181 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The big difference here is that CDPR is a small company with passionate people who are not only game developers, but also gamers. That in combination with the fact that they're not owned by a mega-corporation (like EA) means they aren't "just a company who exploits the current situation".

This part is all wrong. Please fact check statements.

[Isichar]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I am less than impressed with their marketing for this new game. It's sexist (Robo girl in a submissive pose, bloodied and wearing a slip is the only female they have revealed..) and offensive. And I am bored to death of the Cyberpunk setting being milked EVERYWHERE!

Seriously? This is like the Bioshock Infinite cover art story. Is this really something worth feeling offended over? The more and more I listen to what people get offended over in regards to video games on these forums, the harder it becomes to take others feelings seriously.

I'm pretty sure that Elizabeth wasn't wearing a slip - she's dressed fairly modestly all things considered. What I find both hilarious and hypocritical is seeing people who have always complained about Miranda's stiletto heels and/or her outfit heap praise upon cyber-chick in that Cyberpunk 2077 trailer - despite the fact that she's wearing a slip and stiletto heels.

I  mean, really? That's what you wear when trying to escape from/to confront a large number of police officers with futuristic weapons and tech, eh? I'd like to see someone try to come up with a logical reason for cyber-chick to be dressed in the way that she is in that particular situation. To me it looks like she ran straight out of a strip club or one of those Victoria's Secret runway shows. If there's some backstory about her hiding out and performing as an exotic dancer a la Zhora in Bladerunner, then...I'd just find that derivative.

I'm actually interested in the game's progress since I like the cyberpunk genre, but man, that outfit is the last thing I'd want my character wearing at any point it time, unless it happens during some sort of romance scene (although I'd probably find it cheesy). I also hope that if they have a fixed protagonist he/she is less of a bore than Geralt (who's probably the most deathly dull character that I've ever had the misfortune of playing).

Context. Dont pretend you get whats going on if you dont.

And if you feel offended by the mere suggestion of sexism in a game then stick to tetris because you obviously are not old enough to deal with concepts like sexism, racism and other iffy subject in fictional work and maybe should avoid it altogether.

[Blooddrunk1004]

Persephone wrote...

I am less than impressed with their marketing for this new game. It's sexist (Robo girl in a submissive pose, bloodied and wearing a slip is the only female they have revealed..) and offensive. And I am bored to death of the Cyberpunk setting being milked EVERYWHERE!

I think you are overreacting.
The last think anyone would think about this trailer is sexism or being offensive to women. Don't tell me that Cyberpunk 2077 insulted you but Miranda, Jack, Morrigan trailers or any Final Fantasy trailer didn't, cause you are bull****ing.

Miranda - geting ass shoot in every scene in ME2
Jack -  half naked woman going into battle
Ashley - bigger boobs and Miranda treatment
Liara - again bigger boobs

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 28 avril 2013 - 06:52 .

[wsandista]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I am less than impressed with their marketing for this new game. It's sexist (Robo girl in a submissive pose, bloodied and wearing a slip is the only female they have revealed..) and offensive. And I am bored to death of the Cyberpunk setting being milked EVERYWHERE!

I think you are overreacting.
The last think anyone would think about this trailer is sexism or being offensive to women. Don't tell me that Cyberpunk 2077 insulted you but Miranda, Jack, Morrigan trailers or any Final Fantasy trailer didn't, cause you are bull****ing.

Miranda - geting ass shoot in every scene in ME2
Jack -  half naked woman going into battle
Ashley - bigger boobs and Miranda treatment
Liara - again bigger boobs

I didn't realize implants were so popular...

[AtreiyaN7]

Isichar wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I am less than impressed with their marketing for this new game. It's sexist (Robo girl in a submissive pose, bloodied and wearing a slip is the only female they have revealed..) and offensive. And I am bored to death of the Cyberpunk setting being milked EVERYWHERE!

Seriously? This is like the Bioshock Infinite cover art story. Is this really something worth feeling offended over? The more and more I listen to what people get offended over in regards to video games on these forums, the harder it becomes to take others feelings seriously.

