I have wanted to start a warrior in the Circle of Magi, when I noticed that every Templar in the tower appears to be a human male. Just wondering if the Chantry wanted to control mages, and dwarves are immune to magic, so... why not pick the race with magic resistance? (Might be overthinking it here, but i'm just curious.)
Why didn't the chantry fill the Templar order with Dwarves?
Débuté par
SomniariKess1124
, avril 26 2013 11:46
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 12:08
Riverdaleswhiteflash
-
- Members
- 7 951 messages
No, it's a good idea in theory. If I can have an army of dwarven templars in any future DA game, I'm doing it.
The problem with the Chantry being able to do so is that there aren't many dwarven warriors who would take vows under the Chantry.
The problem with the Chantry being able to do so is that there aren't many dwarven warriors who would take vows under the Chantry.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 avril 2013 - 06:42 .
#3
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 12:15
SomniariKess1124
-
- Members
- 180 messages
If they're worried about getting "Surfacer" status, why not do the same thing the king did with Grey Wardens. The whole "retain your caste" part. Plus, they'd make themselves useful in the process. Apparently, the only thing I hear about dwarves is that they put out lyrium and have awesome warriors that they send out to fight darkspawn.
#5
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 12:53
ejoslin
-
- Members
- 11 745 messages
You're assuming that dwarves, who have a completely different religion, would want to be Templars.
Modifié par ejoslin, 27 avril 2013 - 12:53 .
#6
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 01:07
SomniariKess1124
-
- Members
- 180 messages
Alistair himself said that you don't need to be particularily religious to be a Templar. As far as I know, you don't need "Super holy Maker power" to be a Templar. From my position, most of it looks like all you need is training.
#7
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 01:19
Riverdaleswhiteflash
-
- Members
- 7 951 messages
The templars are a religious order. They barely put up with Alistair, and he is loosely an Andrastian. The dwarves are ancestor worshipers, any who wanted to be Chantry templars would have to convert. They can't find enough who are willing.
#8
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 01:24
ejoslin
-
- Members
- 11 745 messages
Yep, I'm not saying that dwarves couldn't do the templar thing -- I'm saying that dwarves probably wouldn't be interested. Much like I have no interest in becoming a nun. Plus, since the Chantry keeps Templars under control by keeping them addicted to lyrium, I'm not sure that they would want Templars who were resistant to the addiction.
#9
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 02:11
SomniariKess1124
-
- Members
- 180 messages
Hm... good point with the addiction thing, but still, I don't know if religious beliefs are that huge to a Templar's abilities. I still remember that one merchant that his head scrambled by lyrium in his blood. Dwarves might be persuaded if you excluded them from the "Religious Teachings" class. Mostly, I just think that if you give them the training, tell them their job and who they're fighting, they'll do it.
Modifié par SomniariKess1124, 27 avril 2013 - 02:18 .
#10
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 02:42
ejoslin
-
- Members
- 11 745 messages
I still don't get why they would be interested. I'm sorry -- I just don't see it. Most people do not like joining religious orders of religions they do not follow, even if they do get to wear cool armor.
Oooh, hmmm, cool armor. Do you think a dwarf would care? They may, especially if it involved nug wrestling.
Oooh, hmmm, cool armor. Do you think a dwarf would care? They may, especially if it involved nug wrestling.
#11
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 03:08
Riverdaleswhiteflash
-
- Members
- 7 951 messages
SomniariKess1124 wrote...
Hm... good point with the addiction thing, but still, I don't know if religious beliefs are that huge to a Templar's abilities. I still remember that one merchant that his head scrambled by lyrium in his blood. Dwarves might be persuaded if you excluded them from the "Religious Teachings" class. Mostly, I just think that if you give them the training, tell them their job and who they're fighting, they'll do it.
You're confused as to my point. You don't need religious beliefs to be a templar. It's just that the Chantry wants the templars to have them as a control mechanism. Nor would the templars serve a religious order they don't believe in.
