398 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The inquisition is even worse than the Templars, why do people keep equating the two? Templars are here to control a small part of society that has proven it self to be potentially dangerous. The inquisition was designed to eradicate the Muslim and Jewish population of Iberia through forced conversion, deportation or outright murder (basically, a genocide), which was not necessary. I don't like the system that Chantry has set up, but to compare it to the Inquisition is too much of an exagerration. Controlling mages is a necessity (how is that done is a different question). Eradicating two groups of peoples, ethnies and religious groups is not.

Yes I realise that the Chantry did all of the above, but it was not through the Templars.

And lol at the Crusades being defensive. I know that the Arab Christians (the original ones) didn't give a damn about their European so called "brothers" and in fact resisted this "defensive" invasion.

I made my comparison of the Chantry to the Inquisition perfectly clear, conversion at sword point.  The Exalted March of the Dales was exactly that, conversion at sword point, and if you think they don't use their Templars as an army, I would suggest that you are mistaken.

[SusanStoHelit]

robertthebard wrote...

I made my comparison of the Chantry to the Inquisition perfectly clear, conversion at sword point.  The Exalted March of the Dales was exactly that, conversion at sword point, and if you think they don't use their Templars as an army, I would suggest that you are mistaken.

Indeed, right at the beginning of the game Alistair tells you that the Templars are, in fact, the Chantry's own 'private army'.

[KnightofPhoenix]

robertthebard wrote...
I made my comparison of the Chantry to the Inquisition perfectly clear, conversion at sword point.  The Exalted March of the Dales was exactly that, conversion at sword point, and if you think they don't use their Templars as an army, I would suggest that you are mistaken.

It's more about controlling mages than converting them. Otherwise, they wouldn't allow fraternities to develop. But even still, the Inquisition was targetted at a large part of the population. The templars are targetting a much smaller one that, once again, can be dangerous.
Exalted Marches were done by Andrastian nations, mostly Orlais. Whether the Templars participated or not, is unknown. Probable, but not necessarily so.

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
I made my comparison of the Chantry to the Inquisition perfectly clear, conversion at sword point.  The Exalted March of the Dales was exactly that, conversion at sword point, and if you think they don't use their Templars as an army, I would suggest that you are mistaken.

It's more about controlling mages than converting them. Otherwise, they wouldn't allow fraternities to develop. But even still, the Inquisition was targetted at a large part of the population. The templars are targetting a much smaller one that, once again, can be dangerous.
Exalted Marches were done by Andrastian nations, mostly Orlais. Whether the Templars participated or not, is unknown. Probable, but not necessarily so.

Exalted Marches are done by the Chantry, other than Andraste's, since there was no Chantry then.  The Chantry is a direct result of Andraste.  It was she who penned the Chant of Light.  However, it's still interesting that the place with the most "control" by the Chantry is the place that became the most infested place in the game with Abominations.  The Templar's role is to supervise, and to hunt down rogue mages.  It's interesting to note that any mage that is not a Circle Mage is considered Maleficar, even if they are not a Blood Mage, or possessed.  The tower is both a sanctuary and a prison.  Roll a mage, and ask Irving if you can leave the tower.

[KnightofPhoenix]

robertthebard wrote...
Exalted Marches are done by the Chantry, other than Andraste's, since there was no Chantry then.  The Chantry is a direct result of Andraste.  It was she who penned the Chant of Light.  However, it's still interesting that the place with the most "control" by the Chantry is the place that became the most infested place in the game with Abominations.  The Templar's role is to supervise, and to hunt down rogue mages.  It's interesting to note that any mage that is not a Circle Mage is considered Maleficar, even if they are not a Blood Mage, or possessed.  The
tower is both a sanctuary and a prison.  Roll a mage, and ask Irving if you can leave the tower.

Thanks for all the info, which I already know, what does this have to do with Templars? Exalted marches are declared by the Chantry, and Andrastian nations comply and go to war, mostly Orlais being the superpower. We do not know if the Templars participate.

Yes, Templars hunt down any mage outsid the circle, but they don't hunt own the average joe and force him to convert, or deport him, or murder him. I  don't like this practise, don't get me wrong. But I think it's a  stretch to compare it to the inquisition. Some Templars show affection and concern for mages in the Tower. The Inquisition didn't have any affection for the Muslims, Jews or the Christians that weren't Christian enough.