I'm pretty sure that Elizabeth wasn't wearing a slip - she's dressed fairly modestly all things considered. What I find both hilarious and hypocritical is seeing people who have always complained about Miranda's stiletto heels and/or her outfit heap praise upon cyber-chick in that Cyberpunk 2077 trailer - despite the fact that she's wearing a slip and stiletto heels.

I  mean, really? That's what you wear when trying to escape from/to confront a large number of police officers with futuristic weapons and tech, eh? I'd like to see someone try to come up with a logical reason for cyber-chick to be dressed in the way that she is in that particular situation. To me it looks like she ran straight out of a strip club or one of those Victoria's Secret runway shows. If there's some backstory about her hiding out and performing as an exotic dancer a la Zhora in Bladerunner, then...I'd just find that derivative.

I'm actually interested in the game's progress since I like the cyberpunk genre, but man, that outfit is the last thing I'd want my character wearing at any point it time, unless it happens during some sort of romance scene (although I'd probably find it cheesy). I also hope that if they have a fixed protagonist he/she is less of a bore than Geralt (who's probably the most deathly dull character that I've ever had the misfortune of playing).

Context. Dont pretend you get whats going on if you dont.

And if you feel offended by the mere suggestion of sexism in a game then stick to tetris because you obviously are not old enough to deal with concepts like sexism, racism and other iffy subject in fictional work and maybe should avoid it altogether.

I'm so very glad that you actually know me so well that you think you can comment on me, my thought processes, my age (late 30s, by the way), etc. First off, I'm a book designer - I occasionally format books far more graphic than that Cyberpunk 2077 trailer or any Witcher game.

In fact, I had to format a book of rather poorly written erotica the other day and also inserted edits into a similar book of erotica earlier in the week. Their questionable quality levels aside, both of them were quite graphic - something that doesn't make me bat an eyelash at all.

So, I tell you what: I'll stick to my professional work - which includes very mature subject matter on occasion - and you can stick to inserting your foot into your mouth. As for me not being able to handle mature topics that include racism and darker subjects, maybe I should point you at my reading list and books such as The Man Who Broke into Auschwitz (Denis Avey) or The Fiery Trial (Eric Foner) or To Kill a Mockingbird (Harper Lee).

I never said that cyber-chick's stripper outfit was offensive - I just found it silly, illogical, and stupid in the situation she was in. There is no question of the context in my eyes - cyber-chick was confronting a bunch of police in what amounts to a stripper outfit.

EDIT: Oh, and let me add King Leopold's Ghost (Adam Hochschild) in case you want to read about the brutality inflicted on Africans in the Congo by Leopold II. Racism and colonialism - it's, like, totally light reading. *sarcasm* Oh, and try The Road by Cormac McCarthy - unless you get all upset by cannibalism and an awful lot of darkness. *additional sarcasm*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 28 avril 2013 - 07:34 .

[Isichar]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I am less than impressed with their marketing for this new game. It's sexist (Robo girl in a submissive pose, bloodied and wearing a slip is the only female they have revealed..) and offensive. And I am bored to death of the Cyberpunk setting being milked EVERYWHERE!

Seriously? This is like the Bioshock Infinite cover art story. Is this really something worth feeling offended over? The more and more I listen to what people get offended over in regards to video games on these forums, the harder it becomes to take others feelings seriously.

I'm pretty sure that Elizabeth wasn't wearing a slip - she's dressed fairly modestly all things considered. What I find both hilarious and hypocritical is seeing people who have always complained about Miranda's stiletto heels and/or her outfit heap praise upon cyber-chick in that Cyberpunk 2077 trailer - despite the fact that she's wearing a slip and stiletto heels.

I  mean, really? That's what you wear when trying to escape from/to confront a large number of police officers with futuristic weapons and tech, eh? I'd like to see someone try to come up with a logical reason for cyber-chick to be dressed in the way that she is in that particular situation. To me it looks like she ran straight out of a strip club or one of those Victoria's Secret runway shows. If there's some backstory about her hiding out and performing as an exotic dancer a la Zhora in Bladerunner, then...I'd just find that derivative.

