398 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
...and yet, having all that control did nothing to stop Uldred.  Zathrian abused his power, but there are far reaching examples of non-mages abusing their power as well.  If we assume that unregulated mages are as dangerous as the Chantry teaches us, the Dalish should be nothing but abominations by the time the game picks up.  They have been independant of the Chantry for centuries by this point.  The fact that in centuries of seperation from the Chantry we have one mage that abused his power, and yet wasn't an abomination, although his actions could be seen as such, speaks volumes about what the Chantry teaches.

How do yo uknow we only have one mage? Let's for a seccond assume abominations are jsut as frequent among hte Daelish as everywhere else - do you really think they would liek to talk abou that, or how they deal with them?

The reality of Thedas is that mages ARE dangerous - not only to others, but alos themselves. As Irwing and Wynee put it, the Circle protect them as much as it keeps them confined

The Chantry is exactly like the Catholic Church and the Inquisition and
the Crusades. I hate the Church not because of the Religion it
represents but because of the crimes it has done, while also trying to
come out as innocent.

It is not. You should get more informed about some things, espcially the Inquisition and Crusades. It's is baffling how wrong and distorted the "common knowledge" is from reality.

Either way, what crimes are you talking about? The exhalted march, of which you know next ot nothing?

I think that the majority of those who think the Templar's are wrong,
is not against it because of their attitude to religion, but because of
the claustrophobic feel you can easily get from playing the Mage orgin,
at least that is how I interpret a lot of posts here.

I never got that vibe from the Mage origin.
Every single templar I ran into in the game was a rather normal fellow.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 janvier 2010 - 11:43 .

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I think that the majority of those who think the Templar's are wrong,
is not against it because of their attitude to religion, but because of
the claustrophobic feel you can easily get from playing the Mage orgin,
at least that is how I interpret a lot of posts here.

I never got that vibe from the Mage origin.
Every single templar I ran into in the game was a rather normal fellow.

I wasn't referring to anything the templars say as such. I was referring to the whole emotional impact of seeing the life of a mage as living in "gilded cage", hardly ever setting foot outside the confines of the tower, knowing that if you fail in your training you will be turned into a lobotomized tranquil. That felt very claustrophobic to me, and I judged that many of the posts on this thread contained the same sentiments.

The fact that many Templar's seemed very normal, can be kind of unsettling too. This perfectly normal friendly guy who explains that he will have to kill or lobotomize you if you take one misstep, but hey - nothing personal, I'm really a nice guy, can even feel scary.

Persoanlly I can see how something like the chantry's contorl of the mages is quite natural, especiually in a quasi-medieval setting, but that doesn't make the experience less real if you play it and find it horrible and constraining.

Now if you felt differently, then it's your experience, but it doesn't change what I wrote as I never claimed ALL feel the same.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 janvier 2010 - 12:15 .

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
...and yet, having all that control did nothing to stop Uldred.  Zathrian abused his power, but there are far reaching examples of non-mages abusing their power as well.  If we assume that unregulated mages are as dangerous as the Chantry teaches us, the Dalish should be nothing but abominations by the time the game picks up.  They have been independant of the Chantry for centuries by this point.  The fact that in centuries of seperation from the Chantry we have one mage that abused his power, and yet wasn't an abomination, although his actions could be seen as such, speaks volumes about what the Chantry teaches.

How do yo uknow we only have one mage? Let's for a seccond assume abominations are jsut as frequent among hte Daelish as everywhere else - do you really think they would liek to talk abou that, or how they deal with them?

The reality of Thedas is that mages ARE dangerous - not only to others, but alos themselves. As Irwing and Wynee put it, the Circle protect them as much as it keeps them confined

The Chantry is exactly like the Catholic Church and the Inquisition and
the Crusades. I hate the Church not because of the Religion it
represents but because of the crimes it has done, while also trying to
come out as innocent.

It is not. You should get more informed about some things, espcially the Inquisition and Crusades. It's is baffling how wrong and distorted the "common knowledge" is from reality.

Either way, what crimes are you talking about? The exhalted march, of which you know next ot nothing?

I think that the majority of those who think the Templar's are wrong,
is not against it because of their attitude to religion, but because of
the claustrophobic feel you can easily get from playing the Mage orgin,
at least that is how I interpret a lot of posts here.

