I don't get it after all thats happened the circle and there blood mages taking over the tower i think having templars around is a good idea it only further proves that they need more templars. They may be extreme in there methods but i do think the mages need to be controlled anyone else agree?
whenever a templar is spoken about its usually negative how they are addicted to lyrium or how they are control freaks over the mages.
Why Are Templars Seen as Bad People?
Débuté par
infernoASH
, janv. 16 2010 04:57
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#2
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:04
KnightofPhoenix
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Because people see the Templars as the symbol of the supposed Chantry oppression. That's why.
I personally do not see the Templars that way. There is something tragic in them. Taken as a youth, forced to be addicted to a substance that only the Chantry can provide you and ultimately losing your mind. But I think they serve a necessary function, and while they might be harsh most of the time, few of them actualy hate mages. Greagoir expresses genuine concern and sadness over the deaths of the mages and Irving. A Templar praying outside the tower praises the Templars and Mages who have died protecting the circle...etc.
The mage regulation thing is far from being perfect. But it is, for the present moment, better than the alternative of having mages unleashed.
Plus, the Templars look badass.
In game, it depends on the PC. My Libratarian Mage hates them and sees them as the symbol of tyranny over the mages and an obstacle to reaching their full potential.
I personally do not see the Templars that way. There is something tragic in them. Taken as a youth, forced to be addicted to a substance that only the Chantry can provide you and ultimately losing your mind. But I think they serve a necessary function, and while they might be harsh most of the time, few of them actualy hate mages. Greagoir expresses genuine concern and sadness over the deaths of the mages and Irving. A Templar praying outside the tower praises the Templars and Mages who have died protecting the circle...etc.
The mage regulation thing is far from being perfect. But it is, for the present moment, better than the alternative of having mages unleashed.
Plus, the Templars look badass.
In game, it depends on the PC. My Libratarian Mage hates them and sees them as the symbol of tyranny over the mages and an obstacle to reaching their full potential.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:06 .
#3
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:07
SusanStoHelit
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This is a complex issue, but is usually because they belong to the Chantry, which is seen as negative by many people. Not in their good works, charity, and so on, but in other ways.
The Chantry uses the Templars to control mages. But it is that very control, the constant watching, that drives some mages to use forbidden magic in order to escape. Furthermore, it is the Chantry's teaching regarding magic and mages that cause mages to be seen negatively by many people. It's the Chantry and the Templars who, ultimately, caused (or were at least instrumental in causing) such things as the Broken Circle and the Conor/Isolde problem. Having the Chantry and the Templars not only did not prevent these things happening, it was part of what caused them.
Other cultures in Thedas handle mages in other ways. The Qun are even worse than the Chantry. However, the Dalish actually have mages in their society, without Chantry supervision, and they seem to get along fine. The Dalish, in fact, put their mages in positions of power. And they don't have abominations running around all over the place.
Thus, the argument (from my perspective) is that the Chantry and Templars cause more problems to do with mages than they fix. And that other people seem to get along fine without them.
Edit: This is without even touching on the matter of the Chantry forcibly converting other religious groups to the worship of the Maker and Andraste, by use of Exalted Marches to destroy them, their culture, and their own religions.
The Chantry uses the Templars to control mages. But it is that very control, the constant watching, that drives some mages to use forbidden magic in order to escape. Furthermore, it is the Chantry's teaching regarding magic and mages that cause mages to be seen negatively by many people. It's the Chantry and the Templars who, ultimately, caused (or were at least instrumental in causing) such things as the Broken Circle and the Conor/Isolde problem. Having the Chantry and the Templars not only did not prevent these things happening, it was part of what caused them.
Other cultures in Thedas handle mages in other ways. The Qun are even worse than the Chantry. However, the Dalish actually have mages in their society, without Chantry supervision, and they seem to get along fine. The Dalish, in fact, put their mages in positions of power. And they don't have abominations running around all over the place.
Thus, the argument (from my perspective) is that the Chantry and Templars cause more problems to do with mages than they fix. And that other people seem to get along fine without them.
Edit: This is without even touching on the matter of the Chantry forcibly converting other religious groups to the worship of the Maker and Andraste, by use of Exalted Marches to destroy them, their culture, and their own religions.
Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:12 .
#4
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:08
MatronAdena
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at it's core alot of it seems to stem from a few factors;
Many come across as unquestioning tools of the chantry
several come across as bigoted and narrow minded
While yes as even Wynn pointed out that one was very kind to her as a child, there are Templars who can be very abusive of their power and authority, and it comes across a few times that, when they DO cross that line, it's more likely to be swept under the rug, or the chantry will look the other way.
