398 réponses à ce sujet

[Jafari]

ArathWoeeye wrote...

What gives chantry the right to control the mages? Who is gonna control the chantry and templar?
That's all I ask and since I believe these questions lack good answers, I don't believe in chantry-controlled mages.
Not to mention they failed in a real crisis. Which brings us to the topic of "can you actually control anything".

Considering it was Tevinter Mages that ruined the Golden City and caused the Maker the turn away from the World. A religion that is based around The Maker is of course going to be wary around mages so they believe it is their right to keep tabs on them.

The Chantry doesn’t actually control the Circle of Magi per say, they monitor and govern it. Mages still have power to determine how the Circle works.

Modifié par Links-2-3-4, 17 janvier 2010 - 04:19 .

[Sialater]

My husband got an interesting comment from Alistair before doing the Circle quest the other night. "Locking the door and throwing away the key is supposed to be Templar Plan B."

[ArathWoeeye]

Links-2-3-4 wrote...

Considering it was Tevinter Mages that ruined the Golden City and caused the Maker the turn away from the World. A religion that is based around The Maker is of course going to be wary around mages so they believe it is their right to keep tabs on them.

The Chantry doesn’t actually control the Circle of Magi per say, they monitor and govern it. Mages still have power to determine how the Circle works.

As its mentioned a lot in the game, Chantry says many things. 
Plus, because their religion tells them that mages can be dangerous still should not give them the RIGHT to actually have any control.
What if mages think chantry to be dangerous? Do they have the right to create templar hunters and take some sort of control over the chantry? 

[Jafari]

ArathWoeeye wrote...

Links-2-3-4 wrote...

Considering it was Tevinter Mages that ruined the Golden City and caused the Maker the turn away from the World. A religion that is based around The Maker is of course going to be wary around mages so they believe it is their right to keep tabs on them.

The Chantry doesn’t actually control the Circle of Magi per say, they monitor and govern it. Mages still have power to determine how the Circle works.

As its mentioned a lot in the game, Chantry says many things. 
Plus, because their religion tells them that mages can be dangerous still should not give them the RIGHT to actually have any control.
What if mages think chantry to be dangerous? Do they have the right to create templar hunters and take some sort of control over the chantry? 

I believe the real question is not the Templars now but the The Chantry of Andraste vs. The Imperial Chantry. Since what you mention is actually how things are done in the Imperium.

And the Templar primary role is to hunt for apostates and maleficars. What is a Mage going to hunt a Templar for or decide the Chantry is dangerous? For believing in the Maker? If they did that, they are commiting sacrilege and the next thing to happen would be the destruction of anything regarding a Mage or Magic.

Modifié par Links-2-3-4, 17 janvier 2010 - 04:54 .

[wizardryforever]

The Circle in Orzammar ending occurred for me with Harrowmont in charge, which leads me to believe that it doesn't matter who is in charge, as long as the Circle is destroyed and there is no Chantry in Orzammar. I'm pretty sure that you must side with the Templars in the tower, because the whole point of relocating to Orzammar was to rebuild the Circle. If the Circle survives, I certainly don't see Gregoir or the Chantry allowing the survivors to pack up and move to Orzammar. The Circle has to have all-new members for that to happen. The only reason I sided with the Templars in that one playthrough was to see how things were different, and the only reason I didn't indulge Brother Burkel was because I was playing a Dalish, who definitely have their own beef with the Chantry. So you could say that I just stumbled across that ending by serendipity, and I'm surprised no one else has uncovered this. Makes me feel special. :-)

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Note that this was the Abomination that was Uldred creating more abominations, not recruiting more blood mages.  Also of note is that he only has to do that once, for the dramatic, dun dun dun, look what the Abomination formerly known as Uldred is doing to the mages cutscene.  Isn't it odd then, that he can then proceed to turn the remaining mages into abominations without the ritualistic, needing more abominations to help him scene after the fight begins?

What are you getting at?

Uldred had support of several Blood Mages. They started bringing deamons in and Uldred got possesed. Tearing the veil makes it easier for deamon to posses people - that's why some templars got possesed.
With the help of blood magic, Uldred & co. they possesed even more. Ever heard of a domino effect? Uldred was creating an abomination army. He didn't start when you got there, he's been doing it since the whole thing started.
And that ritual? They were trying to break the mages will so the demons cna posses them. The more weak-willed had already succumbed.

