245 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Anderson keeps on harping on how this is it, there is no turning back, no room for mistakes ect. Everyone that is going to the beam is ready to die if they have to, yet Shepard risk the whole mission to save two friends? Give me a break. It's plain stupid. Not to mention if Harbinger was not struck by the idiot ball he would have just shot the Normandy and killed everyone near the beam and then could continue to shoot lazers at the dumb humans charging.

[Xilizhra]

Argolas wrote...

It is just not Mass Effect. Shepard is not the "lone wolf" that can stand alone. Shepard is a natural leader that makes a group more powerful than an army. As such, Shepard needs constant help and backup. In Mass Effect, that help happens to be well-written characters that allow strong emotional attachment. It's one of the key concepts that made Mass Effect an outstanding franchise.

The typical situation is Shepard hanging on a cliff and someone comes to pull him/her up again. It happens all the time. Minor examples are in ME3 on the Geth dreadnought where the elevator collapses or on Thessia when Kai Leng leaves. There are also two major examples: In ME2 in the suicide mission, when you let too many friends die, no one is there to help Shepard back on the Normandy, and he/she is not able to pull back up him/herself, so he/she dies. In the Citadel DLC, it becomes even clearer because hanging from the Normandy, it is the defining difference between Shepard and Shepard's clone about who survives: One tries to be the "lone wolf" (the clone even says so literally earlier) and dies because Shepard can't stand alone. Shepard him/herself has friends who help him/her back up and lives. They really can't make it more obvious.

It makes complete sense for someone like Shepard to be able to pull him/herself up again in all those situations without any help, but he/she can't. This is for the same reason as the elevator collapses in the Geth dread at all, or the same reason why Shepard didn't make a clean jump back on the Normandy at the end of the suicide mission in the first place: It's not reality, it's a story, and there are no coincidences. Those scenes played out the way they did because they showed us a point, and that is that Shepard needs help and would fail alone. A hero may be able to stand alone, but that would be a different kind of hero, not Shepard.

You're right. However, thinking about it again, Shepard isn't alone here, and does have someone help to lift her up... it's just that no one likes this person and don't see it as really counting.

[EliteOp-11]

I still have yet to play through ME3 a second time. I played the DLC's but i dont think I'll ever go from start to finish on it again. The fact that I am locked into essentially 1 ending infuriates me. There should have been some way for me to save shepard and to live hapily ever after. There should have been a way for me to go out guns blazing destroying reapers left and right. There should have been a better self sacrifice ending. Better yet there should be multiple variations to the the above mentioned creating one of the most epic endings in VG history. Instead it was blue red or green.........

[Xilizhra]

EliteOp-11 wrote...

I still have yet to play through ME3 a second time. I played the DLC's but i dont think I'll ever go from start to finish on it again. The fact that I am locked into essentially 1 ending infuriates me. There should have been some way for me to save shepard and to live hapily ever after. There should have been a way for me to go out guns blazing destroying reapers left and right. There should have been a better self sacrifice ending. Better yet there should be multiple variations to the the above mentioned creating one of the most epic endings in VG history. Instead it was blue red or green.........

Um, if it's epic you want, I don't... quite get why ending a gigantic energy beam rocketing through the entire galaxy at once is lacking in epicness.

[AlanC9]

Maybe the problem is that the Reapers drop dead instead of exploding?

[Argolas]

The principle that made it good was always like this: Shepard is good, Shepard is probably the best, but he/she faces the impossible. Shepard can almost do it, but even the best is not good enough. Because Shepard is the best, he/she does not fall right away but manages to catch the cliff. Then there are Shepard's friends to pull him/her up, that means they come and make the final difference, so together they get the impossible done.

Of course the Catalyst does not count. Even ignoring the fact that it isn't one of those characters we are attached to (much less all of them), it is not like Shepard got close to defeating the Reapers and when he/she almost fails, the Catalyst comes to help Shepard, faces the reapers together with him/her and makes the difference that brings the reapers down. It is the leader of the reapers themselves that seemingly hands Shepard a choice over out of generosity. There is nothing great in there. There is no friendship, no heroism, nothing at all. And that is one of the reasons why the ending is bad.