While it is difficult to seperate the Chantry and the Templars, I think we should focus more on the Templars themselves, instead of only the Chantry (which I dislike).

[Bhatair]

infernoASH wrote...

 I don't get it after all thats happened the circle and there blood mages taking over the tower i think having templars around is a good idea it only further proves that they need more templars.

Yeah, forget about that little detail of the uprising being about getting out from beneath the Chantry's heel.

[Creature 1]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But I think it's a  stretch to compare it to the inquisition. Some Templars show affection and concern for mages in the Tower. The Inquisition didn't have any affection for the Muslims, Jews or the Christians that weren't Christian enough.

I understand concentration camp guards sometimes had sex with prisoners and imagined themselves in love. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Creature 1 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But I think it's a  stretch to compare it to the inquisition. Some Templars show affection and concern for mages in the Tower. The Inquisition didn't have any affection for the Muslims, Jews or the Christians that weren't Christian enough.

I understand concentration camp guards sometimes had sex with prisoners and imagined themselves in love. 

Some soldiers did indeed love and even freed some of the prisoners.

But it's different. The Circle, while being a prison, is not a concentration camp. Most mage fraternities agree that they need to be trained and the circle does that. A concentration camp doesn't educate people, teach them to use their power, provides libraries, supervised by the elders...etc. The Circle does. It is supervised by First Enchanters and the Templars, together.
I understand people hate the Chantry. But it's really an exagerration to suggest that the Circle is a concentration camp or that the Templars are like the Inquisition.
The Qunari practise on mages is, on the otherhand, similar to a conccentration camp.

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Exalted Marches are done by the Chantry, other than Andraste's, since there was no Chantry then.  The Chantry is a direct result of Andraste.  It was she who penned the Chant of Light.  However, it's still interesting that the place with the most "control" by the Chantry is the place that became the most infested place in the game with Abominations.  The Templar's role is to supervise, and to hunt down rogue mages.  It's interesting to note that any mage that is not a Circle Mage is considered Maleficar, even if they are not a Blood Mage, or possessed.  The
tower is both a sanctuary and a prison.  Roll a mage, and ask Irving if you can leave the tower.

Thanks for all the info, which I already know, what does this have to do with Templars? Exalted marches are declared by the Chantry, and Andrastian nations comply and go to war, mostly Orlais being the superpower. We do not know if the Templars participate.

Yes, Templars hunt down any mage outsid the circle, but they don't hunt own the average joe and force him to convert, or deport him, or murder him. I  don't like this practise, don't get me wrong. But I think it's a  stretch to compare it to the inquisition. Some Templars show affection and concern for mages in the Tower. The Inquisition didn't have any affection for the Muslims, Jews or the Christians that weren't Christian enough.

While it is difficult to seperate the Chantry and the Templars, I think we should focus more on the Templars themselves, instead of only the Chantry (which I dislike).

Based on your response, I clarified who declares Exalted Marches, in your initial reply to me, you said it was Andrastrian nations initially, and I clarified my point.  You cannot, however, seperate the Chantry and the Templars, you would not have Templars w/out the Chantry.  In theory, they are supposed to be the Chantry's arm, and so, anything they do as a group can be attributed to the Chantry.  Looking at the smaller Chantry's spread out, and considering that they all have Templars, are we then to assume that the Chantry doesn't use their soldiers in a war, and that if the player does set up the Chantry in Orzammar, and it does happen that the march is declared, that all Andrastrian Nations will now march against the Dwarves for rejecting the Chantry?

[Ruathall]

I haven't played a mage yet, so my perspective is probably a bit skewed. My first impression of templars came from the ones in Lothering and it was a good one. These guys were the only soldiers willing to stay until the bitter end to try and protect the remaining villagers and refugees, a lost cause, yet one that they don't give up. In my eyes, this seems to be heroism and sacrifice to equal at the very least, anything the pc does in the game.



I'm agnostic, (though leaning far more to the athiest side), so I generally feel pretty dubious about religious organisations and I can see there's a very ugly side of the Chantry. That said, a lot of the Chantry npcs I encountered in the game seemed to be genuinely striving towards the highest ideals of their faith.