[Antigone2283]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Antigone2283 wrote...
Isolde, a non-mage, really bears responsibility for a GREAT deal of the destruction at Redcliffe:  her fear of her boy being taken away from her (and probably made Tranquil or killed outright, having already proved his "weakness" and susceptibility for being possessed) kept her from telling anyone what was happening.  The demon went unchecked for days because of fear of the Chantry's system.  Connor's complete and utter lack of proper training no doubt also played a role in his susceptibility, and that lack of trraining was, AGAIN, the result of fear of the system set up for mages.

Result of stupidity I would say.

Riiiiiiight.  Isolde just has a low IQ.  Despite her words to the contrary, the decision had nothing to do with love for her child and fear of losing him. Because that'd be crazy, right?  What mother would care about her kid that much? Pfsh.  And it's not like her fear was justified, or anything.  What was she afraid of? That they'd take her only child away from her, never let her see him again, and possibly kill him or give him a magical lobotomy? What's wrong with that?  Why would that bother her? Yeah, you got me there. What a well thought-out and reasonable argument you've presented.  I'm utterly speechless in the face of your superior reasoning ability.

I played the mage origin twice and I've not met a "cold and disdainfull" templar.

Well, go back and talk to Bran, then.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DanaScu wrote...
I also know how many abominations and demons were in the tower. Without reloading or or changing difficulty or cheats or mods or god-items, 4 non-templars killed them all. [I only wish a couple of my pcs were uber god-like; I still haven't managed to save all the villagers at Redcliffe. I would rather fight abominations than the undead at the village.]

That's because you're the player and you have to win. If Bio made that unwinnable you'd be cursing. The player is the Hero. So the challange always has to be such that he can overcome it, logic and realism be dammned.
Realisticly, a 4-man party should have been dead a billion times in half of the battles the player was involved.

Name anyone in the game who is actually competent by that criteria? Everyone apparently can't do anything in-game wihout the palyer.

There were more templars available than members of the pc's party, and they still left non-possessed mages to die. When the reinforcements and the annulment writ arrived, they would have gone in and slaughtered everyone, including the non-possessed mages and children protected by Wynne. I didn't find any dead abominations. I did find some dead templars, and dead mages. I don't think the templars actually did that much, imo. But that is my opinion only. Ymmv.

Greagoir seemd very reluctant to actually purge the tower. Who knows what he would do after the reinforcements came? Either way, the numbers of screen are not representative of anything. Or do you really think Denerim is so small, that you "army" consist of 50 soldiers and that some places seem underpopulated? IT's a game. A medium has some limitations.

[mousestalker]

After having read this thread from its beginning and having seen the title for quite a while in the forum, I'm still left with my initial thought: One of the more popular games at the Pearl has to be the 'naughty templar'.

[Antigone2283]

ReubenLiew wrote...

There is a number to the purges, ya know.
There has only been 14 purges through time.

You're kidding, right?  I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone put an "only" in front of a two-digit number describing a genocidal purge....

We ONLY killed off an entire subgroup of people 14 times!  Geez, get off our case! 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Antigone2283 wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

There is a number to the purges, ya know.
There has only been 14 purges through time.

You're kidding, right?  I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone put an "only" in front of a two-digit number describing a genocidal purge....

We ONLY killed off an entire subgroup of people 14 times!  Geez, get off our case! 

As far as we know, the right of annulment is only granted when the circle is invaded by demons.
In that case, most of the mages become abominations and / or possessed. So they are not really themselves anymore. So technically, it's a genocidal purge against demons more than anything else. Granted, some of the mages that might be innocent will be killed as well, but better be safe than sorry.

Of course, if the right of annulment is granted even to quell a normal rebellion with no blood magic involved whatsover, then that's a different story.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:31 .

[Althernai]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Proof or it didn't happen. Statistics. Something to back up that claim.

I can't give you statistics on a fictional universe; that's why I said "argument" rather than "experimental result". The sample size is two and each of these illustrates one part of the argument.

The first problem is that the Tower is a prison. A guilded prison, certainly, but a prison nonetheless (I believe the narrator of the mage origin even says as much). As a general rule, human being don't like being imprisoned -- some might get used to a sufficiently cushy one, but quite a few will not, particularly when faced with the prospect of the magical equivalent of a lobotomy. So what do you think they will do? They can't simply run away because the Templars and Circle will use blood magic to track them down, so they need an edge and, unless an ancient elven phylactery falls into their lap, the only way to get such an edge is to consort with demons and/or seek out the forbidden arts. That's how you get mages like Uldred (and to a lesser extent Jowan).

