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[Jafari]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Grey Wardens in the 41th millenium

The pool is closed...Indefinitely. ಠ_ಠ
But talking now on a more serious note you can’t paint every Templar as a mage abusing, mindless zealot. That is saying that every Grey Warden is a true noble warrior, corruption has happened in the Grey Wardens and the Wardens in Anderfels practically run the country.

The Templars basically comes down to this; “One man’s hero is another man’s villain.”

Modifié par Links-2-3-4, 17 janvier 2010 - 01:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Althernai wrote...
The argument is not that there would be no abominations, but that if mages were treated a little bit more like human beings, there would be fewer abominations and they'd do less harm.

Proof or it didn't happen. Statistics. Something to back up that claim.

The Mages Collective is not proof. TI's a far smaller organizations and it's no monitored, so even if abominations DO happen, it's not like you're gonna know.

Furthermore, in both cases, the Templars do practically nothing. In the Tower, all they do is lock the children in -- the abominations are actually held in check by Wynne. At Redcliffe, there is not a single Templar to be found. The one and only Templar who actually tries to do something against the supernatural is the blind one in the Denerim Alienage, but he is badly outmatched and no reinforcements appear to be forthcoming.

The templars did fight. They locked the door cause they were taken by surprise and had to stop the abominations from leaving the tower. As far as they knew, there were no survivors.
There is not a single templar at Redciffle, so I fail to see what point your trying to make here. They're not psychic to know where an abominations will appear.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Antigone2283 wrote...
Isolde, a non-mage, really bears responsibility for a GREAT deal of the destruction at Redcliffe:  her fear of her boy being taken away from her (and probably made Tranquil or killed outright, having already proved his "weakness" and susceptibility for being possessed) kept her from telling anyone what was happening.  The demon went unchecked for days because of fear of the Chantry's system.  Connor's complete and utter lack of proper training no doubt also played a role in his susceptibility, and that lack of trraining was, AGAIN, the result of fear of the system set up for mages.

Result of stupidity I would say.

As for the Templars you met being "reasonable" and respectful, you interacted with them as a Grey Warden, and mage or no, everyone starts treating you differently once you're a Grey Warden.  In the mage origin, the templars you can talk to are cold and disdainful.  When you return later and complete the Circle quest, you can later overhear a couple of Templars in the hall wondering to each other why they have to take the dead mages across the lake and burn them...they'd rather just throw them in the lake. Yes, veeeeery respecful.  Cullen's writer, Sheryl Chee, just recently described the potential Cullen relationship (with FemPC mage, in Origin - he expresses some sort of crush on her) this way: "Yes, there's nothing romantic about the scenario in my mind. I imagine it would be very quick, very violent, and only undertaken as a way to get her out of his system." 

I played the mage origin twice and I've not met a "cold and disdainfull" templar.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Althernai wrote...
The argument is not that there would be no abominations, but that if mages were treated a little bit more like human beings, there would be fewer abominations and they'd do less harm.

Proof or it didn't happen. Statistics. Something to back up that claim.

The Mages Collective is not proof. TI's a far smaller organizations and it's no monitored, so even if abominations DO happen, it's not like you're gonna know.

It is stated in the game that some mages felt so constrained by the policies in the tower that they resorted to Blood magic, because they felt it was the only way to free themselves. This was why they followed Uldred and the circle was broken. There is no PROOF, that they would never have followed Uldred if they had been treated better, but I think it is a reasonable argument to suggest it would probably have been so. 

But then again, proof is very important when you don't agree. Your own claims are not burdened by the same need...

[Lotion Soronarr]

DanaScu wrote...

The non-possessed mages and the children locked in the tower *with* the abominations by the Templars who ran instead of fighting? They sure weren't protected. Irving and the other non-possessed mages imprisoned and tortured at the top of the tower while the righteous templars waited for reinforcements to slaughter everything in the tower weren't protected. When their reinforcements arrived, they would have gone in and killed everyone, including the children and the other non-possessed mages, which is the exact opposite of "protected", imo.

By that logic, the Grey Wardens are a dismal failiure because of Ostagar. You cannot win all battles, and sometimes you're taken by surpriuse, victim of treason or overwhelmed.
What did you expect the templars to do?
Waiting for reinforcements was the most sensible thing to do.

And don't even bring the player into this. The player is the player - he has the awesome power of save/load, difficulty changes and cheats. For all intense and purposes, he is a demi-god and the "but the PC did it and X couldn't" is not a valid argument.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Result of stupidity I would say.

I played the mage origin twice and I've not met a "cold and disdainfull" templar.