Modifié par Argolas, 28 avril 2013 - 11:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Of course the Catalyst does not count. Even ignoring the fact that it isn't one of those characters we are attached to (much less all of them), it is not like Shepard got close to defeating the Reapers and when he/she almost fails, the Catalyst comes to help Shepard, faces the reapers together with him/her and makes the difference that brings the reapers down. It is the leader of the reapers themselves that seemingly hands Shepard a choice over out of generosity. There is nothing great in there. There is no friendship, no heroism, nothing at all. And that is one of the reasons why the ending is bad.

But Shepard's teamwork and suchlike was needed to get the Crucible there to begin with. It's the building and docking of the Crucible that shows Shepard's heroism as a person primarily. The final decision is one made when all the deeds without question have been done, and what's left... is only the question, and what you as a person truly value most.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

EliteOp-11 wrote...

I still have yet to play through ME3 a second time. I played the DLC's but i dont think I'll ever go from start to finish on it again. The fact that I am locked into essentially 1 ending infuriates me. There should have been some way for me to save shepard and to live hapily ever after. There should have been a way for me to go out guns blazing destroying reapers left and right. There should have been a better self sacrifice ending. Better yet there should be multiple variations to the the above mentioned creating one of the most epic endings in VG history. Instead it was blue red or green.........

Um, if it's epic you want, I don't... quite get why ending a gigantic energy beam rocketing through the entire galaxy at once is lacking in epicness.

Sad piano music is not epic, more so when it feels so out of place. End of an Era and Farewell in the Citadel dlc? Perfect for the scene it plays in. An end once and for all? Does not fit at all for it's scene.

[Cainhurst Crow]

iakus wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That's your personal opinion, I on the other hand feel that it was the galaxies united efforts that managed to construct, dock, and activate the crucible in the first place.

But while were on the subject of choices coming together from the game, let's consider that with the previous games shall we?

Where was the great many choices correlising in chooseing whether the council lived or died? I mean, if I favored humanity over the council, did that affect my choice? Had I done every side missson on the citadel, does that affect how the battle turns out? No, you pick fate of galactic society in a virtual bubble and nothing you did previously affects the outcome of what you did, say for your paragon or renegade meter. And even ME3 did that with the control ending.

Similar with Me2, what actually changes in the decision to keep or destroy the collector base in two different playthroughs of the game? About the only significant change is who you bring on your mission, and that's hardly seeing all your choices cumulate into a single moment. And at the end, you get virtually the same cutscene with the illusive man, only his star is now a different color, wow, big difference there.

ME3 was supposed to be where the choices finally came together.  Where the divergence comes and everyone's story gets personalized.  Wasn't that why we were told things had to be so on-rails in ME2?  Because everyone had to be in the same spot for the finale?

But ME3 was "the Super Bowl" Who cares about the regular season, remember?  And yet in the end, Shepard feels more helpless in ME3 than he was in ME1 or ME2.  Shepard must inflict something terrible on the galaxy to stop the Reapers.  And in the end, can't even save himself.

Perhaps that is where the huge divide comes from, becasue to me, if they couldn't get choices and consequences paying off in ME2 "down" enough for people here, than they weren't going to for ME3. I never expected my choices to manifest in the main story, and that fact that some of them did honestly surprised me.

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EliteOp-11 wrote...

I still have yet to play through ME3 a second time. I played the DLC's but i dont think I'll ever go from start to finish on it again. The fact that I am locked into essentially 1 ending infuriates me. There should have been some way for me to save shepard and to live hapily ever after. There should have been a way for me to go out guns blazing destroying reapers left and right. There should have been a better self sacrifice ending. Better yet there should be multiple variations to the the above mentioned creating one of the most epic endings in VG history. Instead it was blue red or green.........

Um, if it's epic you want, I don't... quite get why ending a gigantic energy beam rocketing through the entire galaxy at once is lacking in epicness.

Sad piano music is not epic, more so when it feels so out of place. End of an Era and Farewell in the Citadel dlc? Perfect for the scene it plays in. An end once and for all? Does not fit at all for it's scene.

Somewhat. I suppose they didn't want to go for unmitigated triumph, because of the inevitable cost to come from Destroy and the lesser one from Control and Synthesis.

[Argolas]

And because the final decision is different while at the same time the most important moment of all dropped all that, it's bad. The theme is there all the time as it should be, it even got reinforced again shortly before the ending when Shepard says something like "There is nobody I'd rather do this with". And then we learn that that Crucible, which indeed is something like the ultimate product of Shepard's heroism, is invaluated as "little more than a power source" and the solution ultimately relies on the Catalyst which is the reapers.