#12
Posté 27 avril 2013 - 04:40
Bhryaen
-
- Members
- 1 082 messages
As we saw with "Brother" Burkel, the dwarves for the most part don't have any interest in Chantry business, considered a, yes, "surfacer" thing. You'd have to convince dwarves not only to join into a religious organization that has no bearing on dwarven life, lore, and culture, but also to leave Orzammar for the surface to do so. Obviously there are dwarves who make a go of life Topside, but they're not exactly commonplace outside Orzammar.
But, yeah, maybe the Chantry could recruit a few dwarves like merceneries with the promise of compensation and honors to train as Templars and kill acolyte abominations- not unthinkable. If a Burkel can grow up in Orzammar but insist on wearing the robes and building a worship center for a religion that has nothing whatsoever to do with dwarves in its core storyline, some surface dwarves might go for the Templar life. It just doesn't look like something dwarves are going to be generally inclined toward, regardless of their racial advantages. It's a cultural thing. Dwarves on the surface will be more likely to seek out actual mercenary work or perhaps merchant work or skilled trades.
Dwarf parents also don't worry their kid will be possessed by a demon or will set fire to people with their will, so Templar concerns aren't exactly anything "close to home" that would resonate with dwarves. Darkspawn, yes. But maleficars and demons? Not so much.
But, yeah, maybe the Chantry could recruit a few dwarves like merceneries with the promise of compensation and honors to train as Templars and kill acolyte abominations- not unthinkable. If a Burkel can grow up in Orzammar but insist on wearing the robes and building a worship center for a religion that has nothing whatsoever to do with dwarves in its core storyline, some surface dwarves might go for the Templar life. It just doesn't look like something dwarves are going to be generally inclined toward, regardless of their racial advantages. It's a cultural thing. Dwarves on the surface will be more likely to seek out actual mercenary work or perhaps merchant work or skilled trades.
Dwarf parents also don't worry their kid will be possessed by a demon or will set fire to people with their will, so Templar concerns aren't exactly anything "close to home" that would resonate with dwarves. Darkspawn, yes. But maleficars and demons? Not so much.
#13
Posté 29 avril 2013 - 01:10
caradoc2000
-
- Members
- 7 550 messages
Because templars, like many amusement park rides, have a minimum height requirement.
#14
Posté 29 avril 2013 - 09:31
Shadow of Light Dragon
-
- Members
- 5 179 messages
Let's say we encountered an Andrastian dwarf who wanted to be a templar.
Let us also say that the Andrastian religion accepts that dwarves are children of the Maker in equal standing to humans.
While it's not accurately represented in the games, templars get their abilities by the constant use of lyrium, to the point they are addicted.
Dwarves are known to be highly resistant to lyrium. While they have a small but natural resistance to magic, they would not be able to perform many templar abilities used to subdue mages without being susceptible to lyrium.
If this was possible, I could see dwarves as full templars. If it's not, then I can't see them as any more than a sub-section of the templar branch, sent in as shields to protect the Big Guns while the Holy Smites are prepared.
Let us also say that the Andrastian religion accepts that dwarves are children of the Maker in equal standing to humans.
While it's not accurately represented in the games, templars get their abilities by the constant use of lyrium, to the point they are addicted.
Dwarves are known to be highly resistant to lyrium. While they have a small but natural resistance to magic, they would not be able to perform many templar abilities used to subdue mages without being susceptible to lyrium.
If this was possible, I could see dwarves as full templars. If it's not, then I can't see them as any more than a sub-section of the templar branch, sent in as shields to protect the Big Guns while the Holy Smites are prepared.
#15
Posté 29 avril 2013 - 01:03
VampireSoap
-
- Members
- 1 200 messages
The Chantry is actually a sinister organization, much like the Cxxxxlic Church in real life, they are really corrupted, racist, and backwards ignorant. The only difference between the two is that they have a different kind of gender bias 
So you think a dwarf, male or female, will ever be accepted into the Chantry's elite warrior group?
