398 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

So what is being said is that it is better that the mages police the mages? But the Mage collective does not enforce its own rules. In DA it is the PC and companions (hired by the collective) that become the armed force to stop wayward mages. The collective does not send out the Mage Squad to reel in the bad apples. The mage collective could not because it would cause magical dogfights with the potential to level cities. The templars have abilities that limit the damage a mage can do by counteracting their abilities.

Let's look at a real world example how many of you would trust the FBI or CIA to solely police themselves? Let's get closer to home do you think that your local police should have sole jurisdiction on policing itself? I will remind people of what is called the blue wall of slience.

Basically there is no check and balance in that system. Good or bad the Templars provide a check on the mages.

If you say they failed at the tower, so does every police force at sometime. Then it becomes important to minimize and contain the threat.

But in any civilized society there must be order. Who establishes the order? Who protects the majority (non-mages) from the powerful minority (mages)? Who prevents blood mages from controlling people? If you say other mages, isn't that like the fox guarding the hen house?

[mrofni]

AntiChri5 wrote...

How do you justify that Roleplay-wise? A Templar who destroyed the Urn? A dragon cultist Templar?

Sounds like one poor confused bastard.

City Elf Female Warrior. Believed the chantry in that the mage's greed caused the Golden City to be corrupted and turn black. At the same time, being an elf, could see the evil that has come from those in power, and believed that they were heading the same way. Then on the Sacred Ashes quest and found the little village of Haven. There they were, just trying to live a peaceful and happy life, but was always in fear that they would be attacked for their beliefs. This is very similar to the elf history, which they were conquered by the humans not once, but twice for their beliefs. My character believed in the Maker, in Andraste and her deeds, but also believed that the people in power now are evil. I mean, look at what they have done and are doing to the elves? So, she could easily understand the Reavers, and she was converted by their conviction.

Modifié par mrofni, 18 janvier 2010 - 11:53 .

[wwwwowwww]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wwwwowwww
Organized religions, wether in a fantasy setting or in real life seem
to have one constant. Controlling people via fear of the unknown.

Pfft. You fear organized religion because of the power it has, because of it's influence. But that influence is the product of the numbers of it's followers. The by-produict of it's size and importance in everyday life.

If insted of the church you had the "international atheist society" with just as much power, would you speak so loudly againt it? No, you wouldn't.

First off don't pretend to know me. I do no fear organized religion at all, I dislike organized religion because it has become a business and not what it was intended to be. It's influence is based off of peoples fear of the unknown, it uses this to get people to believe their views and practices as well as bring in income for themselves.

Because I do not believed in organized religion does not make me an atheist, I have my own views and beliefs that don't require me to sit around once a week pretending that I was good all week or that if I go people will forget what I did.

Please get your facts straight before coming at me. If you can't see that religion has gained it's power through the fear of the unknown then perhaps you should do some research and see for yourself.

[Urazz]

I see the Templars as more of the puppets of the Chantry really with the Chantry being more corrupt like the Catholic Church was like in the Medieval times. It always seems to be the leadership in the Chantry is fermenting that fear of mages to fanatical levels and let those more evil oppressive templars get away with the stuff they do.

I think the Templars would be much better off if they seperated from the Chantry and governed themselves.  There would probably be alot less of the oppressive templars I think.  Cause at the moment there really is noone to police the templars themselves I think other than the Chantry and from what I've seen of the Chantry higher ups, they seem to not care for the most part and think the mages are lower than dirt or encourage it.

Modifié par Urazz, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:49 .

[draxynnus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


[*]They dont oppress people, they only "oppress" mages. And im reluctant to see it as real oppression since first of all a quiet big chunk of the mages are being "oppressed" willingly, because they recognize the danger they pose. It's a fact that all mages are potential weapons, it is also known that all mages have the potential of being possessed, these two factors is the reason of the Chantry's control of the mages. If there were no control, we would be facing a Broken Circle incident with no Templars to contain it.

If they're willing, couldn't they be allowed to just get on with it themselves with the Templars available to step in when necessary, rather than the Templars being able to poke their nose in and demand what amounts to execution without trial at will?

