245 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRealJayDee]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I'm almost tempted to run a survey now to see how many people who hate biowares ending simply becasue of shepards fate would react to what happens to ned stark in game of thrones.

Should be interesting.

Ned Stark is not a character whose adventures we'd played since before Robert Baratheon took the Iron Throne and whom we had a certain control over. He is a very specific character in a non-interactive story, with very specific strengths and flaws, and those in the context of the events of GoT brought his not so pleasant fate upon him. I'd say that many people who dislike Shep's fate would also be sorry for Eddard Stark's fate, but for different reasons.

Hm, they do have a lot similarities, come to think of it: both Lord Stark and Commander Shepard try to do their best to secure peace in their respective realms, and in the end they inevitably suffer a terrible and undeserved fate at the hands of a psychopathic murderous brat. 

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Choose from 3 bad choices to screw the galaxy or refuse to make a choice for the galaxy. They're all kind of bad.

No sense of victory, defiance, or fulfillment.

I kind of agree with the first part, but not at all with the second. 

And look at why you're making the choice. It's no longer about the Reapers at the end. It's about something entirely different.

It isn't about the Reapers? News to me.

[AlanC9]

TheRealJayDee wrote...


Hm, they do have a lot similarities, come to think of it: both Lord Stark and Commander Shepard try to do their best to secure peace in their respective realms, and in the end they inevitably suffer a terrible and undeserved fate at the hands of a psychopathic murderous brat. 

The big difference being that non-Refuse Shepards accomplish something.

[Argolas]

It's not necessarily only Shepard. It's also the fact that you left Shepard alone.

Shepard does not do things alone.

I was looking forward to standing this through with my friends, for better of for worse. Leaving Shepard alone for the defining moments of the game is one of the two main aspects of the ending that I can't forgive.

[Xilizhra]

I don't know, I found that making the final decision alone was an interesting twist.

I also found that it could have been quite a fascinating look at Shepard's personal priorities were it better implemented. It was highly imperfect, but I respect their intentions.

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know, I found that making the final decision alone was an interesting twist.

I also found that it could have been quite a fascinating look at Shepard's personal priorities were it better implemented. It was highly imperfect, but I respect their intentions.

"Moral decisions should not be made in a vacuum. If I do not ask the crew for their opinions, I could miss crucial context."

-EDI-

[Xilizhra]

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know, I found that making the final decision alone was an interesting twist.

I also found that it could have been quite a fascinating look at Shepard's personal priorities were it better implemented. It was highly imperfect, but I respect their intentions.

"Moral decisions should not be made in a vacuum. If I do not ask the crew for their opinions, I could miss crucial context."

-EDI-

True, but not all situations are optimal, and nothing in the Reaper war is. In any case, I think you're taking that out of context.

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know, I found that making the final decision alone was an interesting twist.

I also found that it could have been quite a fascinating look at Shepard's personal priorities were it better implemented. It was highly imperfect, but I respect their intentions.

"Moral decisions should not be made in a vacuum. If I do not ask the crew for their opinions, I could miss crucial context."

-EDI-

True, but not all situations are optimal, and nothing in the Reaper war is. In any case, I think you're taking that out of context.

I don't ask for optimal. I ask for characters, one of the central themes of Mass Effect, being dropped for no obvious reason. Well, unless the theory that shall not be named is true, but never mind that.

As for the quote: At least the first sentence is explicetely phrased as general statement. It does not rely on the particular context too much.

[Xilizhra]

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know, I found that making the final decision alone was an interesting twist.

I also found that it could have been quite a fascinating look at Shepard's personal priorities were it better implemented. It was highly imperfect, but I respect their intentions.

"Moral decisions should not be made in a vacuum. If I do not ask the crew for their opinions, I could miss crucial context."

-EDI-

True, but not all situations are optimal, and nothing in the Reaper war is. In any case, I think you're taking that out of context.

I don't ask for optimal. I ask for characters, one of the central themes of Mass Effect, being dropped for no obvious reason. Well, unless the theory that shall not be named is true, but never mind that.

As for the quote: At least the first sentence is explicetely phrased as general statement. It does not rely on the particular context too much.