I'm actually interested in the game's progress since I like the cyberpunk genre, but man, that outfit is the last thing I'd want my character wearing at any point it time, unless it happens during some sort of romance scene (although I'd probably find it cheesy). I also hope that if they have a fixed protagonist he/she is less of a bore than Geralt (who's probably the most deathly dull character that I've ever had the misfortune of playing).

Context. Dont pretend you get whats going on if you dont.

And if you feel offended by the mere suggestion of sexism in a game then stick to tetris because you obviously are not old enough to deal with concepts like sexism, racism and other iffy subject in fictional work and maybe should avoid it altogether.

I'm so very glad that you actually know me so well that you think you can comment on me, my thought processes, my age (late 30s, by the way), etc. First off, I'm a book designer - I occasionally format books far more graphic than that Cyberpunk 2077 trailer or any Witcher game.

In fact, I had to format a book of rather poorly written erotica the other day and also inserted edits into a similar book of erotica earlier in the week. Their questionable quality levels aside, both of them were quite graphic - something that doesn't make me bat an eyelash at all.

So, I tell you what: I'll stick to my professional work - which includes very mature subject matter on occasion - and you can stick to inserting your foot into your mouth. As for me not being able to handle mature topics that include racism and darker subjects, maybe I should point you at my reading list and books such as The Man Who Broke into Auschwitz (Denis Avey) or The Fiery Trial (Eric Foner) or To Kill a Mockingbird (Harper Lee).

I never said that cyber-chick's stripper outfit was offensive - I just found it silly, illogical, and stupid in the situation she was in. There is no question of the context in my eyes - cyber-chick was confronting a bunch of police in what amounts to a stripper outfit.

EDIT: Oh, and let me add King Leopold's Ghost (Adam Hochschild) in case you want to read about the brutality inflicted on Africans in the Congo by Leopold II. Racism and colonialism - it's, like, totally light reading. *sarcasm* Oh, and try The Road by Cormac McCarthy - unless you get all upset by cannibalism and an awful lot of darkness. *additional sarcasm*

I will say it again. No context was given as to why anything was happening the way it happened. Anything in regards to why she is dressed that way is speculation. Calling something illogical when you have no context as to what is happening is just wrong.

The age comment was in regards to those who feel "offended" by the mere presence of sexism, racism, sex or whatever in and form of media. If you can handle that then dandy.

Modifié par Isichar, 28 avril 2013 - 08:01 .

[BrookerT]

I have never really enjoyed the Witcher series. Mainly because of the lack of interesting characters and rather bad pacing and combat. However, I like CD projekt red as a game maker, and I can't wait for Cyberpunk, it hope it turns out better than the witcher.

[Dutchess]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I never said that cyber-chick's stripper outfit was offensive - I just found it silly, illogical, and stupid in the situation she was in. There is no question of the context in my eyes - cyber-chick was confronting a bunch of police in what amounts to a stripper outfit.

Perhaps she didn't plan to confront a bunch of heavily armed cyber police guys when she went out of the door this morning? The backstory that was provided with the trailer was that people with too many cyber implants can snap and go crazy. The cyber lady we saw likely had this happen and went on a killing rampage (she is surrounded by dead people when the cyber police forces her into submission). So, yes, context does matter. 
By the way, her skin is pretty much bullet proof. We see bullets that hit her explode into little pieces without doing any harm. She doesn't need additional armor. It would only slow her down or hinder her arm blades.



I find it funny that there were people who tried to defend EA in the thread about EA winning the golden poo again, and here is a thread about a company who actually seems to care about their customers and treat them with respect, and there are people trying to come up with reasons why CDProjekt Red isn't as good as they appear and how they might become just like EA in the future. From the interviews I have seen with the developers they strike me as driven, passionate people with a clear vision of what they and the fans want and how to achieve that. They have the humility to say which aspects weren't liked by the fans (like QTEs) and decide to remove them for the next game or can provide clear ideas about how to improve upon aspects that needed work. They don't hide behind phrases like "vocal minority" and "artistic integrity". 

So for now CDProjekt has earned my trust and loyalty as a customer. They have impressed me with their work and their attitude. Of course they might change for the worse somewhere in the future. But I'm not going to hold that over their head in advance. I'm looking forward to The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Persephone wrote...