I never got that vibe from the Mage origin.
Every single templar I ran into in the game was a rather normal fellow.

Would you care, again, to point me to something in game that indicates that we have frequent abominations in the Dalish camps?  Let's not assume facts that are not in evidence, I realize this is your favorite trick, but it's largely irrelevent to what's presented in game.

Perhaps you should also study history.  Yes, Exalted Marches are exactly the same thing as the Inquisition.  Conversion at sword point is conversion at sword point.  "Come around to the Mercy and Love of our God, or die"...

[Creature 1]

The Templars are only like the police if you chuck the Bill of Rights out the window. Freedom to assemble? Nonsense! Freedom of speech? Nonsense! Freedom to keep and bear arms? Nonsense! (The mages were forbidden to learn how to defend themselves against nonmagical attacks.) Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure? Nonsense! Freedom from deprivation of life, liberty, or property without a trial by one's peers? Nonsense!  (No, you can't leave the Tower.  And by the way, we've signed you up for Tranquility, hope that's all right.)  Freedom from cruel and unusual punishment? Nonsense! (Mages are forcibly possessed by demons against their will, and killed if they fail to fight them off, and if the Templars feel nervous about one of them they just lobotomize them.)

Individual Templars might not be bad people, but the institution is based upon the desire to deprive a segment of the population of their rights.

Modifié par Creature 1, 16 janvier 2010 - 01:17 .

[Creature 1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I know a lot of people hate religion (regular or organized) and therefore hate the Chantry, and in extension, also the templars.

Oh certainly, it's not the habitual violation of human rights that annoys us, it's the fact that they believe in God. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Would you care, again, to point me to something in game that indicates that we have frequent abominations in the Dalish camps?  Let's not assume facts that are not in evidence, I realize this is your favorite trick, but it's largely irrelevent to what's presented in game.

Perhaps you should also study history.  Yes, Exalted Marches are exactly the same thing as the Inquisition.  Conversion at sword point is conversion at sword point.  "Come around to the Mercy and Love of our God, or die"...

Point me to avidence saying that hte Daelish dont' have problems with abominations. Just because someone doesn't speak about something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And no. If you truly are a student of history, then I shudder at how terrible your education was if you don't even know the basics about the Crusades. The Crusades were a war like any other, a DEFENSIVE war that was a response to 4 centuries of muslim invasion. Sure, it's overblown in the media and made to look far more horrifying and evil then it was. But I digress.
You dont' even know the real reason the Exhalted March was called.

[Creature 1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And no. If you truly are a student of history, then I shudder at how terrible your education was if you don't even know the basics about the Crusades. The Crusades were a war like any other, a DEFENSIVE war that was a response to 4 centuries of muslim invasion. Sure, it's overblown in the media and made to look far more horrifying and evil then it was. But I digress.

Yeah, and the Spanish Inquisition really just put people in the comfy chair. 

[AndreaDraco]

My views on the subject are the same as my Libertarian Elf Mage. The Chantry oppresses men, forcing them in ignorance and fear of the unknown, using war and violence to convert people to their own ways. And the Chantry uses the Templars as tools of this fear.

[mousestalker]

Creature 1 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And no. If you truly are a student of history, then I shudder at how terrible your education was if you don't even know the basics about the Crusades. The Crusades were a war like any other, a DEFENSIVE war that was a response to 4 centuries of muslim invasion. Sure, it's overblown in the media and made to look far more horrifying and evil then it was. But I digress.

Yeah, and the Spanish Inquisition really just put people in the comfy chair. 

Well at least they had decent songs and dance moves.

Modifié par mousestalker, 16 janvier 2010 - 02:02 .

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Would you care, again, to point me to something in game that indicates that we have frequent abominations in the Dalish camps?  Let's not assume facts that are not in evidence, I realize this is your favorite trick, but it's largely irrelevent to what's presented in game.

Perhaps you should also study history.  Yes, Exalted Marches are exactly the same thing as the Inquisition.  Conversion at sword point is conversion at sword point.  "Come around to the Mercy and Love of our God, or die"...

Point me to avidence saying that hte Daelish dont' have problems with abominations. Just because someone doesn't speak about something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And no. If you truly are a student of history, then I shudder at how terrible your education was if you don't even know the basics about the Crusades. The Crusades were a war like any other, a DEFENSIVE war that was a response to 4 centuries of muslim invasion. Sure, it's overblown in the media and made to look far more horrifying and evil then it was. But I digress.
You dont' even know the real reason the Exhalted March was called.

