181 réponses à ce sujet

[Roflbox]

Morroian wrote...

zeypher wrote...

Yup, i hate it when people use BS like sexism to defend their preferred company, when we know bio does use sexism to sell their games as well. Double standards much? or just plain hypocrisy.

Morrigan isn't in a submissive pose in that pic.

Cleavage cleavage everywhere!

Modifié par Roflbox, 28 avril 2013 - 09:17 .

[Blooddrunk1004]

Morroian wrote...

zeypher wrote...

Yup, i hate it when people use BS like sexism to defend their preferred company, when we know bio does use sexism to sell their games as well. Double standards much? or just plain hypocrisy.

Morrigan isn't in a submissive pose in that pic.

www.youtube.com/watch

Feel insulted enough?

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 28 avril 2013 - 10:27 .

[bussinrounds]

MerinTB wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

HoonDing wrote...

With Kickstarter around, CDPR is no longer relevant in the RPG genre. Then again, neither is BioWare or any other AAA developer.

Ha! I think you are DRASTICALLY overstating things. 

Kickstarter is great and amazing, but it is not going to kill the AAA game industry, just like YouTube, Netflix or Hulu hasn't killed the TV or movie industries. They have changed it, for sure... but they never will kill the giants of their industries. Not unless some very huge changes happen. 

Kickstarter is a game changer, yes.  It is NOT the death knell of publishers or studios, however.  I'd actually argue that it is a god-send for both, even if they themselves won't realize it.

Not that It's gonna be the end of publishers/AAA gaming or anything, but crpg fans won't have to settle for games like these that have some rpg elements, but are also trying to appeal to the action/mainstream audience. 

[In Exile]

bussinrounds wrote...
Not that It's gonna be the end of publishers/AAA gaming or anything, but crpg fans won't have to settle for games like these that have some rpg elements, but are also trying to appeal to the action/mainstream audience. 

Instead they'll have to settle for games that try to appeal to the create-your-own-party and D&D crowd.

Modifié par In Exile, 28 avril 2013 - 11:20 .

[bussinrounds]

In Exile wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...
Not that It's gonna be the end of publishers/AAA gaming or anything, but crpg fans won't have to settle for games like these that have some rpg elements, but are also trying to appeal to the action/mainstream audience. 

Instead they'll have to settle for games that try to appeal to the create-your-own-party and D&D crowd.

F*** yea.   That's what we want.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Roflbox wrote...

Morroian wrote...

zeypher wrote...

Yup, i hate it when people use BS like sexism to defend their preferred company, when we know bio does use sexism to sell their games as well. Double standards much? or just plain hypocrisy.

Morrigan isn't in a submissive pose in that pic.

Cleavage cleavage everywhere!

[In Exile]

bussinrounds wrote...
F*** yea.   That's what we want.

No, that's what you want.

D&D is a garbage system for any kind of meaningful P&P RP with horrible conventions like XP/kill instead of XP/quest, and create-your-own party RPGs are nothing more than empty shell murderbots. You don't get more swallow and appeal-to-mass-market than D&D.

A game like PS:T is nothing like Icewind Dale, neither of which is like BG, which straddles the gap between the two.

Not to mention that neither of these games is like Ultima or Daggerfall. So pretending like there's some single group of RPG fans is divorced from reality.

[saMoorai]

Roflbox wrote...

Morroian wrote...

zeypher wrote...

Yup, i hate it when people use BS like sexism to defend their preferred company, when we know bio does use sexism to sell their games as well. Double standards much? or just plain hypocrisy.

Morrigan isn't in a submissive pose in that pic.

Cleavage cleavage everywhere!

Pfft. 

Broodmother is a Strong, Proud, Independent Darkspawn who don't need no Warden. 

[Volus Warlord]

So now we are debating pose? Holy ****, you guys really work hard to manufacture a superiority complex.

[bussinrounds]

That's what the people who backed these KS projects want.  They're making games for a specific audience.  What's so hard to understand about that ?

Modifié par bussinrounds, 29 avril 2013 - 12:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...
F*** yea.   That's what we want.