I am less than impressed with their marketing for this new game. It's sexist (Robo girl in a submissive pose, bloodied and wearing a slip is the only female they have revealed..) and offensive. And I am bored to death of the Cyberpunk setting being milked EVERYWHERE!

No DRM. Great.

Maybe CDPR is the RPG Messiah. I haven't been converted yet. And I've known them before "The Witcher RULZ!" was a thing.

You don't even know that is a woman to begin with - In cyberpunk you can have full body modifications, Also funny that you don't react to the "woman" being portrayed as a mass murdere who has just killed 14 people but rather "her" pose.

Meh.

[bEVEsthda]

I'm actually not fond of CdR's take on RPG. I dislike the combat. I dislike the fixed protagonist. These are not games I would normally play for RP reasons. And I'm not impressed on their public stance on DRM, as I feel DRM is ultimately needed to protect developers' work and investment. There are too many thieves around.

But I will buy every game of theirs. Because it's topnotch quality, and they do something which I don't think EA have ever done, not ever, - take their audience seriously, and take their own game seriously. And you immediately feel this when you play it. Compared to DA2 and ME2, ME3, it feels just like a  wind of fresh air and freedom, after having been locked up in a damp & dark dungeon together with imbecils for a year.

Instead of looking at various fan-groups of teen-cultures as the potential customers (despite these groups' obvious lack of financial strength for games), regarding the customers like some kind of insects, a population to be studied to understand what kind of sugar they like, CDR seem to just assume that their audience is mature, reasonably intelligent and educated. CDR, Valve and Bethesda do that. Seems to work for them.

Bioware seemed to do that too, in the past. But now, we get Flemeth redone as a milf-Final-Fantasy-witch.
What does this say about what has happened to Bioware? And will they find a way to get back into shape?

[zeypher]

Yup, i hate it when people use BS like sexism to defend their preferred company, when we know bio does use sexism to sell their games as well. Double standards much? or just plain hypocrisy.

[Ravensword]

Persephone wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Cyberpunk 2077 looks promising as hell. I hope they keep it closer to a PnP game than the Witcher however, and use a full text dialogue system with silent PC.

I haven't looked through the thread, but has the "Waaaaaaaaaaaaah! The Witcher was sexist! Entitled white male gamers!" ranting already occurred?

No, but a variant of it has already started which is the "Whaaaaaaaaaaaa! Cyberpunk 2070 is a sexist game devloped by white male gamers for white male gamers!"

That wasn't what I said at all. I said that the teaser/marketing was problematic to me and why. Can't say anything about the game itself and I haven't as it isn't out yet. Besides, a game can have problematic issues and still be a damn entertaining experience that is well written.

I was being hyperbolic. However, we mustn't get too caught up on the teaser trailer. Plenty of games out there that use promotional content that can be considered sexist. Would a game advert that features a woman w/ exposed cleavage be considered sexist? Just askin'.

renjility wrote...

-snip-

I find it funny that there were people who tried to defend EA in the thread about EA winning the golden poo again, and here is a thread about a company who actually seems to care about their customers and treat them with respect, and there are people trying to come up with reasons why CDProjekt Red isn't as good as they appear and how they might become just like EA in the future. From the interviews I have seen with the developers they strike me as driven, passionate people with a clear vision of what they and the fans want and how to achieve that. They have the humility to say which aspects weren't liked by the fans (like QTEs) and decide to remove them for the next game or can provide clear ideas about how to improve upon aspects that needed work. They don't hide behind phrases like "vocal minority" and "artistic integrity". 

So for now CDProjekt has earned my trust and loyalty as a customer. They have impressed me with their work and their attitude. Of course they might change for the worse somewhere in the future. But I'm not going to hold that over their head in advance. I'm looking forward to The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077.

Indeed, indeed. Such as referring to CDPR as devs being "smug" or "pandering" to gamers and being "full of themselves." And as you said, some of them did defend EA in that thread, yet start whining about a gaming company that actually seems to repect their customers. I guess it's like when someone is so used to eating **** that when something actually edible is on the menu, one gets repulsed. I don't know.