We weren't supposed to "strike a deal" with the reapers. That's just bullcrap. We were supposed to spit any "deal" they might offer us back in their faces because we don't need them. We were supposed to stand together and show them we are not insignificant. Remember this:

"This war has brought us pain and suffering and loss. But it's also brought us together, as soldiers, allies, friends. This bond that ties us together is something the Reapers will never understand. It's more powerful than any weapon. Stronger than any ship. It can't be taken or destroyed."

That is exactly what I am talking about. This is what we wanted.

[Xilizhra]

And because the final decision is different while at the same time the most important moment of all dropped all that, it's bad. The theme is there all the time as it should be, it even got reinforced again shortly before the ending when Shepard says something like "There is nobody I'd rather do this with". And then we learn that that Crucible, which indeed is something like the ultimate product of Shepard's heroism, is invaluated as "little more than a power source" and the solution ultimately relies on the Catalyst which is the reapers.

But the Crucible is what gave the Catalyst new possibilities, what was vital for the entire thing to work at all.

We weren't supposed to "strike a deal" with the reapers. That's just bullcrap. We were supposed to spit any "deal" they might offer us back in their faces because we don't need them. We were supposed to stand together and show them we are not insignificant. Remember this:

You weren't supposed to come back from the suicide mission alive, either. Personally, I greatly welcome anything that dilutes the "pure evil" variety of enemy into something with more nuance.

"This war has brought us pain and suffering and loss. But it's also brought us together, as soldiers, allies, friends. This bond that ties us together is something the Reapers will never understand. It's more powerful than any weapon. Stronger than any ship. It can't be taken or destroyed."

"Then I will tell you what you want to hear: I meant what I said."
Motivational speeches do not necessarily reflect objective reality. Especially since it can be taken and destroyed, and there are numerous possibilities for this even in ME3 (genophage, Udina, Rannoch).

[Ck213]

Argolas wrote...

We weren't supposed to "strike a deal" with the reapers. That's just bullcrap. We were supposed to spit any "deal" they might offer us back in their faces because we don't need them. We were supposed to stand together and show them we are not insignificant. Remember this:

"This war has brought us pain and suffering and loss. But it's also brought us together, as soldiers, allies, friends. This bond that ties us together is something the Reapers will never understand. It's more powerful than any weapon. Stronger than any ship. It can't be taken or destroyed."

That is exactly what I am talking about. This is what we wanted.

Which reminds of what annoyed me about the Matrix. Their goal was to bring the Matrix down, but instead made a deal as they fought off Agent Smith.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

We weren't supposed to "strike a deal" with the reapers. That's just bullcrap. We were supposed to spit any "deal" they might offer us back in their faces because we don't need them. We were supposed to stand together and show them we are not insignificant. Remember this:

You weren't supposed to come back from the suicide mission alive, either. Personally, I greatly welcome anything that dilutes the "pure evil" variety of enemy into something with more nuance.

Ok, this I need to address

You really think there isn't a "pure evil"?

Modifié par AresKeith, 29 avril 2013 - 12:14 .

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We weren't supposed to "strike a deal" with the reapers. That's just bullcrap. We were supposed to spit any "deal" they might offer us back in their faces because we don't need them. We were supposed to stand together and show them we are not insignificant. Remember this:

You weren't supposed to come back from the suicide mission alive, either. Personally, I greatly welcome anything that dilutes the "pure evil" variety of enemy into something with more nuance.

Ok, this I need to address

You really think there isn't a "pure evil"?

It's possible, it's just not interesting. And only on an individual basis; it's uninteresting to the point of bringing about complete uninvolvement from me if it exists on a specieswide level.

[Cainhurst Crow]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We weren't supposed to "strike a deal" with the reapers. That's just bullcrap. We were supposed to spit any "deal" they might offer us back in their faces because we don't need them. We were supposed to stand together and show them we are not insignificant. Remember this:

You weren't supposed to come back from the suicide mission alive, either. Personally, I greatly welcome anything that dilutes the "pure evil" variety of enemy into something with more nuance.

Ok, this I need to address

You really think there isn't a "pure evil"?

I do not like the concept of pure evil in fiction, no. I find it highly contrived, and the lazy mans way of making a villian.