Realmzmaster wrote...
So what is being said is that it is better that the mages police the mages? But the Mage collective does not enforce its own rules. In DA it is the PC and companions (hired by the collective) that become the armed force to stop wayward mages. The collective does not send out the Mage Squad to reel in the bad apples. The mage collective could not because it would cause magical dogfights with the potential to level cities. The templars have abilities that limit the damage a mage can do by counteracting their abilities.

Let's look at a real world example how many of you would trust the FBI or CIA to solely police themselves? Let's get closer to home do you think that your local police should have sole jurisdiction on policing itself? I will remind people of what is called the blue wall of slience.

Basically there is no check and balance in that system. Good or bad the Templars provide a check on the mages.

If you say they failed at the tower, so does every police force at sometime. Then it becomes important to minimize and contain the threat.

But in any civilized society there must be order. Who establishes the order? Who protects the majority (non-mages) from the powerful minority (mages)? Who prevents blood mages from controlling people? If you say other mages, isn't that like the fox guarding the hen house?

Which is why I don't propose removing the templars entirely - just reducing their power.

At the moment, however, the templars are in the position of the FBI, CIA, or police that have almost sole jurisdiction on themselves. As long as they don't go outside whatever limits the Chantry have imposed, they serve as judge, jury, and executioner among the magical community.

My proposal would be to remove that degree of power. Inside the magical community, the Templars and the mages who choose to join the magehunting squads are stripped down to being police (and possibly executioners) - however, the positions of judge and jury are split off into the magical community (the First Enchanter, possibly supported by the Senior Enchanters, being the judge(s) - juries are probably too advanced a concept for the world). The current system has exactly the problem you describe - there is one group that has effectively no oversight in policing another, and the result is that certain members of the second group is willing to take drastic measures in order to escape that oversight. My proposal would be to split that power so that it is shared between groups - the Templars directly assigned to the Circle serve as a police force within the Circle (but not also as the judges), while Templars assigned elsewhere mean that the rest of society has a defence in case the magical community as a whole does go bad.

And as has been pointed out, with the mechanics as they currently are the potential for magical dogfights with mixed mage/templar magehunter squads is less than if those squads are composed of templars alone. Any mage that joins one of these squads is, after all, going to spec largely into antimagic lines sich as Antimagic and Mana Manipulation rather city-destroying spells, and since Mages do appear to be better at shutting down other Mages than Templars, allowing mages to join the "police force" actually decreases the chance of the city-destroying magical dogfights that you're afraid of, as the criminal is more likely to be shut down before exercising that city-levelling potential.

In short: The current system gives essentially absolute power over the magical community to the templars (except when the former rebels, and, unsurprisingly, this seems to happen often). The counter-proposal giving the mages more control over their internal affairs is not one of simply handing over the same power to the magical community, but an establishment of a seperation of powers between the police (the Templars, with mage support) and the judges (the Circle leadership, and in the case of the Circle going bad and declaring war on the rest of society, the Templars are still there to fight on behalf of the leaders of the rest of society).

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
The arguement that the Templars exist to prevent what happened to the Circle falls flat, since they were unable to prevent it, and as somebody mentioned previously, it's happened 14 other times in history.  (Citation needed, both for number of times, and why.)  However, they were an abysmal failure at it in the one event that we have readily available.  Since saying that the Tevintar Imperium is the motivation for the control, despite it being centuries ago, then the fact that it fails miserably means that it's not effective, other than for a method to put all the eggs in one basket so an army of Templars can wipe them out at will.  The fact that we have Dalish mages with no reports of Dalish Abominations means that the Chantry really isn't needed to prevent them.  Especially considering that the Chantry can't prevent them.

Incorrect.
They weren't an abysmal faliure. IT's not the job of the circle to prevent abominations altogehter. Taht is impossible, since it depends on the person.
The job is to reduce their number, control and direct responsible use of magic. In this, tehy suceed.

And again, the Daelish elves are not proof of anything. They live mosty in forests - if one of their kind goes all abomination, who's gonan know to tell you?