Not the only reasons, but some of the ones I can sort of see...With me I see the inquisition, oppression, just as much potential for corruption as any other, and...well really no different than the Templar of our own world...baby sitting mages are only a very very small portion of their duity, they are first and foremost the fist of the chantry...and it's that association that leave a bad taste in the mouth of a few.
Many come across as unquestioning tools of the chantry
several come across as bigoted and narrow minded
While yes as even Wynn pointed out that one was very kind to her as a child, there are Templars who can be very abusive of their power and authority, and it comes across a few times that, when they DO cross that line, it's more likely to be swept under the rug, or the chantry will look the other way.
Not the only reasons, but some of the ones I can sort of see...With me I see the inquisition, oppression, just as much potential for corruption as any other, and...well really no different than the Templar of our own world...baby sitting mages are only a very very small portion of their duity, they are first and foremost the fist of the chantry...and it's that association that leave a bad taste in the mouth of a few.
#5
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:11
_Aine_
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They fear the mages, so they control them. Templars use magic and are theoretically (at the very least) powerful enough to oppose strong magic. Who defends from renegade templars? lol IF they are hated ( are they really? ) its probably because of what they represent in a parallel to our world -- almost frightening singleminded attachment to a belief. Templars have zero problem killing a mage that they suspect has gone bad. Of course the templars themself even believe it to be the "right" and just thing to do, even care to a certain extent because they are living beings after all and have dedicated their entire lives to what they are doing. Still, they are figureheads for perceived oppression which never looks good from the side of the oppressed. Gotta love the uniforms though 
#6
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:12
MEUTRIERE
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Uhh, because "they are addicted to lyrium [and] are control freaks over the mages"?
I suppose it's a sort of Catch-22. Uldred and the blood mages acted out because of the Chantry's oppressive templars, but it is also expected that if there are no templars another situation like the Golden City invasion could arise. So really, your opinion of the templars really depends on if you believe in preserving freedom or the safety of the masses.
I suppose it's a sort of Catch-22. Uldred and the blood mages acted out because of the Chantry's oppressive templars, but it is also expected that if there are no templars another situation like the Golden City invasion could arise. So really, your opinion of the templars really depends on if you believe in preserving freedom or the safety of the masses.
#7
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:12
Lord Phoebus
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Reynard de Chatillon? The characters named after the RL Templars are coloured with the same brush?
Why do the mages need to be controlled? The Imperium might have released the Darkspawn, but the Elves are led by mages, their history is longer than the Imperiums, and they never spawned a blight. The Imperium hasn't caused any catastrophes since the darkspawn either and they're still ruled by mages. The collective does a good job of policing their own too.
Actually you should play the mage origin story and see if you still feel the same, Gregoir comes off as wanting to kill every mage in the circle, on principle, and most of the templars come off the same way too.
Why do the mages need to be controlled? The Imperium might have released the Darkspawn, but the Elves are led by mages, their history is longer than the Imperiums, and they never spawned a blight. The Imperium hasn't caused any catastrophes since the darkspawn either and they're still ruled by mages. The collective does a good job of policing their own too.
Actually you should play the mage origin story and see if you still feel the same, Gregoir comes off as wanting to kill every mage in the circle, on principle, and most of the templars come off the same way too.
Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:16 .
#8
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:14
Costin_Razvan
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I feel sad for the templars. Though I hate the Chantry.
#9
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:15
KnightofPhoenix
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We must remember why the Chantry does this. The Tevinter Imperium was a Magocracy. It was a tyrannical regime, where Mages ruled over everyone. Now I doubt the villification of the Tevinter Imperium by the Chantry is all true and I in fact see it as a great civilisation and Empire. But there is little doubt that it was the Mage swho ruled and they ruled in autocratic fashion. When Andraste rebelled, she rebelled against Mages who had used their power to control and exploit the others. And the Chantry claims it was those mages who caused the darkspawn to exist. Whether that is true or not remains to be seen, but it's in the Chantry discourse. Hence its belief "Magic exists to serve man and not to control him".
So while you may disagree with the Chantry and the way they deal with their mages (I somewhat disagree). We must first understand why and how such a system came into place. Would you prefer a Magocracy? Or the current situation?
So while you may disagree with the Chantry and the way they deal with their mages (I somewhat disagree). We must first understand why and how such a system came into place. Would you prefer a Magocracy? Or the current situation?