No, that's what you [/u]want. 

D&D is a garbage system for any kind of meaningful P&P RP with horrible conventions like XP/kill instead of XP/quest, and create-your-own party RPGs are nothing more than empty shell murderbots. You don't get more swallow and appeal-to-mass-market than D&D.

A game like PS:T is nothing like Icewind Dale, neither of which is like BG, which straddles the gap between the two.

Not to mention that neither of these games is like Ultima or Daggerfall. So pretending like there's some single group of RPG fans is divorced from reality.

I'd say this isn't fair. I don't think any of the big name Kickstarters (PE, Planescape 2.0, Wasteland 2, ShadowRun) are anything like a "build your own party/D&D" experience. In terms of crowd-sourcing, a game like Grimoire might fit this bill, of a truly old-school, build your own party, D&D mechanics-type gameplay... but Grimoire is a true minority, in terms of both funding and interest. 

I think it may be more legitimate to say developers are going to have to look at more old school mechanics, such as more tactically-minded combat, diverse leveling opportunities, equipment/items/inventory that is more than just offering the highest DPS for twenty minutes before getting an upgrade, encounter design that doesn't lean on the crutch of level-scaling, use of non-combat skills/abilities, etc. 

The WoW-ification of RPGs major developers have chased in the past five years has been a shocking and disturbing trend for many gamers who feel this violates what PnP RPGs were all about and what older systems tried to capture. Having more diversity is a good thing. To assume Dragon Age, The Witcher or The Elder Scrolls are the only way to do RPGs, period, is a rather limited way of viewing the market. The recent Kickstarters have shown that the old ways of doing an RPG are still totally valid in today's market. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 29 avril 2013 - 02:10 .

[Volus Warlord]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


I'd say this isn't fair. I don't think any of the big name Kickstarters (PE, Planescape 2.0, Wasteland 2, ShadowRun) are anything like a "build your own party/D&D" experience. In terms of crowd-sourcing, a game like Grimoire might fit this bill, of a truly old-school, build your own party, D&D mechanics-type gameplay... but Grimoire is a true minority, in terms of both funding and interest. 

I think it may be more legitimate to say developers are going to have to look at more old school mechanics, such as more tactically-minded combat, diverse leveling opportunities, equipment/items/inventory that is more than just offering the highest DPS for twenty minutes before getting an upgrade, encounter design that doesn't lean on the crutch of level-scaling, use of non-combat skills/abilities, etc. 

The WoW-ification of RPGs major developers have chased in the past five years has been a shocking and disturbing trend for many gamers who feel this violates what PnP RPGs were all about and what older systems tried to capture. Having more diversity is a good thing. To assume Dragon Age, The Witcher or The Elder Scrolls are the only way to do RPGs, period, is a rather limited way of viewing the market. The recent Kickstarters have shown that the old ways of doing an RPG are still totally valid in today's market. 

Anything can be successful with loads of random idiots throwing money at you. 

[bussinrounds]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


I'd say this isn't fair. I don't think any of the big name Kickstarters (PE, Planescape 2.0, Wasteland 2, ShadowRun) are anything like a "build your own party/D&D" experience. In terms of crowd-sourcing, a game like Grimoire might fit this bill, of a truly old-school, build your own party, D&D mechanics-type gameplay... but Grimoire is a true minority, in terms of both funding and interest. 

I think it may be more legitimate to say developers are going to have to look at more old school mechanics, such as more tactically-minded combat, diverse leveling opportunities, equipment/items/inventory that is more than just offering the highest DPS for twenty minutes before getting an upgrade, encounter design that doesn't lean on the crutch of level-scaling, use of non-combat skills/abilities, etc. 

The WoW-ification of RPGs major developers have chased in the past five years has been a shocking and disturbing trend for many gamers who feel this violates what PnP RPGs were all about and what older systems tried to capture. Having more diversity is a good thing. To assume Dragon Age, The Witcher or The Elder Scrolls are the only way to do RPGs, period, is a rather limited way of viewing the market. The recent Kickstarters have shown that the old ways of doing an RPG are still totally valid in today's market. 