Regarding the derail of Religious Bigotry going on, I do know religious people that fit that stereotype, and non religious people that do too.  However, religion is created by man as a means to control people.  Faith is of the God of one's understanding.  Religion cannot exist without Faith, but Faith most certainly can exist without Religion.  Note here that all Religions are organized, by definition.  There are good and bad people in everything, regardless of what religion they may profess to belong to.  It is still true, however, that more blood has been spilled in the name of one God or another than for any other reason.

Article

Incorrect. Religion was created to control people - that is your belief, not a fact.
Also, no on the last part. It's incorrect too.
Stalin and Mao Zedon alone had probably killed more people than all the wars in the ancient times combined.

Also, the Tempars are an organization, but they are accountable to the Chantry. The Chantry is their oversight.
Some might think that's not good enough, but what is?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Tirigon wrote...

Caladhiel wrote...

Why? Because throwing everyone into one pot is always stupid. 

Sadly, no.
In my experience most humans lack personality and individuality, so you can as well throw them in one pot.

Well then. I throw you in the pot with people who are too stupid to live abd should be forbidden from ever reproducing.
thank you for you blessing in doing so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Tirigon wrote...
Religion = A way to control and oppress people and to excuse crimes, therefore bad

You could say that about any philosophical direction or practicly and group in the wrold.

I could use your OWN Sentance and proclaim myself your devout follower, and then proceed to mass murder clergy and raise down churches.

Therefore I conclude that you opress people and are therefore bad, and you are the reason for all those deaths.

[wwwwowwww]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Incorrect. Religion was created to control people - that is your belief, not a fact.
Also, no on the last part. It's incorrect too.
Stalin and Mao Zedon alone had probably killed more people than all the wars in the ancient times combined.

Also, the Tempars are an organization, but they are accountable to the Chantry. The Chantry is their oversight.
Some might think that's not good enough, but what is?

Religious wars are still killing thousands to this day, it's fairly safe to say that with centuries of religious wars that more blood has been spilled in the name of religion than any other war.

Now if your going to make an argument against this, it's best not to say "it's incorrect" then follow it up with the word "probably". Either stand behind your statement or don't but "probably" really doesnt' cut it when trying to convince.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Religion = A way to control and oppress people and to excuse crimes, therefore bad

You could say that about any philosophical direction or practicly and group in the wrold.

I could use your OWN Sentance and proclaim myself your devout follower, and then proceed to mass murder clergy and raise down churches.

Therefore I conclude that you opress people and are therefore bad, and you are the reason for all those deaths.

While I think Tirigon's view is a bit extreme, I belive you just missed her point totally. It's not faith in God, a multitude of gods, or the absense of God she regards as wrong, but organized religion. The organisation that administers the memebers of a faith. Belief in God is an act of faith and faith is a private decision everyone has to make for themsleves. Religion is a way to administer (or "control" if you think it's bad) people of a faith. An important part of many religions is to accord certain individuals status as those who know God's will best, and that can open up for abuse.

So just because someone doen't belive in churches or organized religion, doesn't follow that they don't belive in God, and it's not faith that is the problem, but when someone alone or in an organization use faith for actions, just as you yourself so well pointed out.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ideoligical wars are still killing thousands to this day. Hate wars are still killing thousands to this day.

Religion is not the cause here.

Also, atheism on a larger scale is farely recent development in human history and yet when it comes to "it's" body count, it seems to be catching up to "religion" rather fast (if it didn't overshoot it already)



And b.t.w. - don't pretend to know me or religious people in general. You claim religion controls people trough fear. I do not follow the Church out of fear. And neither do most people I know.



Either way, Xandurpein said probably the smartest thing in this entire thread.

Let's focus on Thedas, and leave the real world out of it.

[Althernai]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Religion was created to control people - that is your belief, not a fact.

I don't want to discuss real-world religions (it's against the rules of these forums, BTW), but you would have to be blind to miss that the policies of the Chantry where the Templars are concerned are all about control. We've discussed what the Chantry does to mages at length here so I'm not going to repeat it, but look at the flip side of that coin: they maintain their own private army and not only that, but keep this army addicted to an insanity-causing drug. This is pretty hardcore; I don't think any real-world religion ever went that far (it's the province of cults).

