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Why Are Templars Seen as Bad People?


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#376
Althernai

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What makes you think there were many blood mages in the tower?


I just played through this part yesterday: you kill a bunch of them on your way up and they're even nicely labeled "Blood Mage" for your convenience. You can talk to one and possibly spare her.  She tells you that the reason they did this is to give them the power to fight for their freedom and even draws an analogy to Andraste (Wynne chews her out for it). In any case, I'd estimate that upwards of 20% of the Circle were blood mages.

Also, I picked the less respectful dialog options this time (Dwarven Nobles don't think much of humans...) and it becomes obvious just how miserably the Templars failed at doing anything about the situation. They had no chance at all in the intial martial contest, ran away like frightened little children (worse than that, actually -- the little mage children at least stand their ground and help you fight) and stood behind a locked door waiting for help from Denerim that would never come (Denerim has its own problems...). The ones that couldn't get away got possessed. By the way, there is nothing, nothing hostile at all between their locked door and the room where Wynne and the children are holding the abominations at bay.

#377
Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien

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Templar : "Mages do not choose to fear us, it is a function of their hardware" [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

#378
Tirigon

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

@Lotion: You have a point. But it depends on your Point of View. I think that the right to carry weapons is essential to ensure freedom and therefore guns should be legalized for everyone, so your comparison only proves me right that the mages should be free.


Except that you carrying a handgun won't help you agaisnt a select few who are the ONLY ones to drive tanks.


If  A FEW may drive tanks, legalize them for everyone. Problem solved.

Lol I´d like to drive a tank. Must be funny.

#379
mousestalker

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Tirigon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

@Lotion: You have a point. But it depends on your Point of View. I think that the right to carry weapons is essential to ensure freedom and therefore guns should be legalized for everyone, so your comparison only proves me right that the mages should be free.


Except that you carrying a handgun won't help you agaisnt a select few who are the ONLY ones to drive tanks.




If  A FEW may drive tanks, legalize them for everyone. Problem solved.

Lol I´d like to drive a tank. Must be funny.


ask and ye shall receive.
:D

Modifié par mousestalker, 20 janvier 2010 - 06:37 .


#380
Tirigon

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages aren't guns, they are TANKS.
There is no tank licensing. There is a specific amount of firepower people are allowed to legally posses. Anything above that simply cannot be tolerated by any sane state.



Armies possess tanks, so it´s ok.

#381
mousestalker

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Actually it's perfectly legal, but very expensive, to own a tank in the US. I know a guy who owns a Sherman tank. The trick is finding some place to drive it. Heavy tracked vehicles are rarely street legal. Also the parts are pricey.

#382
Tirigon

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mousestalker wrote...

Actually it's perfectly legal, but very expensive, to own a tank in the US. I know a guy who owns a Sherman tank. The trick is finding some place to drive it. Heavy tracked vehicles are rarely street legal. Also the parts are pricey.



True enough, but I doubt you are allowed to actually have it in a state able to fire...

Anyways, this is one of the few things Germany should copy from the USA. Unfortunately, though, Germany copies EVERYTHING EXCEPT FOR THE GUN LAWS.
My country sucks:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

#383
Realmzmaster

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Owning a tank in the USA is perfectly legal, as long as it is incapable of being fired. The main gun and machine guns must have all firing mechanisms removed. But state laws can prohibit the ownership of said vechicle especially in an urban environment.

Just like tigers, lions and other dangerous animals are not allowed except in designated environments.

#384
DreGregoire

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haha this puts me in mind of a line from the game, now I won't be able to quote it word for word but here goes. Or will I?



"I cant stand the self-righteous!"

#385
stribies

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Why buy a tank when you can persuade a goat to shoot laser beams?

#386
draxynnus

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mages of the Circle ARE licensed. I doubt that there are any weapons
licensing laws in the world that are as harsh as the Harrowing, nor any
means of tracking license-holders as potent as the phylactories held by
the Circle. Excessive interference in the Circle's affairs and
observation of bathing Mages isn't necessary (and the latter doesn't
seem to be effective, since Jowan and others certainly seem to have
managed to learn blood magic despite this supervision.


Mages aren't guns, they are TANKS.
There is no tank licensing. There is a specific amount of firepower people are allowed to legally posses. Anything above that simply cannot be tolerated by any sane state.