So you think a dwarf, male or female, will ever be accepted into the Chantry's elite warrior group?
#16
Posté 29 avril 2013 - 06:32
Riverdaleswhiteflash
-
- Members
- 7 951 messages
There's Catholic priests of every race. So why not?
That's not to say it'll ever be common, since the Chantry really is biased that way. But I doubt that's universally the case.
If this was a problem, I'd expect to have seen it in Origins when picking specs for a dwarf Warden or companion.
That's not to say it'll ever be common, since the Chantry really is biased that way. But I doubt that's universally the case.
Shadow Of Light Dragon wrote...
Dwarves are known to be highly resistant to lyrium. While they have a small but natural resistance to magic, they would not be able to perform many templar abilities used to subdue mages without being susceptible to lyrium.
If this was a problem, I'd expect to have seen it in Origins when picking specs for a dwarf Warden or companion.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 avril 2013 - 01:33 .
#17
Posté 29 avril 2013 - 10:50
Lavaeolus
-
- Members
- 744 messages
It's a lovely idea in theory. Dwarves, being magically resistant, would be great at fighting mages, assuming they can do all the templar stuff (I made Oghren a templar, so theoretically, but the specialisations were always a bit loose with the "rules" of Thedas -- Blood Mage Wynne is mentioned often, no?). But that's in theory.
The first problem you'd run into is finding dwarves that want to be templars. I assume the templars are highly religious, what with all the "Maker this" and "Maker that", and most dwarves are not raised Andrastian, especially the Orzammar ones. But, ignoring the religious stuff? Most dwarves are less inclined to view mages as a problem. They're never at risk of producing one, and the ones in Orzammar have probably only ever heard of these "magi". Now, I won't deny, an abomination running through the streets is disruptive to everyone, but rarely is a dwarf directly affected by magic. Abominations are fairly rare after all, disregarding Kirkwall; Kirkwall was a generally awful place.
But, there are of course going to be some dwarves who might be interested. So the second problem: those that do would probably weird out the Chantry. Despite what they may officially say, they're a human-centric religion. Especially if it turns out that dwarves aren't going to become lyrium-addicts willing to blindly follow the Chantry for their fix.
Admittedly, I wouldn't be surprised to find a dwarf templar. But they're going to be pretty rare, all things considered.
The first problem you'd run into is finding dwarves that want to be templars. I assume the templars are highly religious, what with all the "Maker this" and "Maker that", and most dwarves are not raised Andrastian, especially the Orzammar ones. But, ignoring the religious stuff? Most dwarves are less inclined to view mages as a problem. They're never at risk of producing one, and the ones in Orzammar have probably only ever heard of these "magi". Now, I won't deny, an abomination running through the streets is disruptive to everyone, but rarely is a dwarf directly affected by magic. Abominations are fairly rare after all, disregarding Kirkwall; Kirkwall was a generally awful place.
But, there are of course going to be some dwarves who might be interested. So the second problem: those that do would probably weird out the Chantry. Despite what they may officially say, they're a human-centric religion. Especially if it turns out that dwarves aren't going to become lyrium-addicts willing to blindly follow the Chantry for their fix.
Admittedly, I wouldn't be surprised to find a dwarf templar. But they're going to be pretty rare, all things considered.
Modifié par Mr Maniac, 29 avril 2013 - 10:52 .
#18
Posté 02 mai 2013 - 01:10
Shadow of Light Dragon
-
- Members
- 5 179 messages
Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Shadow Of Light Dragon wrote...
Dwarves are known to be highly resistant to lyrium. While they have a small but natural resistance to magic, they would not be able to perform many templar abilities used to subdue mages without being susceptible to lyrium.
If this was a problem, I'd expect to have seen it in Origins when picking specs for a dwarf Warden or companion.
Well, if raw lyrium was supposed to kill mages I would have expected that to be a problem in my fight against Branka.