 Good post.  But Wasteland 2 you can create your own party (as well as pick up others), I believe.  

 Chaos Chronicles also has full party creation, and will use the 3.5 d&d mechanics/rules.   

[Fast Jimmy]

bussinrounds wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


I'd say this isn't fair. I don't think any of the big name Kickstarters (PE, Planescape 2.0, Wasteland 2, ShadowRun) are anything like a "build your own party/D&D" experience. In terms of crowd-sourcing, a game like Grimoire might fit this bill, of a truly old-school, build your own party, D&D mechanics-type gameplay... but Grimoire is a true minority, in terms of both funding and interest. 

I think it may be more legitimate to say developers are going to have to look at more old school mechanics, such as more tactically-minded combat, diverse leveling opportunities, equipment/items/inventory that is more than just offering the highest DPS for twenty minutes before getting an upgrade, encounter design that doesn't lean on the crutch of level-scaling, use of non-combat skills/abilities, etc. 

The WoW-ification of RPGs major developers have chased in the past five years has been a shocking and disturbing trend for many gamers who feel this violates what PnP RPGs were all about and what older systems tried to capture. Having more diversity is a good thing. To assume Dragon Age, The Witcher or The Elder Scrolls are the only way to do RPGs, period, is a rather limited way of viewing the market. The recent Kickstarters have shown that the old ways of doing an RPG are still totally valid in today's market. 

 Good post.  But Wasteland 2 you can create your own party (as well as pick up others), I believe.  

 Chaos Chronicles also has full party creation, and will use the 3.5 d&d mechanics/rules.   

I consider games where you can create your own party, but that gives you plenty of "real" NPCs who can join your party to not be a game that is limited by it. After all, if you can create your dream party from scratch for a certain type of play and head-canon roleplaying, but you are also given fleshed out NPCs to pick up along the way if you choose to play the more "organic" route, then I say that is really the best of both worlds. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


I'd say this isn't fair. I don't think any of the big name Kickstarters (PE, Planescape 2.0, Wasteland 2, ShadowRun) are anything like a "build your own party/D&D" experience. In terms of crowd-sourcing, a game like Grimoire might fit this bill, of a truly old-school, build your own party, D&D mechanics-type gameplay... but Grimoire is a true minority, in terms of both funding and interest. 

I think it may be more legitimate to say developers are going to have to look at more old school mechanics, such as more tactically-minded combat, diverse leveling opportunities, equipment/items/inventory that is more than just offering the highest DPS for twenty minutes before getting an upgrade, encounter design that doesn't lean on the crutch of level-scaling, use of non-combat skills/abilities, etc. 

The WoW-ification of RPGs major developers have chased in the past five years has been a shocking and disturbing trend for many gamers who feel this violates what PnP RPGs were all about and what older systems tried to capture. Having more diversity is a good thing. To assume Dragon Age, The Witcher or The Elder Scrolls are the only way to do RPGs, period, is a rather limited way of viewing the market. The recent Kickstarters have shown that the old ways of doing an RPG are still totally valid in today's market. 

Anything can be successful with loads of random idiots throwing money at you. 

I'm not sure if that is a snipe at Kickstarters or AAA RPG development, honestly.

[Volus Warlord]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


I'd say this isn't fair. I don't think any of the big name Kickstarters (PE, Planescape 2.0, Wasteland 2, ShadowRun) are anything like a "build your own party/D&D" experience. In terms of crowd-sourcing, a game like Grimoire might fit this bill, of a truly old-school, build your own party, D&D mechanics-type gameplay... but Grimoire is a true minority, in terms of both funding and interest. 

I think it may be more legitimate to say developers are going to have to look at more old school mechanics, such as more tactically-minded combat, diverse leveling opportunities, equipment/items/inventory that is more than just offering the highest DPS for twenty minutes before getting an upgrade, encounter design that doesn't lean on the crutch of level-scaling, use of non-combat skills/abilities, etc. 