#10
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:17
SusanStoHelit
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Neither. See my comments re the Dalish. It's not 'this' or 'that'; there are other options.
Edit: In any case, I didn't think the thread was about who was right or wrong. Or whether the Chantry was right or wrong either. The OP asked why so many people disliked the Templars - and I gave them some reasons.
Edit: In any case, I didn't think the thread was about who was right or wrong. Or whether the Chantry was right or wrong either. The OP asked why so many people disliked the Templars - and I gave them some reasons.
Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:19 .
#11
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:18
menasure
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well the templars serve a purpose, whether they're good or bad depends largely on how you see that purpose.
some might not like the principle of locking a mage up (or killing them) because you're simply born as a mage while others see templars as the law enforcers which secure the society from danger... abominations are a real threat after all.
they're a bit like cops and personally i have to say though i do understand the need for cops in real life i don't really like them because they're more likely to bother normal people with fines to fund some governmental institute than to catch real criminals. that's the sort of biased feeling i get from templars too
but you also have to consider that some replies come from a role playing perspective and if you have a mage in your party, apostate or not then it's pretty normal to sympathize with their troubles even if you don't play the evil mage type yourself.
some might not like the principle of locking a mage up (or killing them) because you're simply born as a mage while others see templars as the law enforcers which secure the society from danger... abominations are a real threat after all.
they're a bit like cops and personally i have to say though i do understand the need for cops in real life i don't really like them because they're more likely to bother normal people with fines to fund some governmental institute than to catch real criminals. that's the sort of biased feeling i get from templars too
but you also have to consider that some replies come from a role playing perspective and if you have a mage in your party, apostate or not then it's pretty normal to sympathize with their troubles even if you don't play the evil mage type yourself.
#12
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:20
Costin_Razvan
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I believe the templars should still guard the Circle, but have no say or influence in the decisions made by the First Enchanter. Exactly like what happens if you give the Circle full autonomy, and I don't see the Circle in the epilogue text trying to take over the world!
#13
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:22
KnightofPhoenix
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SusanStoHelit wrote...
Neither. See my comments re the Dalish. It's not 'this' or 'that'; there are other options.
Yes I know. This is how the Chantry is presenting the issue. And from this perspective (or the perspective of the average Fereldan) the Templars are a necessity.
#14
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:24
infernoASH
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I agree with menasure i see them more as police. i think the templars should not be all over the mages but if there is a Blood mage problem or rogue mages gone missing (Who you gunna call) templars arrive and hunt them down i think that would make a better solution. But i do think the harrowing process should be monitored by the Templars atleast.
i have played as a mage character and i have noticed the knight commander is alittle to over the top
but there must be some good Templars out there
i have played as a mage character and i have noticed the knight commander is alittle to over the top
but there must be some good Templars out there
#15
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:25
SusanStoHelit
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No: that is what the Chantry teaches and preaches - it isn't necessarily true. And the average Fereldan believes it because the Chantry tells them it is so.
Edit: Sorry, directed to KnightofPhoenix above.
Edit: Sorry, directed to KnightofPhoenix above.
Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:26 .
#16
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:25
Sabriana
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SusanStoHelit wrote...
This is a complex issue, but is usually because they belong to the Chantry, which is seen as negative by many people. Not in their good works, charity, and so on, but in other ways.
The Chantry uses the Templars to control mages. But it is that very control, the constant watching, that drives some mages to use forbidden magic in order to escape. Furthermore, it is the Chantry's teaching regarding magic and mages that cause mages to be seen negatively by many people. It's the Chantry and the Templars who, ultimately, caused (or were at least instrumental in causing) such things as the Broken Circle and the Conor/Isolde problem. Having the Chantry and the Templars not only did not prevent these things happening, it was part of what caused them.
Other cultures in Thedas handle mages in other ways. The Qun are even worse than the Chantry. However, the Dalish actually have mages in their society, without Chantry supervision, and they seem to get along fine. The Dalish, in fact, put their mages in positions of power. And they don't have abominations running around all over the place.
Thus, the argument (from my perspective) is that the Chantry and Templars cause more problems to do with mages than they fix. And that other people seem to get along fine without them.
Edit: This is without even touching on the matter of the Chantry forcibly converting other religious groups to the worship of the Maker and Andraste, by use of Exalted Marches to destroy them, their culture, and their own religions.
This. Exactly. I couldn't agree more. It is seldom that I agree completely with every point of a post regarding ambiguous subject matter. I hate origanized religion, especially when that religion abuses its power, has a standing army that it (the religious institution) controls with mind controlling substances tha addle the mind in the end.