It's just possible that your definition of cold and disdainful is different from Antigone2283, judging from the top quote I would think so at least...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...
It is stated in the game that some mages felt so constrained by the policies in the tower that they resorted to Blood magic, because they felt it was the only way to free themselves. This was why they followed Uldred and the circle was broken. There is no PROOF, that they would never have followed Uldred if they had been treated better, but I think it is a reasonable argument to suggest it would probably have been so. 

It doesn't matter what mode of oversight you make, some will ALLWAYS feel it's too much.

[robertthebard]

Xandurpein wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Althernai wrote...
The argument is not that there would be no abominations, but that if mages were treated a little bit more like human beings, there would be fewer abominations and they'd do less harm.

Proof or it didn't happen. Statistics. Something to back up that claim.

The Mages Collective is not proof. TI's a far smaller organizations and it's no monitored, so even if abominations DO happen, it's not like you're gonna know.

It is stated in the game that some mages felt so constrained by the policies in the tower that they resorted to Blood magic, because they felt it was the only way to free themselves. This was why they followed Uldred and the circle was broken. There is no PROOF, that they would never have followed Uldred if they had been treated better, but I think it is a reasonable argument to suggest it would probably have been so. 

But then again, proof is very important when you don't agree. Your own claims are not burdened by the same need...

...and they never will be.  The "Let's assume there were Abominations in the Dalish Camp" line bears out that proof is only needed when he is disputed by something.  That there are no instances in codex concerning them means nothing, afterall, no evidence to disprove his claim means he's right, despite the fact that there's no evidence to support his claim.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
It is stated in the game that some mages felt so constrained by the policies in the tower that they resorted to Blood magic, because they felt it was the only way to free themselves. This was why they followed Uldred and the circle was broken. There is no PROOF, that they would never have followed Uldred if they had been treated better, but I think it is a reasonable argument to suggest it would probably have been so. 

It doesn't matter what mode of oversight you make, some will ALLWAYS feel it's too much.

That is also a ridiculous argument. Of course the numberr of people who rebell against percieved opression will have a relationship to the level of opression. It wasn't a statistically easily explained away number of mages who joined Uldred.

[SusanStoHelit]

Too true. I'm waiting for him to prove - statistics please - that there were abominations among the Dalish and the Mages Collective.



None so far.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...

That is also a ridiculous argument. Of course the numberr of people who rebell against percieved opression will have a relationship to the level of opression. It wasn't a statistically easily explained away number of mages who joined Uldred.

Well it's also a redicolous argument that just because a few mages have rebbeled, that the system is hideously opressive.
Also note that the number of those who initially joned Uldred wasn't high - he had to use blood magic to break the will of mages so more would be possessed.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

That is also a ridiculous argument. Of course the numberr of people who rebell against percieved opression will have a relationship to the level of opression. It wasn't a statistically easily explained away number of mages who joined Uldred.

Well it's also a redicolous argument that just because a few mages have rebbeled, that the system is hideously opressive.
Also note that the number of those who initially joned Uldred wasn't high - he had to use blood magic to break the will of mages so more would be possessed.

Note that this was the Abomination that was Uldred creating more abominations, not recruiting more blood mages.  Also of note is that he only has to do that once, for the dramatic, dun dun dun, look what the Abomination formerly known as Uldred is doing to the mages cutscene.  Isn't it odd then, that he can then proceed to turn the remaining mages into abominations without the ritualistic, needing more abominations to help him scene after the fight begins?

[mousestalker]

I don't know if it counts as 'among', but Master Renold got killed by an abomination, didn't he? There's a Mages Collective quest random encounter that covers that.



Even assuming that the encounter does just that, it still proves nothing. We have absolutely no statistics one way or the other. All we have is anecdotal evidence. Circle purges may be great rarities or annual events, we do not know.

[ReubenLiew]

There is a number to the purges, ya know.

There has only been 14 purges through time.

[legbamel]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The templars did fight. They locked the door cause they were taken by surprise and had to stop the abominations from leaving the tower. As far as they knew, there were no survivors.
There is not a single templar at Redciffle, so I fail to see what point your trying to make here. They're not psychic to know where an abominations will appear.

What, you believe that Wynne or one of the other mages in there with the children didn't knock on that huge door and say, "Hey, there are children in here!  Help us save them!"?  They had to know that there were survivors.  They simply didn't think that they could save themselves if it turned out to be a trick.  'Course, I've cast a spell or two through a closed door myself, but I don't think those handy red circles mark people for NPCs or pretty glyphs show the AOE when casting, either. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree that Uldred rebelled because, as a libratarian, he couldn't bear Chantry oppression anymore. The problem is that Uldred is a very under-developped character who is simply displayed as a monster. Naturally, that reinforces the claim that "Templars are needed".