This statement has two flaws:

1) Mages are also people. Tanks don't mind being locked up. They won't get restless and possibly rebel over being treated in an inhumane manner. People will.

2) You exaggerate their power. Mages are much closer to someone with a bunch of explosives - maybe a grenade launcher - than a tank. Explosives are legal to use in the right environments, with the proper permits - and you certainly don't get locked up just for knowing how to make them. While they're on the border of what is and isn't legal for a common citizen, we come back to the point that explosives won't get resentful about being locked up (although some might explode if stored incorrectly).

The first is really the important thing, however. In the real world, people aren't harmed by not being allowed to carry around grenade launchers and flamethrowers (which are, incidentally, legal in the US with the proper permits). You can't simply ask a mage to leave their magic in the lockbox, however. The control methods that basically mean no Mage can live anything like a normal life, however, are pretty much already there - you can track a mage with their phylactory and you have people that can take them down if necessary. Excessive control, however - we see what that caused in Broken Circle, and if it wasn't for Wynne's barrier it's entirely possible that the abominations and demons would have overwhelmed the remaining Templars and spilled out into the countryside. And as people have said, the current system not only failed to prevent this from happening, it caused it - the system led to a significant portion of Mages deciding that it was so unbearable they were willing to take extreme measures to overthrow it.

That's the thing you're overlooking with your analogies. High-end military hardware won't rebel however you treat it (with the exception of certain explosives that might just explode if stored in the wrong conditions). People, however, will.

Or, to put it another way - if you've got a population of people who are so powerful, wouldn't you prefer them to have the same (or possibly more) incentive in upholding society as everyone else rather than have them chafing at their bonds and looking for the first opportunity to overthrow it?

#387
AntiChri5

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Taking mage children away from their families and locking them in a tower where they are not even allowed to bathe without a drug addicted heavily armed religious fanatic watching them for the rest of their life is only going to alienate mages. The chantry does everything it can to seperate mages from people. This is a fantastically stupid idea since it will lead to mages feeling that they are completely, fundamentally different to everyone else. The less connected to the '"normals" they are the less they will connect with, empathise and sympathise with them. They will be far more likely to abuse people if they are raised to believe they are "not" people.

#388
DariusKalera

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Taking mage children away from their families and locking them in a tower where they are not even allowed to bathe without a drug addicted heavily armed religious fanatic watching them for the rest of their life is only going to alienate mages. The chantry does everything it can to seperate mages from people. This is a fantastically stupid idea since it will lead to mages feeling that they are completely, fundamentally different to everyone else. The less connected to the '"normals" they are the less they will connect with, empathise and sympathise with them. They will be far more likely to abuse people if they are raised to believe they are "not" people.


Or, on the other hand, the mages see how much more powerful they are when compared to "normals" and start using their powers to control them.

Both explanations are entirely possible when talking about human nature. 

Someone will always abuse the power that they have while others will use it for the benefit of others.  Unfortunately the former usually ruins it for the latter and the whole group ends up being untrusted. 

#389
Lotion Soronarr

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[quote]draxynnus wrote...
1) Mages are also people. Tanks don't mind being locked up. They won't get restless and possibly rebel over being treated in an inhumane manner. People will.[/quote]

But they are also tanks. They are not just people. You cannot treat them liek regular people, casue tehy're nto regular people. That is illogical.

[/quote]
2) You exaggerate their power. Mages are much closer to someone with a bunch of explosives - maybe a grenade launcher - than a tank. Explosives are legal to use in the right environments, with the proper permits - and you certainly don't get locked up just for knowing how to make them. While they're on the border of what is and isn't legal for a common citizen, we come back to the point that explosives won't get resentful about being locked up (although some might explode if stored incorrectly).[/quote]

I'm not exaggerating their power. Some high-level spells are monstrous. Not to mention that their power is fluff-wise greater than it is in-game (for balance reasons).
This is all without touching on the aspect of blood magic OR turning into an abomination.