[Creature 1]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Some soldiers did indeed love and even freed some of the prisoners.

Most just exploited them.

But it's different. The Circle, while being a prison, is not a concentration camp. Most mage fraternities agree that they need to be trained and the circle does that. A concentration camp doesn't educate people, teach them to use their power, provides libraries, supervised by the elders...etc. The Circle does. It is supervised by First Enchanters and the Templars, together.
I understand people hate the Chantry. But it's really an exagerration to suggest that the Circle is a concentration camp or that the Templars are like the Inquisition.
The Qunari practise on mages is, on the otherhand, similar to a conccentration camp.

It's a difference of degree, not of kind.  The mages have no liberty.  Certainly mages need to be trained, but they don't need to be locked up in a Tower and separated from contact with the rest of the world.  Obviously this method does not work to prevent abominations, instead it seems to be good at feeding them. 

The Circle is not about preventing abominations.  There is nothing about the Tower that would make mages less likely to become possessed.  Instead, they make it more likely, at first by taking young mages and forcing possession upon them.  At a guess most mages are in their teens to twenties when they are Harrowed.  It's likely that some mages who fail the Harrowing would have survived if they had encountered a demon on their own years down the road--and also likely that they never would have met the threat of possession at all.  Secondly, being imprisoned for their entire lives, cut away from society, and forbidden to have a normal life and normal relationships (mages just don't marry or have children, the culture does not allow for this) drives some of the mages to seek an escape.  Since the tower is almost impossible to escape and they don't have the mundane means to do it, that means looking for magical means.  The best way to rapidly accrue power is to make a deal with a demon.  Thus the blood mages in the Tower and the resulting abominations.  The Templars keep the mages under their thumb so that they will be able to rapidly kill abominations as they arise, but their tactics make the problem more severe. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

robertthebard wrote...
Based on your response, I clarified who declares Exalted Marches, in your initial reply to me, you said it was Andrastrian nations initially, and I clarified my point.  You cannot, however, seperate the Chantry and the Templars, you would not have Templars w/out the Chantry.  In theory, they are supposed to be the Chantry's arm, and so, anything they do as a group can be attributed to the Chantry.  Looking at the smaller Chantry's spread out, and considering that they all have Templars, are we then to assume that the Chantry doesn't use their soldiers in a war, and that if the player does set up the Chantry in Orzammar, and it does happen that the march is declared, that all Andrastrian Nations will now march against the Dwarves for rejecting the Chantry?

This is what happened for the Exalted March on the Dales and the Exalted Marches on the Qunari. All Andrastian nations, lead by Orlais, participated. It was not the Chantry who provided the army. Though I would assume the Templars were sent to hunt down elven mages. But they were far from being the backbones of the Marches.

The Templars serve a specific purpose within the Chantry. But they are not responsable for all chantry policies, nor the religion itself. If we are to judge the Tempalrs fairly, we must judge them by their purpose, not by the whole organisation.

[Xandurpein]

I think the way the chantry controls the mages via the templars is a pretty awful system. I can accept that a society where a small minority of the populace are mages with great power and running a risk of becoming beacons for demonic infestation would deem it necessary to impose some sort of control of Mages. However much I think it's horrible on a personal level, I can even see how a society like Ferelden can come up with nothing better to do it than the circle, even thuogh there definitly things that can be reformed.



But I simply cannot see how the chantry treatment of the templars themselves can be defended. Why oversee the templars with an addiction? It just strikes me as plain wrong.



Correct me if I'm am wrong, but isn't one of the game endings that the King sets up a new circle, without the Templars? Does this end in disaster or is it possible?

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Creature 1
You are tellign me things I already know. But all that you said doesn't make the Circle like a concentration camp. I think it's taking concentration camps too lightly if you honestly believe that the Circle is one. 
In my mage playthrough, it felt like a prison. But no where near a cocnentration camp.

I am playing the devil's advocate here, because I think the criticism against the Templars is way too exagerrated. I dislike tthe Templars as an organsiation, and I certaily disliek the Chantry. But I wouldn't exagerrate in my criticism. Try to keep it more objective and factual.  

[Creature 1]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Creature 1
You are tellign me things I already know. But all that you said doesn't make the Circle like a concentration camp. I think it's taking concentration camps too lightly if you honestly believe that the Circle is one. 
In my mage playthrough, it felt like a prison. But no where near a cocnentration camp.