So, it's not the templars I hate per se, it's what the Chantry does with them.
#17
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:28
KnightofPhoenix
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SusanStoHelit wrote...
No: that is what the Chantry teaches and preaches - it isn't necessarily true. And the average Fereldan believes it because the Chantry tells them it is so.
Edit: Sorry, directed to KnightofPhoenix above.
Eum...that's exactly what I said....I was agreeing with you.
#18
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:29
SusanStoHelit
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I will admit, though, that my perspectives may be coloured (for good or ill) by the fact that I am by education and training a scholar in comparative religion. :-)
#19
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:30
SusanStoHelit
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Eum...that's exactly what I said....I was agreeing with you.
Then I apologise, I must've misinterpreted it when I read.
#20
Guest_LostScout_*
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:44
Guest_LostScout_*
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Templar's are chosen more for their willingness to follow orders without question. This kind of makes them mindless killing machines in massive armor who are relatively immune to mages. Add to this the fact that they are addicted to lyrium (and Alistair's templar abilities show it is not necessary, just a means of control), and the ones they get their orders from are senior templars who have been taking lyrium longer. So, mindless drug addled killers who get their orders from even more unbalanced individuals is a little bit scary. Add to this that they are not necessary to kill abominations. Gray wardens do it just fine, and anyone who has fought a battle using "friendly" mages realizes that one of the most effective killers of mages is another mage. Mages really could police themselves if they were allowed to.
#21
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:49
Sabriana
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Wynne's quest spoilers follow
Add Wynne's quest to that, and it shows that templars are mindless killing machines controlled by heavy drugs.
Arenein wanted to escape the tower because as an elf he felt abused, oppressed, and missunderstood. The templars hunted the 14 year old down and left him for dead.
The dalish found him and restored him to health. They seem to have no problems with mages, and seeing Wynne's behavior toward Arenein whe she finds him, he is not a blood-mage at all.
Hunting down a 14 year old kid, cut him down in cold blood, and leave him for dead. Way to go.
Add Wynne's quest to that, and it shows that templars are mindless killing machines controlled by heavy drugs.
Arenein wanted to escape the tower because as an elf he felt abused, oppressed, and missunderstood. The templars hunted the 14 year old down and left him for dead.
The dalish found him and restored him to health. They seem to have no problems with mages, and seeing Wynne's behavior toward Arenein whe she finds him, he is not a blood-mage at all.
Hunting down a 14 year old kid, cut him down in cold blood, and leave him for dead. Way to go.
#22
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:52
Feresta
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It does not actually LostScout, it only shows you do not need it for that. We do not know how effective his abilities would be with lyrium.That does not change the fact of course that lyrium is means to an end, control the templars.
And to be person who said renegade templars...their so called magic only works against mages so they are no special threat to general population.
And to be person who said renegade templars...their so called magic only works against mages so they are no special threat to general population.
#23
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:52
KnightofPhoenix
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It's not really that simple. There are many risks involved, which could degenerate into an even worse system (Qunari like). Though I would prefer if change does happen.
Also, I don't think the Templar of Ferelden are comparable to the real life Templars and the Inquisition. The mages have proved themselves to be potentially great threats (most of the mage fraternities agree on this). The Inquisition on the otherhand was designed to forcefully convert, deport or even kill any non Catholic, most of whom were harmless. So I wouldn't equate the two.
Also, I don't think the Templar of Ferelden are comparable to the real life Templars and the Inquisition. The mages have proved themselves to be potentially great threats (most of the mage fraternities agree on this). The Inquisition on the otherhand was designed to forcefully convert, deport or even kill any non Catholic, most of whom were harmless. So I wouldn't equate the two.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:54 .
#24
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:54
SusanStoHelit
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Feresta wrote...
And to be person who said renegade templars...their so called magic only works against mages so they are no special threat to general population.
True: but their whacking great swords and axes if they go off their rockers are a threat to the general population.
#25
Posté 16 janvier 2010 - 05:57
SusanStoHelit
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
True - but not all. And even if it were all of them, all the mage fraternities are inside the Circle, and all members of the Circle have been trained since childhood by the Chantry. So, whether they love or hate the Chantry, they have been influenced by it.
most of the mage fraternities agree on this
True - but not all. And even if it were all of them, all the mage fraternities are inside the Circle, and all members of the Circle have been trained since childhood by the Chantry. So, whether they love or hate the Chantry, they have been influenced by it.