Loghain was a great villian, Saren was a great villian, the arch demon and sovereign was not, imo, good villians at all. Nothing seperates their motivations or their goals in life from that of a damn bacteria or a wild animal encounter in these games, just spread and kill stuiff, yaaaaaaaaaay./sarcasm

To me, motivation and character is what makes a good villian in a story, not what they do or how imposing they are, those are only factors to add to them being the villians. It's as dumb to me as the cliche "bad guys who wants to take over the world becasue that's what bad guys do." crap motivation. It can be done right at times, but I don't feel the reapers, or darkspawn, or any bioware villain or many villians in general can pull off that type of non-motivation motive of just being pure evil well and in a engaging way.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 avril 2013 - 12:23 .

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...


But the Crucible is what gave the Catalyst new possibilities, what was vital for the entire thing to work at all.

Come on, that's just cheap.

Xilizhra wrote...

You weren't supposed to come back from the suicide mission alive, either. Personally, I greatly welcome anything that dilutes the "pure evil" variety of enemy into something with more nuance.

Totally missing the point. Coming back alive from the suicide mission is exactly the kind of heroism that Shepard is capable of. Striking a deal is not.

Xilizhra wrote...

"Then I will tell you what you want to hear: I meant what I said."
Motivational speeches do not necessarily reflect objective reality. Especially since it can be taken and destroyed, and there are numerous possibilities for this even in ME3 (genophage, Udina, Rannoch).

Javik is not the hero. Javik does not make these things he says actually possible. Shepard is.

EDIT: I think I'll make a thread about this. It deserves one.

Modifié par Argolas, 29 avril 2013 - 12:20 .

[Xilizhra]

Come on, that's just cheap.

How? The Catalyst outright says it.

Totally missing the point. Coming back alive from the suicide mission is exactly the kind of heroism that Shepard is capable of. Striking a deal is not.

Calling it a "deal" isn't entirely accurate. You've basically gotten the Reapers to say that their solution was a failure, and to create a new one entirely.

Javik is not the hero. Javik does not make these things he says actually possible. Shepard is.

So, just because Shepard says something, it's true?

[Cainhurst Crow]

The cult of shepard is real, clone shep was right after all.

[AresKeith]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We weren't supposed to "strike a deal" with the reapers. That's just bullcrap. We were supposed to spit any "deal" they might offer us back in their faces because we don't need them. We were supposed to stand together and show them we are not insignificant. Remember this:

You weren't supposed to come back from the suicide mission alive, either. Personally, I greatly welcome anything that dilutes the "pure evil" variety of enemy into something with more nuance.

Ok, this I need to address

You really think there isn't a "pure evil"?

I do not like the concept of pure evil in fiction, no. I find it highly contrived, and the lazy mans way of making a villian.

Loghain was a great villian, Saren was a great villian, the arch demon and sovereign was not, imo, good villians at all. Nothing seperates their motivations or their goals in life from that of a damn bacteria or a wild animal encounter in these games, just spread and kill stuiff, yaaaaaaaaaay./sarcasm

To me, motivation and character is what makes a good villian in a story, not what they do or how imposing they are, those are only factors to add to them being the villians. It's as dumb to me as the cliche "bad guys who wants to take over the world becasue that's what bad guys do." crap motivation. It can be done right at times, but I don't feel the reapers, or darkspawn, or any bioware villain or many villians in general can pull off that type of non-motivation motive of just being pure evil well and in a engaging way.

I can understand that but it comes to something like the Reapers, I can't really see that with them

[PsyrenY]

Argolas wrote...

Totally missing the point. Coming back alive from the suicide mission is exactly the kind of heroism that Shepard is capable of. Striking a deal is not.

In what way are you "striking a deal?" All 3 uses of the Crucible involve casting the Reapers' overlord into the depths, forever. What "deal?"

[TheRealJayDee]

Xilizhra wrote...

It never bothered me with my own squadmates (Liara and one other, who wasn't Javik). Perhaps some things work better with some people?

It was really bizzare watching this scene on my playthrough.