[quote]
The control methods that basically mean no Mage can live anything like a normal life, however, are pretty much already there - you can track a mage with their phylactory and you have people that can take them down if necessary. Excessive control, however - we see what that caused in Broken Circle, and if it wasn't for Wynne's barrier it's entirely possible that the abominations and demons would have overwhelmed the remaining Templars and spilled out into the countryside. And as people have said, the current system not only failed to prevent this from happening, it caused it - the system led to a significant portion of Mages deciding that it was so unbearable they were willing to take extreme measures to overthrow it. [/quote]

So you'd have mages living among normal human with hit squads coming in if htey go beserk? By that time it would be too late. If a mage or an abomination levels the whole village, lives have already been lost. It simply cannot work that way.

And if you think that mages will misuse their power only because of templars, then you're delluding yourself. Tehy wil always be those that will do it. At least with this system, they misuse it in a control enviroment - they target the temaplrs, not civies.

Now, if it were up to me, I'd keep the current system, but get the templars off Lyrium and putfewer restrictions on mages. But anything more than that is askign for trouble.

#390
Emperor Iaius I

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Why should there be restrictions on mages at all? The reason you see abominations and other disasters so often is because the Chantry denies mages the proper education they deserve. They wage a war of ignorance and demand that everyone else similarly deny themselves the light of knowledge.



A properly trained mage would not become an abomination. Witness how long the magocracy of the Imperium lasted: you'd think that it would constantly be under threat of collapse if mages were so susceptible to problems.



The templars are simply the mindless slaves of the Chantry, and they are not much better than the ignorant fools that populate Ferelden.

#391
SusanStoHelit

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@Emperor Iaius I



Can you change the colour of your signature please? I'd love to read it - and it's illegible.

#392
Emperor Iaius I

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Tragic. I so do like Tyrian Purple, but I suppose it's useless if nobody can read it. Let's try gold.

#393
SusanStoHelit

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Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Tragic. I so do like Tyrian Purple, but I suppose it's useless if nobody can read it. Let's try gold.


Thank you. Silly, I know, but I do love to read the sigs. And what's the point of one you can't read? :D

#394
Derengard

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They are not seen as evil, but as a pain in the ass.

#395
draxynnus

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

draxynnus wrote...
1) Mages are also people. Tanks don't mind being locked up. They won't get restless and possibly rebel over being treated in an inhumane manner. People will.


But they are also tanks. They are not just people. You cannot treat them liek regular people, casue tehy're nto regular people. That is illogical.


But they are people, even if they have unusual abilities. Treating people inhumanely only leads to problems - and even if those problems have been contained every time up to now doesn't mean they will continue to be. How close did Broken Circle come to spilling out into the countryside? What about the Redcliffe situation? Both were, ultimately, the result of the system, and the system barely prevented it in one case (and in my proposal the templars would still be there, just only as police than as judge, jury and executioner), and completely unhelpful in another.

(They're also not tanks - mages are still fairly fragile, after all, hence my comparison to a guy with a rocket launcher instead. Unless they're Arcane Warriors. ;))

2) You exaggerate their power. Mages are much closer to someone with a bunch of explosives - maybe a grenade launcher - than a tank. Explosives are legal to use in the right environments, with the proper permits - and you certainly don't get locked up just for knowing how to make them. While they're on the border of what is and isn't legal for a common citizen, we come back to the point that explosives won't get resentful about being locked up (although some might explode if stored incorrectly).


I'm not exaggerating their power. Some high-level spells are monstrous. Not to mention that their power is fluff-wise greater than it is in-game (for balance reasons).
This is all without touching on the aspect of blood magic OR turning into an abomination.


The destruction a mage could cause is nothing a few strategically placed vans full of fertiliser derivates couldn't do - and you're also talking about high-level magic that most mages aren't going to have. Are we going to lock up everyone who has even the slightest grasp of basic chemistry just because they might someday make a bomb?



So you'd have mages living among normal human with hit squads coming in if htey go beserk? By that time it would be too late. If a mage or an abomination levels the whole village, lives have already been lost. It simply cannot work that way.

Seriously? Excretia occurs, in fantasy universes and in reality. One person with a bomb or a gun can kill a lot of people before the authorities can arrive to deal with them. The hypothetical rogue mage would not be much worse, when you get down to it. In fact, the current system is already littered with plenty of rogue mages around the place (that "abandoned warehouse" in Denerim comes to mind) that it's not like it's doing anything to prevent it anyway.