The WoW-ification of RPGs major developers have chased in the past five years has been a shocking and disturbing trend for many gamers who feel this violates what PnP RPGs were all about and what older systems tried to capture. Having more diversity is a good thing. To assume Dragon Age, The Witcher or The Elder Scrolls are the only way to do RPGs, period, is a rather limited way of viewing the market. The recent Kickstarters have shown that the old ways of doing an RPG are still totally valid in today's market. 

Anything can be successful with loads of random idiots throwing money at you. 

I'm not sure if that is a snipe at Kickstarters or AAA RPG development, honestly.

Why not both simultaneously?

[Fast Jimmy]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


I'd say this isn't fair. I don't think any of the big name Kickstarters (PE, Planescape 2.0, Wasteland 2, ShadowRun) are anything like a "build your own party/D&D" experience. In terms of crowd-sourcing, a game like Grimoire might fit this bill, of a truly old-school, build your own party, D&D mechanics-type gameplay... but Grimoire is a true minority, in terms of both funding and interest. 

I think it may be more legitimate to say developers are going to have to look at more old school mechanics, such as more tactically-minded combat, diverse leveling opportunities, equipment/items/inventory that is more than just offering the highest DPS for twenty minutes before getting an upgrade, encounter design that doesn't lean on the crutch of level-scaling, use of non-combat skills/abilities, etc. 

The WoW-ification of RPGs major developers have chased in the past five years has been a shocking and disturbing trend for many gamers who feel this violates what PnP RPGs were all about and what older systems tried to capture. Having more diversity is a good thing. To assume Dragon Age, The Witcher or The Elder Scrolls are the only way to do RPGs, period, is a rather limited way of viewing the market. The recent Kickstarters have shown that the old ways of doing an RPG are still totally valid in today's market. 

Anything can be successful with loads of random idiots throwing money at you. 

I'm not sure if that is a snipe at Kickstarters or AAA RPG development, honestly.

Why not both simultaneously?

Regardless, Kickstarter is a good thing that will hopefully continue to be a good thing for as long as it can be. Because as soon as the first time hits when it is a crappy thing, its going to make every other thing about it good become bad.

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...
Not that It's gonna be the end of publishers/AAA gaming or anything, but crpg fans won't have to settle for games like these that have some rpg elements, but are also trying to appeal to the action/mainstream audience. 

Instead they'll have to settle for games that try to appeal to the create-your-own-party and D&D crowd.

... which is what they want ...

... and I'm failing to see the problem here ...

... especially since the "mainstream audience" is about as artificial a construct as can possibly be with no measurable statistics outside of SIZE, and create-your-own-party and D&D fans are real, measurable, and have clearly stated desires that you can appeal to as long as you aren't concenred about having THE LARGEST AUDIENCE EVAH! ...

There's nothing wrong with liking to make a certain kind of game (as Obsidian and inXile do) and making those games for an audience, even if a niche one, that will fully appreciate said game.

There's EVERYTHING wrong with trying to make a product that appeals to EVERYONE, as it is impossible and the best you can hope for is to avoid offending most of the people who try your product.  To paraphrase, "you cannot entertain all the people all the time."

It is idiotic and poor business sense to even try.

[MerinTB]

bussinrounds wrote...
That's what the people who backed these KS projects want.  They're making games for a specific audience.  What's so hard to understand about that ?

This.  So much this.

As Brian Fargo says REPEATEDLY, when asked how he intends to appeal to a larger audience or how he plans on bringing in new players, his answer invariably is "I don't care.  I'm not making the game for them.  I'm making the game for our backers."

That is one of the only two ways that creative endeavors should be undertaken.  Either you are making your project for a specific audience, or you are making your project for yourself.  The latter, while noble, is likely far too big a risk for even small scale game development (that hopes to be at all self-sustaining, let alone profitable) -- while the former is the best way to ensure that your product has an audience that will thoroughly enjoy what you make  as long as you do a good job.

In Exile wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...
F*** yea.   That's what we want.

No, that's what you want.