Perhaps, when you start studying history, you should also study English.  Crusades does not equal Inquisition.

The fact that you want us to assume that something exists is not proof that it does.  The fact that in two Dalish Camps, playing through the Dalish origin, you don't even hear of one Abomination tells me that it's not all that common, even amongst the Dalish.  You see more abominations in the Mage Tower than any where else in game, barring, of course, the Fade, which you enter through the Mage Tower.  There are 6, maybe it's 7, can't remember off the top of my head Revenants you can encounter, but one of those is in the tower.  It seems like the Chantry preventing mages from becoming Abominations is working swimmingly well, doesn't it?

Again with ignoring events, or the lack there-of in game does not prove or disprove anything.  If the Dalish were having problems with Abominations like the Chantry implies they should be, I'm quite sure as a Dalish you would have heard about it, or known of it.  The Exalted March against the Dalish, according to ingame lore, was because the Dalish forbid the building of a Chantry in the lands they got after Andraste's Exalted March against Tevinter.  You know, the Dales.  So yeah, I have no clue what I'm talking about.  Andraste may well have been justified for her March, but the March against the Elves was done simply to spread the goodness and mercy of the Maker.  Actually, I believe it's because the Chantry teaches that once the Chant of Light is spread to all of Thedas, then the Maker would return.  So yeah, I have no idea why they would want to declare war against people that reject them.

[SusanStoHelit]

Yes. So even if everything the Chantry teaches about mages was true (it isn't, but even if it was), it's evident from what happens in Ferelden that their measures are counter-productive.



In other words, the very measures they take to protect people and prevent abominations and so forth from happening - actually make them more likely to happen because the mages have been driven to desperate measures.

[mousestalker]

Well, the easiest way to put the templars in their place would be to point out certain salient facts to Loghain.



The templars are run by the Chantry. The mages are independently franchised. The Chantry is headed out of Orlais. Therefore the templars are effectively Orlesian tools.



I wonder if that's the argument Uldred used?

[ReubenLiew]

I doubt it's that easy.

The philosophy they probaby take is that it's better that more abominations happen under their watch where they can contain it than have less abominations happen where they can't.

Even a single abomination loose on the world can have serious consequences. Better that only a select few suffer under this prison than to have countless other innocents suffer in return.

[Costin_Razvan]

Actually, I believe it's because the Chantry teaches that once the Chant of Light is spread to all of Thedas, then the Maker would return. So yeah, I have no idea why they would want to declare war against people that reject them.

That played a part, but it was not the reason.

Orlais moved against the Dales, when the Dalish retaliated and took Val Royeaux the Chantry started a holy war against them.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 16 janvier 2010 - 02:51 .

[SusanStoHelit]

ReubenLiew wrote...

I doubt it's that easy.
The philosophy they probaby take is that it's better that more abominations happen under their watch where they can contain it than have less abominations happen where they can't.
Even a single abomination loose on the world can have serious consequences. Better that only a select few suffer under this prison than to have countless other innocents suffer in return.

Which is why they are completely immoral, wrong, and just plain 'bad'. Let us then select any group of people in which dangerous people who bring harm to others can, have in the past, or may in the future, arise - and then oppress and imprison the entire group. In fact, let's do it for all such groups. For a start, that means we have to oppress and imprison the Chantry. And the templars.

[ReubenLiew]

You cannot simply lump it with real life comparisons. We don't have people who are naturally radioactive when they feel like it and can suddenly kill hundreds of people with a thought. Mages are dangerous without proper guidance, if they're not taught how to use their powers they might unleash horrific damage on everyone else. It is almost never a question of if, it's a question of when. If they were incredibly angry at some point, it could demolish entire villages.



The people we have on earth do not have this potential to cause such horrific damage through their own physical (or metaphysical) damage, so please don't try to use real world references to try and put this into your perspective, it's mocking our intelligence.

[legbamel]

I don't hate the Templar. I feel sorry for them. They're trained to be sheep, drugged and lied to throughout their lives and forced into a Qunari-like system where they can't change their minds and have a different life. Consider the possessed guy in the tower and the letter of censure you get from him. He wanted out and couldn't leave.