This isn't to say that the individual clergy of the Chantry are bad (Leliana is OK as are the various Sisters and Revered Mothers you meet on your travels), but the overall system is rather monstrous. It would be pretty awesome if at some point there was a Fereldan Reformation which ended the domination of the Orlesians and put a stop to some of the more atrocious practices.

[Sabriana]

Zevran and Alistair on religion:



Zevran: So are you a very religious man, Alistair? I am curious. I believe I heard you say you were raised in an abbey?



Alistair: I was raised in a castle. I was schooled in the abbey. As far as being religious... I don't know. Not especially. What about you? Not in your line of work, I expect.



Zevran: Why do you say that? I happen to be quite devoted, in my way, as most Antivans are.



Alistair: Truly? But you kill people. For money.



Zevran: And I ask forgiveness for my sins from the Maker every chance I get. What manner of monster do you think I am?



Alistair: But... you ask forgiveness and then you go right on with your sinning?



Zevran: The Maker has never objected. Why should you?



Alistair: I... have no idea.



Zevran: Well there you go. Perhaps you ought to think about asking for a little forgiveness yourself, hm?

[Xandurpein]

Althernai wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Religion was created to control people - that is your belief, not a fact.

I don't want to discuss real-world religions (it's against the rules of these forums, BTW), but you would have to be blind to miss that the policies of the Chantry where the Templars are concerned are all about control. We've discussed what the Chantry does to mages at length here so I'm not going to repeat it, but look at the flip side of that coin: they maintain their own private army and not only that, but keep this army addicted to an insanity-causing drug. This is pretty hardcore; I don't think any real-world religion ever went that far (it's the province of cults).

I do agree with a lot of what you write, but to be fair private armies where the only armies around in the feudal world. There is no such thing as a Fereldan army. Noble houses had their own private armies. The Grey Wardens are a private army too, and with some suspicious methods involved too by the way.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:49 .

[wwwwowwww]

Anyone who cannot see that the Chantry uses fear to control and seize power is not paying attention.

In basic terms they are the puppet masters and the Templars are there puppets.



I haven't read any of the books I can only go by the game, but you never get the real story behind it all. All you get, even from the very beginning, is "The Chantry teaches us"

[KnightofPhoenix]

I have read some people pointing out the Dalish as an example of how magic should be run. Well let's not forget what Zathrian did. Opened up the veil, summoned a fade spirit and bound it to the body of a wolf, created a curse and through it became immortal (pseudo blood magic as the Lady tells us). So I am not sure the Dalish are a good example, since the only mage we really know from the game is Zathrian.

@ Draxynnus. Good ideas. Allowing Mages specialised in mana manipulation to become Templars will help a great deal in leading an inclusionary policy vis a vis mages. The jury should be held by Chantry and Circle officials.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dunno if this has already been said, this thread is growing fast after all, but there is one thing to consider: before the Chantry the mages had the power to rule all. They enslaved and could do virtually anything they wanted. While Blood Magic has been argued that it isn't inherently evil it does grant power for mass sacrifices, which for a mage in control of a nation is a pretty tempting choice.



Even if most mages in a circle don't want to take power you can see where it can naturally leading to them taking it without them intending to do so: a unsupervised Circle does not like how a country is being run, maybe the king is a despot and the mages want to help the local citizenry or maybe they just don't like him getting in the way, and so they intervene, and wind up taking over the country in doing so (only to keep order of course).



Now, there's a huge problem in the country and one of the mages has blood magic, he can fix the problem but it requires alot of blood, but hey there's criminals in the prison, they are going to be executed anyway right? New apprentices are brought into the tower, and the combination of having magic power while being acknowledged as part of the now ruling class is going to do wonders for their self-esteem...



Mages are more or less born with their own array of weaponry built in, weaponry that no other person in Thedas can match. Of course the Chantry is worried: these people, if not watched, will naturally gravitate above normal people whether they themselves want to or not, and all you need is one or two psychopaths in the bag to make a mess. Is the control the Chantry exerts necessary? Maybe, maybe not, but who is willing to make that choice and upon what do you base it upon?