And if lyrium exposure was a problem for regular humans and mages, then they would never be able to max out the Legionnaire Scout spec without going insane.Mechanics do not always accurately reflect the lore. We have to be expected to exert a little common sense when they bump into each other.
Where dwarves, lyrium and templar abilities are concerned, my comments are of course largely speculative. But I don't consider them far-fetched, logically speaking, and I didn't say a dwarven templar would definitely be impossible.
#19
Posté 02 mai 2013 - 01:22
Shadow of Light Dragon
-
- Members
- 5 179 messages
The simpler answer, however, is probably that there are no dwarven templars because the Chantry's stance is that dwarves are not children of the Maker.
That's apparently straight from the new World of Thedas book, and is being discussed here.
That's apparently straight from the new World of Thedas book, and is being discussed here.
#20
Posté 04 mai 2013 - 07:54
Bhryaen
-
- Members
- 1 082 messages
Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
The simpler answer, however, is probably that there are no dwarven templars because the Chantry's stance is that dwarves are not children of the Maker.
That's apparently straight from the new World of Thedas book, and is being discussed here.
Too bad we don't have a conversation option to inform "Brother" Burkel of this piece of official Chantry position-taking. Either he's woefully uninformed or is a deceptive con-man to lure dwarf coinage into Chantry coffers or his own (or both). It's not as if a single dwarf asks you a riddle in the Gauntlet "challenge". Elves, yes, get a mention. The Ancestors... nil.
This whole question just begs another: why aren't Ferelden's elves and humans thronging to the Deep Roads to assist the dwarves in fighting back the darkspawn? They may not have any racial advantage over dwarves for fighting spawners, but they've got more of an incentive to assist in wiping out darkspawn than dwarves have in assisting the Chantry with killing the occasional abomination. The answer to both would take into account that neither venture into each other's "turf" all that often and that consequently they're more likely to leave it as "somebody else's problem".
But OK, maybe it's dwarven resistance to magic making Chantry lyrium-pusher thugs less interested in recruiting them. Conspiracy theorists!
#21
Posté 04 mai 2013 - 08:04
Riverdaleswhiteflash
-
- Members
- 7 951 messages
With regards to Burkel, it might also be that the Redcliffe Chantry is more open-minded than that. I think he says that's where he's from, and that's also the Chantry that's open-minded about the Mages Collective.
As for the "someone else's problem" thing, I think that's a large part of it. Though that wouldn't account for the surface dwarves.
As for the "someone else's problem" thing, I think that's a large part of it. Though that wouldn't account for the surface dwarves.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 04 mai 2013 - 10:33 .
#22
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:36
Bhryaen
-
- Members
- 1 082 messages
Just to add more confusion- I just met the priest in Ostagar after returning from the Wilds. This is how the interaction went...
Priest: "Ah! I suspect you are one of the new Gray Wardens. Will you accept the Maker's blessing?"
Jagan: "As you can see, mine are dwarven kin."
Priest: "I do. Though I cannot pass on the respects of your ancestors, the Maker looks kindly on all who will receive Him."
Jagan: "Bah! It means little to me."
So even at Ostagar the Chantry will try to rope dwarves into the fold with the promise of a deity "looking kindly" on them. (Not sure what makes their Maker "look nastily" on someone or what is supposed to happen when their Maker makes a look at folks- nice or nasty.) How that squares with dwarves not being the Maker's children, I dunno. Apparently the Maker's Ostagar brats are allowed to bestow their Maker's "blessings" onto other people's kids, and those other people's kids are allowed to "receive" those "blessings"- whatever that means (accept +1 luck for 3 hrs?)- even if they aren't his brats. But that doesn't necessarily make the Ostagar Chantry's approach more open-minded or even different from the exclusive one taken elsewhere, just more generous with "blessings".
