no, technology is not a "equalizer" because all the power goes to the people who control the supply and manufacturing of the tech in question.

But that technology. can be granted to anyone. The keyword here being "can".
African Americans have long since been allowed to purchase guns. Now imagine that there is a people of Earth being born with submachine guns from which they can't be separated and that no other people can manufacture their own guns.
That is magic. Magic can't be granted to anyone, it automatically and eternally places some above others. And while there are many factors on our own world which can limit one's ability to suceed, these factors can be overcome because, at the end of the day; there is no people on Earth who are impossibilited from using technology, earning money or learning because of a genetic predisposition.

There are already too many factors that make equality difficult. We don't need people being born with the ability to control the minds of others simply because they won the genetic lottery. Magic has done more harm than good in the history of Thedas.

[MisterJB]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
And magic could probably have helped clear out the darkspawn there, maybe create a few powerful seals to keep most of them out, but who am I to try and use power benefically.

So would gunpowder. It doesn't need to be magic.

Additionally, just as the case of andraste maybe being a blood mage or not, we don't know if darkspawn were actually created by the tevinter imperium exploring the fade, or if that was additional propoganda against them.

The Darkspawn don't eat, drink or breathe. Their entire reproductive system relies entirely on already existing races. The Taint enables things like the transfer of souls.
Such a species could not have developed naturally. Theirs is a magical origin, even if it wasn't caused by Corypheus and his ilk. Had there not been magic, there would not be Darkspawn.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 avril 2013 - 05:52 .

[BlueMagitek]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

And magic could probably have helped clear out the darkspawn there, maybe create a few powerful seals to keep most of them out, but who am I to try and use power benefically.

Additionally, just as the case of andraste maybe being a blood mage or not, we don't know if darkspawn were actually created by the tevinter imperium exploring the fade, or if that was additional propoganda against them.

Dwarves do not have mages, and if Tevinter has not managed to do so then it is likely not possible.  And yes, Tevinter would be the first to jump at devising such a thing, because if you didn't notice, the Blight ravaged their empire.

It does not matter if the Tevinters caused it or not; it is almost certainly from the Fade, which makes it magic, as much as demons and spirits are magic.  Morever, Darkspawn are capable of using the Taint to supply their magic, instead of connection to the Fade or Lyrium (which is implied to have some connection to the Fade).

And seriously, propoganda against Tevinter? No need, their actions speak loudly enough.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 27 avril 2013 - 05:58 .