I do think that one of the reasons people underestimate the influence a mage could have on society is because of the typical D&D setting: mages are not monitored yet for some reason most D&D kingdoms are not being run by them, despite their blatant power and superiority. DA:O actually takes into account that if someone with the ability to weave magic came along he would most likely take over, and included a reason why they don't, but since we are all used to mages being free and it not being a problem it seems even more excessive than it normally would.

[BloodRaith]

Because they stare at my mage when he tries to use the restroom at the tower...

[FlintlockJazz]

BloodRaith wrote...

Because they stare at my mage when he tries to use the restroom at the tower...

They watch you while you bathe, it says so in the Mage Origin.

On a side note, anyone notice that there doesn't seem to be any female templars?

[Xandurpein]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Dunno if this has already been said, this thread is growing fast after all, but there is one thing to consider: before the Chantry the mages had the power to rule all. They enslaved and could do virtually anything they wanted. While Blood Magic has been argued that it isn't inherently evil it does grant power for mass sacrifices, which for a mage in control of a nation is a pretty tempting choice.

Even if most mages in a circle don't want to take power you can see where it can naturally leading to them taking it without them intending to do so: a unsupervised Circle does not like how a country is being run, maybe the king is a despot and the mages want to help the local citizenry or maybe they just don't like him getting in the way, and so they intervene, and wind up taking over the country in doing so (only to keep order of course).

Now, there's a huge problem in the country and one of the mages has blood magic, he can fix the problem but it requires alot of blood, but hey there's criminals in the prison, they are going to be executed anyway right? New apprentices are brought into the tower, and the combination of having magic power while being acknowledged as part of the now ruling class is going to do wonders for their self-esteem...

Mages are more or less born with their own array of weaponry built in, weaponry that no other person in Thedas can match. Of course the Chantry is worried: these people, if not watched, will naturally gravitate above normal people whether they themselves want to or not, and all you need is one or two psychopaths in the bag to make a mess. Is the control the Chantry exerts necessary? Maybe, maybe not, but who is willing to make that choice and upon what do you base it upon?

I do think that one of the reasons people underestimate the influence a mage could have on society is because of the typical D&D setting: mages are not monitored yet for some reason most D&D kingdoms are not being run by them, despite their blatant power and superiority. DA:O actually takes into account that if someone with the ability to weave magic came along he would most likely take over, and included a reason why they don't, but since we are all used to mages being free and it not being a problem it seems even more excessive than it normally would.

I think that you accuratly describe why the authorities in Fereldan wants to keep mages under control. And given the nature of Fereldan society it's not strange that the solution they have chosen, but there still remains issues about if it would be possible to protect the society in a way that feels less claustrophobic to the mages. Just as it may be bad to have "people born with a flame thrower in their head" run free as kids may be a bad thing, locking them up in prison where they can grow up frightened and resentful may not be the optimum solution either.

You can even have an end in the game where a new circle is rebuilt in Orzammar, free of chantry supervision, and it doesn't seem to end in disaster withinn the forseeable future at least. Even if it is a good thing to have people trained to dampen magic, like Templars tied to the Circle, why the obsession with keeping them separated? Why wouldn't a Templar bonding to mage be a nice idea?

If you control people through fear, then they'll grow up frightened and resentful, and frightened resentful people make bad decisions.

[Curlain]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

BloodRaith wrote...

Because they stare at my mage when he tries to use the restroom at the tower...

They watch you while you bathe, it says so in the Mage Origin.

On a side note, anyone notice that there doesn't seem to be any female templars?

Well most of the templars are fully armoured with full helms on, so it's possible some of those are female templars, never really looked closely enough to determine if any of those were men or women (wonder how you would go about that anyhow, check under their robes or something :-))

[Tirigon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Well then. I throw you in the pot with people who are too stupid to live abd should be forbidden from ever reproducing.
thank you for you blessing in doing so.

Well, this proves that you belong in this category.