Perhaps you should look up what concentration camps are.  They are used for concentrating groups of noncombatants with a common characteristic together to control them.  That is exactly the purpose of the Circle. 

I am playing the devil's advocate here, because I think the criticism against the Templars is way too exagerrated. I dislike tthe Templars as an organsiation, and I certaily disliek the Chantry. But I wouldn't exagerrate in my criticism. Try to keep it more objective and factual. 

What have I said that is not factual?  The mages are deprived of their rights without cause. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
The fact that you want us to assume that something exists is not proof that it does.  The fact that in two Dalish Camps, playing through the Dalish origin, you don't even hear of one Abomination tells me that it's not all that common, even amongst the Dalish.  You see more abominations in the Mage Tower than any where else in game, barring, of course, the Fade, which you enter through the Mage Tower.  There are 6, maybe it's 7, can't remember off the top of my head Revenants you can encounter, but one of those is in the tower.  It seems like the Chantry preventing mages from becoming Abominations is working swimmingly well, doesn't it?

Funny how we see no more htan 2 dalish mages in either camp.
Are you saying there ar only 4 dalish mages total? If there's only that many, then there's no wonder an abomination would be something rare.

The Exalted March against the Dalish, according to ingame lore, was because the Dalish forbid the building of a Chantry in the lands they got after Andraste's Exalted March against Tevinter.  You know, the Dales.  So yeah, I have no clue what I'm talking about.

No, you obviously don't. The lore entries have been written by specific people and do not represent the objective truth. If you paid closer attention, you would see there is more than one version of what started the exhalted marches.
not saying that hte marches themsevles were a good thing, but things are not as black and white as you would have us belive.

[Costin_Razvan]

robertthebard wrote...
You're going to have to provide something from in game for this. 

Fair enough.

"And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of
Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales,
and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end. Halamshiral was
utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left to survive on
goodwill alone.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar."


There is also this to look at: http://social.biowar...ry_of_the_Elves and this : http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ages, namely in the latter.

Glory
2:5 Glory: Increasing hostility between elves and man result in numerous border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais.
Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red
Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have
been committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen.
2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March
of the Dales. While the elves eventually sack Val Royeaux and push well
into human lands, Halamshiral is conquered and the elves are completely
crushed by 2:20 Glory. The lands of the Dales come under Orlesian
control, with elven settlements being uprooted and worship of the elven
gods forbidden. The elves are forced to either live with humankind and
under their rules or wander as homeless vagabonds.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Yes. So even if everything the Chantry teaches about mages was true (it isn't, but even if it was), it's evident from what happens in Ferelden that their measures are counter-productive.

In other words, the very measures they take to protect people and prevent abominations and so forth from happening - actually make them more likely to happen because the mages have been driven to desperate measures.

Really? It seems to me the mesures proved efective enough - the abominations don't spread out of the tower. The danger is contained.  Both the mages and the populace protected from abominations.
I'd say that's mission accomplished.

If you somehow think that without the Templars or the Circle there wouldn't be no abominations, then all I can do is laugh.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Creature 1 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Creature 1
You are tellign me things I already know. But all that you said doesn't make the Circle like a concentration camp. I think it's taking concentration camps too lightly if you honestly believe that the Circle is one. 
In my mage playthrough, it felt like a prison. But no where near a cocnentration camp.

Perhaps you should look up what concentration camps are.  They are used for concentrating groups of noncombatants with a common characteristic together to control them.  That is exactly the purpose of the Circle. 

First off, mages are not really noncombatants. They are not like average joe who pose no threat being thrown in a concentration camp. Mages are potentially very dangerous.
Do concentration camps provide education?
Do concentration camps provide libraries? 
Do concentration camps allow the interned to form political parties?
Does the Circle practise forced labor?

Please, be serious. The Circle is a place where the mages are controlled and interned, but also given some comodities, training and education, as well as possibility to parcitipate in circle politics. But it's not a concentration camp.
Perhaps internment camp is a better word. But they are certainly not like Soviet concentration camps.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 janvier 2010 - 04:41 .

[Creature 1]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
First off, mages are not really noncombatants. They are not like average joe who pose no threat being thrown in a concentration camp. Mages are potentially very dangerous.