Modifié par Ravensword, 28 avril 2013 - 12:09 .

[Volus Warlord]

So, if we call people that think Bioware can do no wrong Biodr0nes, what should we call the people that incessantly praise CDPR?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

CDPRobots?

Modifié par CrustyBot, 28 avril 2013 - 02:07 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm actually not fond of CdR's take on RPG. I dislike the combat. I dislike the fixed protagonist. These are not games I would normally play for RP reasons. And I'm not impressed on their public stance on DRM, as I feel DRM is ultimately needed to protect developers' work and investment. There are too many thieves around.

Just thought I would tackle this one really quick, since the thread is technically about CD Projekt's stance on DRM.

DRM is not effective at reducing piracy. It deters no one but the most casual of pirates - those who only know how to Google a bit torrent, pretty much. Cracks for DRM-required games are not difficult to break and are usually out within a few weeks of a game's release. DRM never deters piracy long-term and does not help reduce losses in large scale like it proponents advocate.

All DRM does is delay when pirates can get the game free. A truly great game often has such great buzz and high demand, that players do not want to wait for a cracked/pirated version to come out. But games that are tepid or have mixed reviews do not spurn immediate pirate effort, and so it may still wind up easier for players to buy it. But as often is the case, players just lose interest and don't play the game at all. This is the fallacy of all DRM and piracy-deterent efforts - companies assume that all people who pirate would actually buy the game... but this is not a true statement.

Where DRM has its worth is in digital distribution software.

DRM doesn't increase profits in its deterent efforts (if anything, a decently effective DRM system would cost more than lost sales in nearly every instance). Similarly, a digital distribution software is very difficult to make successful. After all, you need people to go to your store in order to even see if they would want to buy something. Without high traffic, it is hard to get many developers to sell their product through your service... which means your traffic is going to be lower without a variety of products. It is a real catch-22.

But if you marry a DRM service, where customers must go to play their game, with a digital distribution service? Suddenly you have got a hostage (literally) audience to view your products and listen to your marketing. If anyone had a store where millions of people HAD to come in on a regular basis, whether they wanted to or not, they could sell sand to Jawas.

Hence, that is the "value" of DRM. It is saddled with a digital distribution service in order to sell things to you which, in turn, makes the DRM expense itself sustainable, since they are making enough money from the digital distribution to make up for the fact that they aren't really turning pirates into customers at anywhere near the rate that the cost of such a DRM program would take.

So, I'm not sure DRM is "needed" in the least. Again, it is not effective in preventing artists from protecting their work. It simply works as a way to scare away some piracy traffic in the first few weeks while pushing paying customers into a service that pushes more products at them. Which is fine, but it is not secretly keeping everyone honest by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it keeping intact the "integrity" of any "artist's" work.

[Seboist]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I am less than impressed with their marketing for this new game. It's sexist (Robo girl in a submissive pose, bloodied and wearing a slip is the only female they have revealed..) and offensive.

I like how "progressive" Bioware uses similar character designs to what you see in Ninja Gaiden or Dead or Alive as well.

[ShepnTali]

Think I saw her in a Whitesnake video...

[MerinTB]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm actually not fond of CdR's take on RPG. I dislike the combat. I dislike the fixed protagonist. These are not games I would normally play for RP reasons. And I'm not impressed on their public stance on DRM, as I feel DRM is ultimately needed to protect developers' work and investment. There are too many thieves around.

Just thought I would tackle this one really quick, since the thread is technically about CD Projekt's stance on DRM.

DRM is not effective at reducing piracy. It deters no one but the most casual of pirates - those who only know how to Google a bit torrent, pretty much. Cracks for DRM-required games are not difficult to break and are usually out within a few weeks of a game's release. DRM never deters piracy long-term and does not help reduce losses in large scale like it proponents advocate.

Piracy is nowhere near the problem it is claimed to be by so many. 