So, thanks but no thanks, back at ya.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Religion = A way to control and oppress people and to excuse crimes, therefore bad

You could say that about any philosophical direction or practicly and group in the wrold.

I
could use your OWN Sentance and proclaim myself your devout follower,
and then proceed to mass murder clergy and raise down churches.

Therefore I conclude that you opress people and are therefore bad, and you are the reason for all those deaths.

No you can´t, because everyone proclaiming to be my devout follower will be excommunicated and declared a heretic for not using it´s own brain but stealing the ideas of other people, what  shall be one of the deadly sins.

Besides, I don´t encourage the destroying of churches or the slaughter of "infidels", because even the misguided have a right to live as long as they don´t take this right away from others.

You could kill fundamentalist terrorists in my name, however. I´d like that, so go ahead.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I have read some people pointing out the Dalish as an example of how magic should be run. Well let's not forget what Zathrian did. Opened up the veil, summoned a fade spirit and bound it to the body of a wolf, created a curse and through it became immortal (pseudo blood magic as the Lady tells us). So I am not sure the Dalish are a good example, since the only mage we really know from the game is Zathrian.

However, Zathrian is a very powerful mage. And he does not fail or become an abomination.

His action is morally wrong, but it´s not a sign that mages need to be controlled. It´s a sign that assclowns need to be stopped, not mages in general.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Althernai wrote...
I don't want to discuss real-world religions (it's against the rules of these forums, BTW), but you would have to be blind to miss that the policies of the Chantry where the Templars are concerned are all about control.

But of course. TI's only normal.

THINK for a second.
Look at what's happening in the real world.

In order to carry a gun you have to have a specia llicensem, or you're thrown in jail.
Police are allowed to carry guns, but they usually don't carry it while off duty - not wihtout special permission.
And police offiers are usually either in hte police station, or on patrols.

Le'ts step that up - the miltiary.

Soldiers carry machingeun, which are more deadly than police pistols.
Soldiers live in bases, which are separate from a city/town. It's almsot as if they're being contained in a special structure that kees them away fro mteh civies, no? And, when they go on vacations or leaves, they leave their guns at the base.
Any heavyer weaponry is under severe scrutiny. You cannot even get a rocket launcheer wihtou signign for it, and you sure as hell won't be getting one at all unless it's realyl needed.

Still up?
Tanks. Hels inside bases, away fro mcities, under strict control with several security checks.

Nukes? Good look getting any civilian even NEAR one of those. Kept FAR away from the population.

Well, mages are like living tanks that can become living nukes.
You might say "but mages are breating, thinking humans". Yes, they are - but that doesn't change the reality that the level of controls and checks upon has to be substantial.

How would you like it if pople could own fully armed tanks?

We've discussed what the Chantry does to mages at length here so I'm not going to repeat it, but look at the flip side of that coin: they maintain their own private army and not only that, but keep this army addicted to an insanity-causing drug. This is pretty hardcore; I don't think any real-world religion ever went that far (it's the province of cults).

Probably not. That said, the templars you run across seem pretty sane. Either the Lyrium isn't that dangerous, or they aren't using enough of it (altough that one in Denerim probably snorted a bit TOO much).
Note that I do not like excessive use of lyrium myself, but it's not like it's forced upon the templars.

This isn't to say that the individual clergy of the Chantry are bad (Leliana is OK as are the various Sisters and Revered Mothers you meet on your travels), but the overall system is rather monstrous. It would be pretty awesome if at some point there was a Fereldan Reformation which ended the domination of the Orlesians and put a stop to some of the more atrocious practices.

I dont' see the system as monstrous. What's so monstrous about it?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:41 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Anyone who cannot see that the Chantry uses fear to control and seize power is not paying attention.
In basic terms they are the puppet masters and the Templars are there puppets.

Aren't you now trying to use fear of templars to control people and have some power?


Fear will always be present in the world - but attributing everything to it and some nefarious desire to control is really laughable. Yes, you CAN use fear to control people, but that doesn't mean you're actually doing it.

Isn't the PC using the fear of Darkspawn to gain power?