Make sure that you can ensure that any rogue mage can be stopped (even if there are some casualties beforehand) and that mages aren't kept in conditions that encourage them to rebel, and I expect the situation would be no worse than in the modern world - you get the occasional loony that kills a few (or even a lot) of people before being taken down, but on the whole people are more likely to be killed in a random mugging than by a mage going postal.

Your arguments, applied to the modern world, would only result in a police state. That in Thedas it only applies to a minority doesn't make it any better, especially since all evidence suggests that it fundamentally doesn't work.
 
Actually, let's extend that minority concept. Should every person of Arabian descent in a Western country be locked up because they might be a terrorist? Apart from being a massive human rights violation, would it really help things if they were?

Modifié par draxynnus, 25 janvier 2010 - 08:16 .


#396
Lotion Soronarr

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Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Why should there be restrictions on mages at all? The reason you see abominations and other disasters so often is because the Chantry denies mages the proper education they deserve. They wage a war of ignorance and demand that everyone else similarly deny themselves the light of knowledge.

A properly trained mage would not become an abomination. Witness
how long the magocracy of the Imperium lasted: you'd think that it
would constantly be under threat of collapse if mages were so
susceptible to problems.


Why the restrictions? Because it's the only sane corse of action when you're dealing with that many mages.
And the Circle does educate mages - in a safe, isolated enviroment. The Harrowing is a test of character and  will, but it's still no guarantee a mage won't be possessed.

The mageocracy lasting is not relevant. You should be asking yourself how many aboominations were there and how many people died during that time?
An abomination won't bring down a powerful empire.

#397
Sabriana

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The game itself proves that it is utterly useless to lock up the mages. My PC encountered many rogue mages, and I mean only those with mischief and mayhem on their minds.

The tower houses far fewer than those she encounters throughout her travels. Let's see, four blood mages in the forest, 8 - 10 blood-mages in the abandoned house in the middle of Denerim, including a strong blood-mage leader.

Then there are the cultist mages, quite a few of them, actually.

In Orzammar my PC runs into quite a few mercenary mages when doing the "Jarvia" quest.

II can't think of anymore off the top of my head, but all these mages don't have the betterment of the general population in mind. Yet, none was seemingly able to seize complete power, enthrall the grand cleric, invade the minds of high ranking nobles, etc.

The bombs available in the game (fire, soul-rot, acid, etc.) do just as much damage as the rogue mages do.

Flemeth is a very powerful mage, powerful enough to apparently keep the darkspawn at bay for a long time. She's a shape-changer, so even she could easily infiltrate and destroy whole settlements. And please, don't say that a wolf, bear, spider, etc would be easily spotted. That's Morrgian's magic, and her magic is inferior to Flemeth's.

Flemeth could easily change into something that draws no notice, and then assume the dragon form when the situation is right. What village, settlement or even town could withstand a High Dragon? They couldn't, not without major losses.

#398
Emperor Iaius I

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Soronnar: Education isn't a zero sum endeavor. The Circle educates them, yes, but insufficiently. And as a consequence of the Chantry's repression, there are even more mages running around with far less education--as demonstrated by Sabriana's post above. If only they'd let up.



As far as asking how many abominations there were, I imagine the question is rhetorical. You imply that there was a grave number, yet you cannot possibly know with any sort of certainty. All we know is that society did not crash and burn, and the period was described as a glorious time.

#399
TripLight

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For those asking if there are any female templar:

[quote]Alistair was trained to become a templar
for many years by the Chantry, this being how he learned most of his
skills. He was found to be ill-suited to a life of religious devotion,
however. When Duncan,
a friend to his father, found him, Alistair had not yet taken his vows
and was desperately unhappy. During a tourney held to honor the Grey
Wardens, Duncan decided to recruit him. Alistair was not the most
skilled fighter, bested by acclaimed templars such as Ser Eryhn, a
woman who wielded a sword and shield with unequalled grace
, Ser Talrew
leader of many victories against the Chasind, and Ser Kalvin, one of the finest blades in Ferelden[1].
Yet despite this, Duncan admired Alistair's character above the other
templars present. Sensing that he had a good and loyal heart, Duncan
used the Right of Conscription
to force the Chantry to hand Alistair over to the Grey Wardens before
he took the sacramental vows. The Grand Cleric did not wish to let him
go, but could not supersede the Right of Conscription.
[quote]

From Alistair's page at the Dragon Age Wiki dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Alistair