So am I, with a few guns.  Doesn't mean I'm not a noncombatant. 

Do concentration camps provide education?
Do concentration camps provide libraries?

Yes. 

Do concentration camps allow the interned to form political parties?

There's only so much you can do to suppress dissent.  When some of the groups formed benefit you, you encourage those. 

Does the Circle practise forced labor?

Oh, you don't want to go there.  They made mages Tranquil against their will and use them to produce enchanted items, which are sold for funds to benefit the Circle. 

Perhaps internment camp is a better word.

A distinction with no difference. 

Modifié par Creature 1, 16 janvier 2010 - 04:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Creature 1
If you own guns, you are subject to arrest in most countries, since owning guns is illegal. But you are not born with guns, so you can't be thrown in without trial. The mages are born capable of being destructive, so they are interned and controlled. Not saying it's a good thing, but that's the logic and is very different from you owning guns. 

The Japanese relocation / internment camps are not concentration camps. While in principle a concentration camp and an internment camp are similar, they are also, in practise very different. Gulags and Naz.i camps are seen as the archetype of concentration camps, as well as the camps used by Britian against the Boers.
I am not saying it's a good thing. But it's not as bad as a concentration camp.
But I think we are arguing semantics here.

Most or at least a large part of Tranquils are so by their own will. Plus, the money provided is to the Circle, Mages included. While in a forced labor camp, the workers dot not get any benefit from their work, nor does the camp as a whole.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 janvier 2010 - 05:00 .

[Creature 1]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
@ Creature 1
If you own guns, you are subject to arrest in most countries, since owning guns is illegal.

If you live in one of these countries perhaps that is why you have such a lackadaisical attitude towards human rights.  I own guns. 

Not saying it's a good thing, but that's the logic and is very different from you owning guns.

No, it's not.  They're locking up people who have shown no sign of being dangerous besides having the capacity to be dangerous.  Everyone has the capacity to be dangerous, most people are not.  Unless your'e paraplegic, you're a risk, and then even if you are you can cause trouble by manipulating people around you. 

The Japanese relocation / internment camps are not concentration camps. While in principle a concentration camp and an internment camp are similar, they are also, in practise very different.

Dancing around the issue.  The "relocation camps" are by definition concentration camps.  Saying they're not as bad as Auschwitz doesn't make them not concentration camps.  The German concentration camps before they decided on the Final Solution were not primarily intended for mass murder, but they were still concentration camps. 

Most or at least a large part of Tranquils are so by their own will.

So the few that get held down and lobotomized are excusable? 

Plus, the money provided is to the Circle, Mages included. While in a forced labor camp, the workers nor the camp get any benefit from their work.

So if I get some homeless teenage girl and pimp her out, does it make it ok if I buy her a dress? 

[Xandurpein]

In theory at least, someone would only become a tranquil if they are either engaging in blood magic or someone who is judged incapable of learning to control their magic enough to avoid becoming an abomination. So making them a tanquil is basically another way to protect society from danger. I leave it up to everyone to decide for themselves if becoming tranquil is better or worse than being killed or being consumed by a demon, which seems to be the available alternatives.

[robertthebard]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
You're going to have to provide something from in game for this. 

Fair enough.

"And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of
Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales,
and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end. Halamshiral was
utterly destroyed, the elves driven out, scattered, left to survive on
goodwill alone.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar."


There is also this to look at: http://social.biowar...ry_of_the_Elves and this : http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ages, namely in the latter.

Glory
2:5 Glory: Increasing hostility between elves and man result in numerous border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais.
Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red
Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have
been committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen.
2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March
of the Dales. While the elves eventually sack Val Royeaux and push well
into human lands, Halamshiral is conquered and the elves are completely
crushed by 2:20 Glory. The lands of the Dales come under Orlesian
control, with elven settlements being uprooted and worship of the elven
gods forbidden. The elves are forced to either live with humankind and
under their rules or wander as homeless vagabonds.

Consider this which tells a completely different story.  Also consider that this entry matches what Leliana tells of the history of the Elves, and she's pretty dedicated to her worship of the Maker.  Note that the only village mentioned in my link, which you provided, is Red Crossing.  Halamshiral is the Elven capital of the Dales.