So you wouldn't take "And now you stand alone, Shepard" as valid? I actually found Arrival interesting in part because it looked at what would happen if Shepard was alone; it's an interesting change, frequently.

[Argolas]

Valid? Yes. Good Writing? No.

And Shepard being alone in Arrival led to one of the worst cases of plot armor I have ever experienced in an otherwise rather well-written franchise. Shepard should have died during Arrival because he/she was alone. Shepard also should have failed in the ending because he/she was alone.

Modifié par Argolas, 28 avril 2013 - 10:33 .

[Iakus]

Argolas wrote...

It's not necessarily only Shepard. It's also the fact that you left Shepard alone.

Shepard does not do things alone.

I was looking forward to standing this through with my friends, for better of for worse. Leaving Shepard alone for the defining moments of the game is one of the two main aspects of the ending that I can't forgive.

"But take heart, look around you.  You are not in this fight alone"

Oh, wait <_<

[Xilizhra]

Argolas wrote...

Valid? Yes. Good Writing? No.

And Shepard being alone in Arrival led to one of the worst cases of plot armor I have ever experienced in an otherwise rather well-written franchise. Shepard should have died during Arrival because he/she was alone. Shepard also should have failed in the ending because he/she was alone.

Er, why? I'm not sure where the plot armor as such is.

[Argolas]

iakus wrote...

Argolas wrote...

It's not necessarily only Shepard. It's also the fact that you left Shepard alone.

Shepard does not do things alone.

I was looking forward to standing this through with my friends, for better of for worse. Leaving Shepard alone for the defining moments of the game is one of the two main aspects of the ending that I can't forgive.

"But take heart, look around you.  You are not in this fight alone"

Oh, wait <_<

I see you use MEHEM. That turned opening the Citadel into the defining moment in which you have Anderson with you. Shortly after Anderson dies, Shepard's crew come for him/her (which is the best part of MEHEM IMO), so your hero is never actually alone. It does help, doesn't it?

[Xilizhra]

tickle267 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Valid? Yes. Good Writing? No.

And Shepard being alone in Arrival led to one of the worst cases of plot armor I have ever experienced in an otherwise rather well-written franchise. Shepard should have died during Arrival because he/she was alone. Shepard also should have failed in the ending because he/she was alone.

Er, why? I'm not sure where the plot armor as such is.

the whole being sedated for 2 day's thing is kind of ridiculous wouldn't you say?

They kept having to increase the dose because Shepard's cyber-innards kept adapting to the sedative, and eventually it wore off completely.

[Xilizhra]

tickle267 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

tickle267 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Valid? Yes. Good Writing? No.

And Shepard being alone in Arrival led to one of the worst cases of plot armor I have ever experienced in an otherwise rather well-written franchise. Shepard should have died during Arrival because he/she was alone. Shepard also should have failed in the ending because he/she was alone.

Er, why? I'm not sure where the plot armor as such is.

the whole being sedated for 2 day's thing is kind of ridiculous wouldn't you say?

They kept having to increase the dose because Shepard's cyber-innards kept adapting to the sedative, and eventually it wore off completely.

but why didn't they just kill her in the first place? they were certainly able to do so and as far as i can tell there's no purpsoe for them to keep shepard alive.

Indoctrination makes you stupid. That's the only reason I can think of as to why she told Shepard their whole plan on the flight over, then said it couldn't be done.

[AresKeith]

Well Mac was the one who wrote Arrival

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Valid? Yes. Good Writing? No.

And Shepard being alone in Arrival led to one of the worst cases of plot armor I have ever experienced in an otherwise rather well-written franchise. Shepard should have died during Arrival because he/she was alone. Shepard also should have failed in the ending because he/she was alone.

Er, why? I'm not sure where the plot armor as such is.

First off, the several occasions were Shepard conveniently wakes up in just the right moments for no other reason than luck would qualify as plot armor already.

Then there is this:



Textbook example of plot armor. Shepard, with no weapon or armor (meaning also no shields or such) takes out two heavily armed, trained and prepared soldiers with fist punches that knock them out through their helmets.