Anyway, as I'd mentioned earlier, whether surface dwarves or fresh from Orzammar, dwarves don't suffer from the risk of their children becoming abominations or setting the house on fire with their will, so the Templar's business would still be "someone else's problem" for dwarves in that regard. Dwarves becoming Templars- whether surface caste or still with the stone sense- would only be doing humans and elves a favor (or ill service) which doesn't apply to themselves at all, never will. But that's not exactly the same with humans helping dwarves kill darkspawn in the Deep Roads since obviously darkspawn do directly affect humans, albeit only every few hundred yrs or so when a blight strikes.
Priest: "Ah! I suspect you are one of the new Gray Wardens. Will you accept the Maker's blessing?"
Jagan: "As you can see, mine are dwarven kin."
Priest: "I do. Though I cannot pass on the respects of your ancestors, the Maker looks kindly on all who will receive Him."
Jagan: "Bah! It means little to me."
So even at Ostagar the Chantry will try to rope dwarves into the fold with the promise of a deity "looking kindly" on them. (Not sure what makes their Maker "look nastily" on someone or what is supposed to happen when their Maker makes a look at folks- nice or nasty.) How that squares with dwarves not being the Maker's children, I dunno. Apparently the Maker's Ostagar brats are allowed to bestow their Maker's "blessings" onto other people's kids, and those other people's kids are allowed to "receive" those "blessings"- whatever that means (accept +1 luck for 3 hrs?)- even if they aren't his brats. But that doesn't necessarily make the Ostagar Chantry's approach more open-minded or even different from the exclusive one taken elsewhere, just more generous with "blessings".
Anyway, as I'd mentioned earlier, whether surface dwarves or fresh from Orzammar, dwarves don't suffer from the risk of their children becoming abominations or setting the house on fire with their will, so the Templar's business would still be "someone else's problem" for dwarves in that regard. Dwarves becoming Templars- whether surface caste or still with the stone sense- would only be doing humans and elves a favor (or ill service) which doesn't apply to themselves at all, never will. But that's not exactly the same with humans helping dwarves kill darkspawn in the Deep Roads since obviously darkspawn do directly affect humans, albeit only every few hundred yrs or so when a blight strikes.
#23
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:37
Shadow of Light Dragon
-
- Members
- 5 179 messages
*shrug @Bhryaen* Just because the Chantry's official stance is (apparently) that dwarves are not of the Maker doesn't mean some dwarves won't disagree and live like Andrastians. It also doesn't mean that the Chantry won't maybe revise its stance one day.
I rather like my lyrium theory, personally, because I get a kick out of it when one bit of lore (templars get their abilities from lyrium) can be seen to logically screw with another bit of lore (dwarves are highly resistant to lyrium), but it's just that. A theory.
As for the darkspawn...yeah, it'd be nice if everyone knew how to use a weapon, knew how to fight, got along with every other Fereldan, trusted the Wardens and weren't afraid to go underground where countless darkspawn are known to thrive.
Would have made DA:O easier, not needing those stupid contracts.
I rather like my lyrium theory, personally, because I get a kick out of it when one bit of lore (templars get their abilities from lyrium) can be seen to logically screw with another bit of lore (dwarves are highly resistant to lyrium), but it's just that. A theory.
As for the darkspawn...yeah, it'd be nice if everyone knew how to use a weapon, knew how to fight, got along with every other Fereldan, trusted the Wardens and weren't afraid to go underground where countless darkspawn are known to thrive.
Would have made DA:O easier, not needing those stupid contracts.
#24
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 09:07
SomniariKess1124
-
- Members
- 180 messages
Eh, I never really considered the "want to be Templars" problem, but I just figured, give them a little persuading, plus the fact that, and I've always wondered why apostates don't do this in the first place:
Apostates might see Orzammar as a safe haven, because one: It is full of dwarves, and no Templars whatsoever, and two: they could go there under the impression of being "traders/surface merchants" or even go Anders' route and pose as a Healer to the casteless. The casteless sure look like they need one, honestly.
Apostates might see Orzammar as a safe haven, because one: It is full of dwarves, and no Templars whatsoever, and two: they could go there under the impression of being "traders/surface merchants" or even go Anders' route and pose as a Healer to the casteless. The casteless sure look like they need one, honestly.