1 - "Lost potential sales" is a myth.  They attribute EVERY pirated copy into a sale that they WOULD HAVE made, and the truth is that the vast majority of those pirated copies would never have been sales (or were sales already...) 
A - A ridiculous amount of people who torrent stuff will use it as a "try it, and if I like it I'll buy it" method.  If you frequent places where people get torrent links, or peruse the Readme files attached to torrents, they all strongly encourage you to buy something if you try it and like it.  Is this the legal way to do it, or how companies want you to try the game?  No.  But whole business models ARE built around the reality that if you let people try your product in its final form, if they like it they will buy from you.  And those are VERY SUCCESSFUL business models.  Some of these people try products they end up not liking, then they delete the download - so this is the closest to a "lost sale" - for the people who'd buy something without knowing they'd like it.  But, I'd argue vehemently, you gain more "I wouldn't risked buying it, but now that I've played it through I love it and did buy it" than you lose to "I tried it from a torrent, meh, didn't like it so won't buy it."
B - There are people who download files for no-CD cracks and to remove the DRM (which is usually quite intrusive) even though they bought copies.  Again, not what the companies want, but they got the sale.
C - There are thieves and cheapskates.  They are a minority of people who torrent / bootleg / etc., but they exist.  They are the ones that the DRM is supposed to be targetting.  Problem is - the vast majority of this minority will NEVER buy a legitimate copy.  If they can't get it for free, they will forgo the product.  Some of these people may not think the games are worth the money, some may misguidedly think they are entitled to free copies or that they are "sticking it to the man", and some are truly poor and are getting more games than they could ever afford.  In any of those cases, the DRM is still cracked (sometimes, like Starcraft 2, the night the game is released!) and they can still get their illegal copies without buying a legitimate one... and if, somehow, you did stop them from being able to do this, these are the people you would never see buy a copy anyway.

2. Good products sell, and if people like the creators of projects they WILL support said creators.  Web comics, web series, free to play games - the famous experiment that Neil Gaiman did with American Gods - you give your products away for free, and your consumers will support you to the extent that they are able to afford.  Look at the Kickstarters for OotS and Diesel Sweeties and Multiplex.  Heck, look at the Kickstarters for games, where the donators all but demand NO DRM - and these are people who are pre-paying for a product not yet made, so clearly they aren't looking to "pirate" a copy for themselves - and you have lots of people donating well over what the price of buying the game would be.

---

DRM doesn't work.  It only hurts the legitimate customers and gives the companies employing it black eyes.  Game companies would be far better off fostering the good will that comes from taking an anti-DRM stance (Kickstarter games, CDPR, etc.) and saving the money they waste on developing and implenting ineffective copy-protecting schemes.  It's like building a five foot high fence with a gate that lets people through one at a time after checking them at the gate for "contraband" - very inconvenient for those trying to get in legitimately, but others will just jump or climb the fence, and someone will bring bolt cutters opening a huge hole that lets everyone through.  Then you need to barb wire the top fo the fence, hire guards to patrol the fence, etc... and all your are "guarding" is the selling of soda from machines that you can get free refills from, and you are trying to stop people from bringing their own cups from home.  Was it worth the ineffective fence, gate, barbed wire and all the guards just to ****** off your soda customers and not really stop those people with bolt cutters who start using their own lookouts for the guards?  Especially if so many are taking the hole instead of the gate because it is quicker and they didn't bring their own cups but, once inside the fence, still buy the soda - they just bypassed your annoying security.


End of story.

Modifié par MerinTB, 28 avril 2013 - 04:11 .

[HoonDing]

With Kickstarter around, CDPR is no longer relevant in the RPG genre. Then again, neither is BioWare or any other AAA developer.

[Fast Jimmy]

HoonDing wrote...

With Kickstarter around, CDPR is no longer relevant in the RPG genre. Then again, neither is BioWare or any other AAA developer.

Ha! I think you are DRASTICALLY overstating things. 

Kickstarter is great and amazing, but it is not going to kill the AAA game industry, just like YouTube, Netflix or Hulu hasn't killed the TV or movie industries. They have changed it, for sure... but they never will kill the giants of their industries. Not unless some very huge changes happen. 

[LPPrince]

HoonDing wrote...

With Kickstarter around, CDPR is no longer relevant in the RPG genre. Then again, neither is BioWare or any other AAA developer.