Also, about the Circle in Orzammar, is this done with Bhelen in charge? Because I can't see Harrowmont accepting it. Bhelen on the otherhand would benefit alot from mages on his side.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 janvier 2010 - 03:50 .

[DanaScu]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DanaScu wrote...

The non-possessed mages and the children locked in the tower *with* the abominations by the Templars who ran instead of fighting? They sure weren't protected. Irving and the other non-possessed mages imprisoned and tortured at the top of the tower while the righteous templars waited for reinforcements to slaughter everything in the tower weren't protected. When their reinforcements arrived, they would have gone in and killed everyone, including the children and the other non-possessed mages, which is the exact opposite of "protected", imo.

By that logic, the Grey Wardens are a dismal failiure because of Ostagar. You cannot win all battles, and sometimes you're taken by surpriuse, victim of treason or overwhelmed.
What did you expect the templars to do?
Waiting for reinforcements was the most sensible thing to do.

And don't even bring the player into this. The player is the player - he has the awesome power of save/load, difficulty changes and cheats. For all intense and purposes, he is a demi-god and the "but the PC did it and X couldn't" is not a valid argument.

Four people in the party. I don't know how many wardens were at Ostagar. But I do know there were *many* more darkspawn. How many soldiers did Loghain have? Looked like quite a few when he ordered the retreat. Without the archdemon, they could have managed another stalemate/sort of win. I also know how many abominations and demons were in the tower. Without reloading or or changing difficulty or cheats or mods or god-items, 4 non-templars killed them all. [I only wish a couple of my pcs were uber god-like; I still haven't managed to save all the villagers at Redcliffe. I would rather fight abominations than the undead at the village.]

How many Templars at the tower? And include the Queen of Antiva at the dock, please. Their whole reason for existing is to stop abominations, and the templar powers are effective against mages. There were more templars available than members of the pc's party, and they still left non-possessed mages to die. When the reinforcements and the annulment writ arrived, they would have gone in and slaughtered everyone, including the non-possessed mages and children protected by Wynne. I didn't find any dead abominations. I did find some dead templars, and dead mages. I don't think the templars actually did that much, imo. But that is my opinion only. Ymmv.

[ReubenLiew]

Thats the thing isn't it? Templars are there as a prevention, but they are useless as a cure when the entire circle revolts and decides to become abominationsville. Thats the sheer power of the mages, it takes a dozen Templars just to kill one abomination, but to have an entire Circle fall takes some serious measures.

[KnightofPhoenix]

legbamel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The templars did fight. They locked the door cause they were taken by surprise and had to stop the abominations from leaving the tower. As far as they knew, there were no survivors.
There is not a single templar at Redciffle, so I fail to see what point your trying to make here. They're not psychic to know where an abominations will appear.

What, you believe that Wynne or one of the other mages in there with the children didn't knock on that huge door and say, "Hey, there are children in here!  Help us save them!"?  They had to know that there were survivors.  They simply didn't think that they could save themselves if it turned out to be a trick.  'Course, I've cast a spell or two through a closed door myself, but I don't think those handy red circles mark people for NPCs or pretty glyphs show the AOE when casting, either. 

And the Templars were right in keeping the doors closed. There was no way of knowing that none of these mages, including the children already house a demon inside. And as Irving admits (if you save him but side with the Templars), there is no way of knowing if a mage is housing a demon or not.
The Templars' main objective is not to portect mages, but it's to protect everyone else and contain the demon threat, until they recieve the right of annulment, and they did so efficiently.
You may disagree with the whole system and argue that it led Uldred into rebelling in the first place. But you can't argue that the Templars' actions were bad when the **** hit the fan.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 janvier 2010 - 03:55 .

[Jafari]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I agree that Uldred rebelled because, as a libratarian, he couldn't bear Chantry oppression anymore. The problem is that Uldred is a very under-developped character who is simply displayed as a monster. Naturally, that reinforces the claim that "Templars are needed".

Also, about the Circle in Orzammar, is this done with Bhelen in charge? Because I can't see Harrowmont accepting it. Bhelen on the otherhand would benefit alot from mages on his side.

Like I said earlier, one man's enemy is another man's hero. What I felt from Uldred was a rebellion against the Chantry and also I got the feeling that he felt that he derserved better, that he was better than the Chantry itself, after seeing him get shot down before Ostagar.

But in regards to how he acted it was, "join me or I'll force you to my side."

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

legbamel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The templars did fight. They locked the door cause they were taken by surprise and had to stop the abominations from leaving the tower. As far as they knew, there were no survivors.
There is not a single templar at Redciffle, so I fail to see what point your trying to make here. They're not psychic to know where an abominations will appear.