And it's not what you want.  But, in bussinrounds's case, his "we" means the Kickstarter backers and therefore the FUNDERS and AUDIENCE of the game.

You, and anyone who doesn't want these games, are the ones who should be underlined as irrelevant.

In Exile wrote...
D&D
is a garbage system for any kind of meaningful P&P RP with horrible
conventions like XP/kill instead of XP/quest, and create-your-own party
RPGs are nothing more than empty shell murderbots. You don't get more
swallow and appeal-to-mass-market than D&D.

Well, as Pathfinder often outsells D&D, I think you CAN.  And as Diablo + WoW outsells Pathfinder and D&D combined, you CERTAINLY can.

As for "garbage system", the RP comes from players and the GM, not the system mechanics.  No set of rules will help or hurt the RP part of an RPG, the rules can only hurt the G part.

But whatever.  You dislike D&D.  Get in line. 

In Exile wrote...
A game like PS:T is nothing like Icewind Dale, neither of which is like BG, which straddles the gap between the two.

Uhm, they are all remarkably alike.  The story is different, but the rules systems are the same, the designers are largely the same, and they use the same engine.  The big difference between Icewind Dale and the other two is that Icewind Dale doesn't give you prescripted party members... but you can easily play BG1 & 2 with an entire party you make yourself.

In Exile wrote...
Not
to mention that neither of these games is like Ultima or Daggerfall. So
pretending like there's some single group of RPG fans is divorced from
reality.

The majority of western cRPGs are still "make your party" games, largely still resting on the laurels of the 80's and 90's, sure.  The shift in focus has certainly happened towards making only one character or even just being given your main character, but it's a recent development.

That said, you are turning this into a "you" vs. "what you don't want" thing.  What bussinrounds said is true, "we" as in the type of fans backing those Kickstarters, don't have to "settle" for BioWare's latest offering, or Bethesda's latest offering, or CDPR's latest offering.

Do other fans of other styles of RPGs not care about the KS games?  Sure.  Will DA:I or TW3 or TES VI outsell Project Eternity or Torment?  Of course.  That is true, and bussinrounds is still right...

and you are still arguing from your personal tastes and presenting it as the voice of reason. 

Modifié par MerinTB, 29 avril 2013 - 03:29 .

[MerinTB]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

Good post.  But Wasteland 2 you can create your own party (as well as pick up others), I believe.  
Chaos Chronicles also has full party creation, and will use the 3.5 d&d mechanics/rules.   

I consider games where you can create your own party, but that gives you plenty of "real" NPCs who can join your party to not be a game that is limited by it. After all, if you can create your dream party from scratch for a certain type of play and head-canon roleplaying, but you are also given fleshed out NPCs to pick up along the way if you choose to play the more "organic" route, then I say that is really the best of both worlds. 

Wasteland was the best of both worlds, as to a lesser extent were Bard's Tales and most of the SSI D&D games (you had at least some prescripted NPCs that would join you)... and Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity (with the Adventurer's Hall) will be as well.  You get both!

Modifié par MerinTB, 29 avril 2013 - 03:37 .

[Roflbox]

Persephone wrote...

I am less than impressed with their marketing for this new game. It's sexist (Robo girl in a submissive pose, bloodied and wearing a slip is the only female they have revealed..) and offensive. And I am bored to death of the Cyberpunk setting being milked EVERYWHERE!

No DRM. Great.

Maybe CDPR is the RPG Messiah. I haven't been converted yet. And I've known them before "The Witcher RULZ!" was a thing.

[Corto81]

Foshizzlin wrote...

CDPR is pretty great as a company. I stand by my word though that they screwed up a lot of stuff in TW2. But TW1 was great.

Witcher 2 is imperfect, yes, but done with passion and with depth of the world etc.

It's a fantastic game, and my top-4 modern RPG along with Skyrim, Dark Souls and DA:Origins.

But if you don't agree, the point of the thread is not the games they make but how they treat their customers.

Modifié par Corto81, 29 avril 2013 - 08:31 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

God that picture is so insulting.