Shepard: Javik, you're hurt!
Javik: It is... merely a scratch, Commander. We must continue with our advance.
Vega: Kind of a baaad scratch, but whatever, let's get this over with!
Shepard: Yeah...I'm calling in the Normandy for an immediate evacuation.
Javik: What?
Vega: What?
Shepard: I can't accept losing you, Javik. This mission is not worth your life.
Javik: But... this mission is my life...
James: I serously don't think calling the Normandy now is a good idea. We're still on our feet - let's just get to this damn beam!
Shepard: No. No, the price would be too high if i let you continue... *calls Normandy*
Harbinger: Just what is going on over there...?
Javik: I will not abandon this attack. I will not fail my people again.
Vega: Guys, for real, see the giant Reaper lurking in the background?! Not cool - we need to move now!
Shepard: ...Joker says they'll be here any second. Everything will be alright, guys!
Javik: I will not go. Not ever. Even you can't make me leave this battlefield, Commander.
Shepard: I am Commander Shepard, there's nothing I can't do!
Vega: ...let's just move, Shepard... please?! We're putting the mision and the Normandy at risk here...
*Normandy arrives*
Harbinger: WTF?! Cannot... comprehend... must... take a break...
Shepard: It was an honour fighting at your side, gentlemen, but now it is time for you to go. I have this!
Javik: Commander, this is madness. We can still fight... we can reach the beam... together.
Vega: Yeah, we're good. Even Harbinger seems to have stopped... working... or whatever. Now's our chance!
Shepard: Go, my friends, and live - live for me! Joker, get them and all my other squadmates away from this terrible war.
Vega: With all due respect, this is waaay too moronic even for you, loco.
Javik: ...I was born to give my life ending the Reaper threat... *tears up*
Shepard: James, with all due respect: get the hell out of my warzone asap and take that Prothean diva with you. That's an order.
Vega: Shepard...
Shepard: GTFO now or I swear to God I will end you myself!!
Vega: ...let's go, Javik. *drags Javik into the Normandy*
Javik: ...I am the avatar of vengeance... *cries*
Shepard: Now, where were we? 
*Normandy leaves,Shepard runs towards the beam and starts humming*
Shepard: "...fight like a Krogan, run like a leopard..."

[TheRealJayDee]

wtf dp?! gomenasai!

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 29 avril 2013 - 01:06 .

[10K]

Bizinha wrote...

Shepard + Crew = Mass Effect

Bioware can make other games with name 'mass effect', with the planets, the races... For me not the same thing.

It's like play Uncharted without Drake, Tomb Raider without Lara, Max Payne without Max, Metal Gear without Snake, God of War without Kratos, Mario Games without Mario....

I agree, Shepard is ME. IMHO I think the next ME games will not be as good as this trilogy. Personally I'm not looking forward to any future installments. Only thing in BW I'm interested in is their new IP and the DA series. ME is dead in my book. Well...unless they bring Shepard back      

Modifié par mosesarose, 29 avril 2013 - 02:10 .

[hiraeth]

Argolas wrote...

It is just not Mass Effect. Shepard is not the "lone wolf" that can stand alone. Shepard is a natural leader that makes a group more powerful than an army. As such, Shepard needs constant help and backup. In Mass Effect, that help happens to be well-written characters that allow strong emotional attachment. It's one of the key concepts that made Mass Effect an outstanding franchise.

The typical situation is Shepard hanging on a cliff and someone comes to pull him/her up again. It happens all the time. Minor examples are in ME3 on the Geth dreadnought where the elevator collapses or on Thessia when Kai Leng leaves. There are also two major examples: In ME2 in the suicide mission, when you let too many friends die, no one is there to help Shepard back on the Normandy, and he/she is not able to pull back up him/herself, so he/she dies. In the Citadel DLC, it becomes even clearer because hanging from the Normandy, it is the defining difference between Shepard and Shepard's clone about who survives: One tries to be the "lone wolf" (the clone even says so literally earlier) and dies because Shepard can't stand alone. Shepard him/herself has friends who help him/her back up and lives. They really can't make it more obvious.

It makes complete sense for someone like Shepard to be able to pull him/herself up again in all those situations without any help, but he/she can't. This is for the same reason as the elevator collapses in the Geth dread at all, or the same reason why Shepard didn't make a clean jump back on the Normandy at the end of the suicide mission in the first place: It's not reality, it's a story, and there are no coincidences. Those scenes played out the way they did because they showed us a point, and that is that Shepard needs help and would fail alone. A hero may be able to stand alone, but that would be a different kind of hero, not Shepard.

+1