What, you believe that Wynne or one of the other mages in there with the children didn't knock on that huge door and say, "Hey, there are children in here!  Help us save them!"?  They had to know that there were survivors.  They simply didn't think that they could save themselves if it turned out to be a trick.  'Course, I've cast a spell or two through a closed door myself, but I don't think those handy red circles mark people for NPCs or pretty glyphs show the AOE when casting, either. 

And the Templars were right in keeping the doors closed. There was no way of knowing that none of these mages, including the children already house a demon inside. And as Irving admits (if you save him but side with the Templars), there is no way of knowing if a mage is housing a demon or not.
The Templars' main objective is not to portect mages, but it's to protect everyone else and contain the demon threat, until they recieve the right of annulment, and they did so efficiently.
You may disagree with the whole system and argue that it led Uldred into rebelling in the first place. But you can't argue that the Templars' actions were bad when the **** hit the fan.

...and yet, Gregor will take Irving at his word.  Why is that, exactly?  Their duty is, of course, to keep the **** from hitting the fan in the first place, something they failed miserably at.  However, in their defence, I don't think that what happened to Uldred is what he expected to happen.

[ArathWoeeye]

What gives chantry the right to control the mages? Who is gonna control the chantry and templar?

That's all I ask and since I believe these questions lack good answers, I don't believe in chantry-controlled mages.

Not to mention they failed in a real crisis. Which brings us to the topic of "can you actually control anything".

[legbamel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And the Templars were right in keeping the doors closed. There was no way of knowing that none of these mages, including the children already house a demon inside. And as Irving admits (if you save him but side with the Templars), there is no way of knowing if a mage is housing a demon or not.
The Templars' main objective is not to portect mages, but it's to protect everyone else and contain the demon threat, until they recieve the right of annulment, and they did so efficiently.
You may disagree with the whole system and argue that it led Uldred into rebelling in the first place. But you can't argue that the Templars' actions were bad when the **** hit the fan.

I'm not saying they were wrong to do so.  I was just calling "BS" on a claim that they didn't know there were any survivors.  They knew, but they were in no position to do anything about it.  One would have thought that the Litany would have been standard issue for a Templar, though.  You'd think they could have prevented a lot of abominations simply by interrupting and killing the blood mages who were making them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

robertthebard wrote...
...and yet, Gregor will take Irving at his word.  Why is that, exactly?  Their duty is, of course, to keep the **** from hitting the fan in the first place, something they failed miserably at.  However, in their defence, I don't think that what happened to Uldred is what he expected to happen.

Well Irving will be sent to Chantry officials and his fate would be decided there. Plus, there is something going on betwen Gregoir and Irving, see the other thread .
Well the Templars and Circle mages were defeating Uldred, until, out of the blues, he summons demons. So they failed, but not completely (they failed to realise that Uldred had a large folllowing however). They succeeded in containing the threat though, and that's well enough.

legbamel wrote...
I'm not saying they were wrong to do so.  I was just calling "BS" on a claim that they didn't know there were any survivors.  They knew, but they were in no position to do anything about it.  One would have thought that the Litany would have been standard issue for a Templar, though.  You'd think they could have prevented a lot of abominations simply by interrupting and killing the blood mages who were making them.

You know, that's an excellent point. Why isn't the Litany standardized? Mass produced.
Didn't really think about it before. It would have saved everyone alot of trouble.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 janvier 2010 - 04:16 .

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
...and yet, Gregor will take Irving at his word.  Why is that, exactly?  Their duty is, of course, to keep the **** from hitting the fan in the first place, something they failed miserably at.  However, in their defence, I don't think that what happened to Uldred is what he expected to happen.

Well Irving will be sent to Chantry officials and his fate would be decided there. Plus, there is something going on betwen Gregoir and Irving, see the other thread .
Well the Templars and Circle mages were defeating Uldred, until, out of the blues, he summons demons. So they failed, but not completely (they failed to realise that Uldred had a large folllowing however). They succeeded in containing the threat though, and that's well enough.

legbamel wrote...
I'm not saying they were wrong to do so.  I was just calling "BS" on a claim that they didn't know there were any survivors.  They knew, but they were in no position to do anything about it.  One would have thought that the Litany would have been standard issue for a Templar, though.  You'd think they could have prevented a lot of abominations simply by interrupting and killing the blood mages who were making them.

You know, that's an excellent point. Why isn't the Litany standardized? Mass produced.
Didn't really think about it before. It would have saved everyone alot of trouble.

Maybe Zevran could help them with that.   He likes giving advice, and special concoctions.