From watching Alistair holy smite things, I'd say that the comment about their powers only being effective on mages is a bunch of hogwash, in addition to the fact that they are trained as fighters as well as having their powers "enhanced".

[ReubenLiew]

Hmmm I misread your post, susan, but the point stands. None of the other peoples in Thedas has that kind of potential for such widespread catastrophic damage as mages do. Their powers are natural, and often uncontrollable, and as such they are all just weapons in human(elven) form. It's sad, but it might be necessary.

[ReubenLiew]

meh double post.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 16 janvier 2010 - 03:00 .

[SusanStoHelit]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Mages are dangerous without proper guidance, if they're not taught how to use their powers they might unleash horrific damage on everyone else. It is almost never a question of if, it's a question of when. If they were incredibly angry at some point, it could demolish entire villages.

I never disputed mages needed training and/or checks and balances. I simply disputed that the Chantry and Templars should be the ones to provide it.

I'm not even going to address the rest of it - since as I said much earlier in this thread, the OP didn't ask for us to solve the Chantry/Templar versus Mage problems and come up with a fair and just solution. Nor did he/she ask if the Chantry/Templars were right. The question asked was why some people who played DAO didn't like the Templars.

I think we've shown them why some players feel that way. The fact that you don't feel that way is not germane to the original question.

[ReubenLiew]

Ah well. I was just posting out that while I feel that it is probably regrettable, it is probably necessary, and I can't hate the Templars for doing what they do. It's like hating a soldier for killing his country's enemies even though he has little choice in the matter even though those people are my people.

[steelfire_dragon]

the Templars are evil because:
of their blind eye tatics
failure to screen their templars personality wise.
abuse of mages
being stuck up beeches
violating personal space( come on you dont have to watch yonder female mage using the chamber pot)
Exualted marches

Modifié par steelfire_dragon, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:33 .

[robertthebard]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Actually, I believe it's because the Chantry teaches that once the Chant of Light is spread to all of Thedas, then the Maker would return. So yeah, I have no idea why they would want to declare war against people that reject them.

That played a part, but it was not the reason.

Orlais moved against the Dales, when the Dalish retaliated and took Val Royeaux the Chantry started a holy war against them.

You're going to have to provide something from in game for this.  The Dales existed just fine for centuries until the Chantry insisted on building the Chantry there, which was met by an Exalted March that completely destroyed the Dales, and caused a part of the Elves to accept Chantry rule, and life in the Alienages.  The rest became the Dalish.  Nowhere in game have I seen anything that said that the Elves sacked Val Royeaux.  So provide some codexes to that affect, since I really think you have this mixed up with something else.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The inquisition is even worse than the Templars, why do people keep equating the two? Templars are here to control a small part of society that has proven it self to be potentially dangerous. The inquisition was designed to eradicate the Muslim and Jewish population of Iberia through forced conversion, deportation or outright murder (basically, a genocide), which was not necessary. I don't like the system that Chantry has set up, but to compare it to the Inquisition is too much of an exagerration. Controlling mages is a necessity (how is that done is a different question). Eradicating two groups of peoples, ethnies and religious groups is not.

Yes I realise that the Chantry did all of the above, but it was not through the Templars.

And lol at the Crusades being defensive. I know that the Arab Christians (the original ones) didn't give a damn about their European so called "brothers" and in fact resisted this "defensive" invasion.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 janvier 2010 - 03:42 .

[SusanStoHelit]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The inquisition is even worse than the Templars, why do people keep equating the two? Templars are here to control a small part of society that has proven it self to be potentially dangerous. The inquisition was designed to eradicate the Muslim and Jewish population of Iberia through forced conversion, deportation or outright murder (basically, a genocide), which was not necessary. I don't like the system that Chantry has set up, but to compare it to the Inquisition is too much of an exagerration. Controlling mages is a necessity (how is that done is a different question). Eradicating two groups of peoples, ethnies and religious groups is not.
Yes I realise that the Chantry did all of the above, but it was not through the Templars.

In fact, all of those who've posted here (I think) have said they don't (entirely) blame the Templars. They blame the Chantry. Nevertheless the Templars are puppets of the Chantry, controlled through the use of lyrium, and prone to going crazy as a result. They are as almost as much victims as the Mages. Nevertheless, 'just following orders' is not an acceptable excuse. Incorrect actions are still incorrect actions, no matter who told you to do them.