#25
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 08:47
Bhryaen
-
- Members
- 1 082 messages
@SoLD
Oh, I wasn't seriously dismissing the idea of Chantry recruitment interest being directly proportional to the degree to which you're susceptible to lyrium addiction- just admitting that it's one of those questions ultimately unanswerable except with speculation and that plenty of other ideas are equally valid to and even mutually inclusive of the ideas I'd mentioned- i.e., intended as self-deprecating humor. Calling you a "conspiracy theorist" was only supposed to evoke amusement. Ah, well, amusement fail. (lol) Actually I agreed with your (and others') points entirely, makes perfect sense. For the Chantry to be able to hone dwarves efficiently as their pet mage-hunters there would have to be a special wing of the Templars that draws their mage-thwarting skills not from a lyrium-induced trance but from some form of ultra-dwarf-gene-enhancement therapy.
Templar Trainer: "One more time, recruits. If you ever want to be good Templars you'll have to practice daily cultivating your natural dwarf ability. Feeeel your dwarfness. Let it flowww through you..."
Templar Throthgar: "Uh, Teach..."
Templar Trainer: "Yes, Throthgar?"
Templar Throthgar: "Why do you think you can train us in honing our dwarfness when you're a human?"
Templar Trainer: "Well... the Maker tells me so."
Templar Throthgar: "Ah, well, that explains it... Right..." *concentrates* "Dwarf powers..... ACTIVATE!"
Oh, and as I'd mentioned in my first post on this thread, yes, there's no reason why some dwarves might not take to the Chantry or Templar life, and Burkel is the perfect exception to the rule. As to the Chantry changing its position, this is just as funny as the Pope declaring that God now says it's ok to eat meat on Fridays. I mean, either it's divinely ordained (*snicker*) or it's all just made up as they go along and subject to the changing morays of the society around it. But I'd rather dwarves not get caught up in it regardless. Their Ancestor worship looks more healthy...
Oh, I wasn't seriously dismissing the idea of Chantry recruitment interest being directly proportional to the degree to which you're susceptible to lyrium addiction- just admitting that it's one of those questions ultimately unanswerable except with speculation and that plenty of other ideas are equally valid to and even mutually inclusive of the ideas I'd mentioned- i.e., intended as self-deprecating humor. Calling you a "conspiracy theorist" was only supposed to evoke amusement. Ah, well, amusement fail. (lol) Actually I agreed with your (and others') points entirely, makes perfect sense. For the Chantry to be able to hone dwarves efficiently as their pet mage-hunters there would have to be a special wing of the Templars that draws their mage-thwarting skills not from a lyrium-induced trance but from some form of ultra-dwarf-gene-enhancement therapy.
Templar Trainer: "One more time, recruits. If you ever want to be good Templars you'll have to practice daily cultivating your natural dwarf ability. Feeeel your dwarfness. Let it flowww through you..."
Templar Throthgar: "Uh, Teach..."
Templar Trainer: "Yes, Throthgar?"
Templar Throthgar: "Why do you think you can train us in honing our dwarfness when you're a human?"
Templar Trainer: "Well... the Maker tells me so."
Templar Throthgar: "Ah, well, that explains it... Right..." *concentrates* "Dwarf powers..... ACTIVATE!"
Oh, and as I'd mentioned in my first post on this thread, yes, there's no reason why some dwarves might not take to the Chantry or Templar life, and Burkel is the perfect exception to the rule. As to the Chantry changing its position, this is just as funny as the Pope declaring that God now says it's ok to eat meat on Fridays. I mean, either it's divinely ordained (*snicker*) or it's all just made up as they go along and subject to the changing morays of the society around it. But I'd rather dwarves not get caught up in it regardless. Their Ancestor worship looks more healthy...
Modifié par Bhryaen, 05 mai 2013 - 08:52 .