Also there are stupid coincidences like the fact that Shepard can control security mechs from within his/her cell.


It has been an omnipresent theme in the trilogy that Shepard would not come far all alone. In ME3, this becomes even clearer as Shepard becomes more and more exhausted as the story progresses. There are several quotes reinforcing that theme, like this:


Garrus: How are you holding up, Shepard? This all has to be taking a toll.

Shepard: There’s only so much fight in a person. Only so much death you can take before…

Garrus: Before your friend picks you up, dusts you off, and tells you you’re the best damn soldier he’s ever met. We’ll get through this. We always do.


Also, the fact that the squaddies leave at all is poorly executed. Pre-EC, they just disappeared. Now, the Normandy launches a complete nonsense evac scene, and the motivations for squaddies to leave is ridiculous. For example, Javik would never leave. Javik does not care if he dies trying to kill the Reapers, depending on your decision on the memory shard he may be planning to die anyway even if he survived.

[Iakus]

Argolas wrote...


I see you use MEHEM. That turned opening the Citadel into the defining moment in which you have Anderson with you. Shortly after Anderson dies, Shepard's crew come for him/her (which is the best part of MEHEM IMO), so your hero is never actually alone. It does help, doesn't it?

It helps, yeah.

But the best part is while Shepard is mourning Anderson's death at the memorial, he/she is surrounded by the ME3 squad and crew. 

[Xilizhra]

Textbook example of plot armor. Shepard, with no weapon or armor (meaning also no shields or such) takes out two heavily armed, trained and prepared soldiers with fist punches that knock them out through their helmets.

My Shepards are biotic, so I'm never without shields or weapons. However, there are numerous scenes that make no sense from a biotic perspective, so quite frankly, we're even.

It has been an omnipresent theme in the trilogy that Shepard would not come far all alone. In ME3, this becomes even clearer as Shepard becomes more and more exhausted as the story progresses. There are several quotes reinforcing that theme, like this:

And she's only alone twice in the whole series.

Also, the fact that the squaddies leave at all is poorly executed. Pre-EC, they just disappeared. Now, the Normandy launches a complete nonsense evac scene, and the motivations for squaddies to leave is ridiculous. For example, Javik would never leave. Javik does not care if he dies trying to kill the Reapers, depending on your decision on the memory shard he may be planning to die anyway even if he survived.

It never bothered me with my own squadmates (Liara and one other, who wasn't Javik). Perhaps some things work better with some people?

[Argolas]

It is just not Mass Effect. Shepard is not the "lone wolf" that can stand alone. Shepard is a natural leader that makes a group more powerful than an army. As such, Shepard needs constant help and backup. In Mass Effect, that help happens to be well-written characters that allow strong emotional attachment. It's one of the key concepts that made Mass Effect an outstanding franchise.

The typical situation is Shepard hanging on a cliff and someone comes to pull him/her up again. It happens all the time. Minor examples are in ME3 on the Geth dreadnought where the elevator collapses or on Thessia when Kai Leng leaves. There are also two major examples: In ME2 in the suicide mission, when you let too many friends die, no one is there to help Shepard back on the Normandy, and he/she is not able to pull back up him/herself, so he/she dies. In the Citadel DLC, it becomes even clearer because hanging from the Normandy, it is the defining difference between Shepard and Shepard's clone about who survives: One tries to be the "lone wolf" (the clone even says so literally earlier) and dies because Shepard can't stand alone. Shepard him/herself has friends who help him/her back up and lives. They really can't make it more obvious.

It makes complete sense for someone like Shepard to be able to pull him/herself up again in all those situations without any help, but he/she can't. This is for the same reason as the elevator collapses in the Geth dread at all, or the same reason why Shepard didn't make a clean jump back on the Normandy at the end of the suicide mission in the first place: It's not reality, it's a story, and there are no coincidences. Those scenes played out the way they did because they showed us a point, and that is that Shepard needs help and would fail alone. A hero may be able to stand alone, but that would be a different kind of hero, not Shepard.

Modifié par Argolas, 28 avril 2013 - 11:18 .