The second problem is that no matter how much propaganda an organization produces to demonize a group of people, human beings are simply not predisposed towards giving up their children to a group of people who will permanently imprison them. Isolde can't be the only mother who thought "What if he learns just enough to hide that he is a mage?", she just had the resources to carry this idea further than most. This is a recipe for disaster, but you can't expect parents to refrain from protecting their children.

The Mages Collective is not proof. TI's a far smaller organizations and it's no monitored, so even if abominations DO happen, it's not like you're gonna know.

Wasn't the propaganda behind the need to imprison mages and make them go through the Harrowing that even a single abomination can level a village or something of the sort? If abominations happened, you'd know -- unless of course the mages were good enough at dealing with them without assistance (which is quite possible since the anti-magic abilities of the Templars aren't actually as good as those of the mages).

I'm also not entirely convinced that the Mages Collective is that much smaller -- the Circle wasn't very big to begin with.

The templars did fight. They locked the door cause they were taken by surprise and had to stop the abominations from leaving the tower. As far as they knew, there were no survivors.

I'm not entirely certain of this, but I believe there is actually nothing hostile between the locked door and Wynne's barrier. So the grand total of what they actually accomplished is lock in some children, apprentices and Wynne -- it wasn't they who stopped the abominations from leaving.

There is not a single templar at Redciffle, so I fail to see what point your trying to make here.

That the Templars of Ferelden are rather shy about actually dealing with abominations...

[ReubenLiew]

Antigone2283 wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

There is a number to the purges, ya know.
There has only been 14 purges through time.

You're kidding, right?  I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone put an "only" in front of a two-digit number describing a genocidal purge....

We ONLY killed off an entire subgroup of people 14 times!  Geez, get off our case! 

:rollseyes:
In camparison to the person I was answering to which said it might be an annual thing, yes it's only 14 in comparison, so go suck on your mage staff or something, I'll call it whatever I like on a fictional people.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Note that this was the Abomination that was Uldred creating more abominations, not recruiting more blood mages.  Also of note is that he only has to do that once, for the dramatic, dun dun dun, look what the Abomination formerly known as Uldred is doing to the mages cutscene.  Isn't it odd then, that he can then proceed to turn the remaining mages into abominations without the ritualistic, needing more abominations to help him scene after the fight begins?

What are you getting at?

Uldred had support of several Blood Mages. They started bringing deamons in and Uldred got possesed. Tearing the veil makes it easier for deamon to posses people - that's why some templars got possesed.
With the help of blood magic, Uldred & co. they possesed even more. Ever heard of a domino effect? Uldred was creating an abomination army. He didn't start when you got there, he's been doing it since the whole thing started.
And that ritual? They were trying to break the mages will so the demons cna posses them. The more weak-willed had already succumbed.

I guess the question here is really, what are you playing at?  You pulled this response out of context to quote it, so you could change directions on your position?  You do realize that this was a response to you talking about how many Blood Mages, and now it's like you're going "oops, yeah, that's right, now how do I make myself look less silly".  This wasn't the way.  Uldred's plan backfired on him, resulting in his possession, that's not what he had in mind, I assure you.  The Abomination formerly known as Uldred, as well as dialog with Niall makes this abundantly clear.

[Antigone2283]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Antigone2283 wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

There is a number to the purges, ya know.
There has only been 14 purges through time.

You're kidding, right?  I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone put an "only" in front of a two-digit number describing a genocidal purge....

We ONLY killed off an entire subgroup of people 14 times!  Geez, get off our case! 

:rollseyes:
In camparison to the person I was answering to which said it might be an annual thing, yes it's only 14 in comparison, so go suck on your mage staff or something, I'll call it whatever I like on a fictional people.

And actually, it's 17 times in 700 years, according to the Codex....which averages out to about once every 40 years.  Which is a lot. 

You're a charming individual. I bet you have a lot of friends.  That whole eye-rolling thing is very popular in junior high, I hear.

[ReubenLiew]

Considering that you were the one that came off as crass in the first place while I just pointed out a simple number, I'm sure YOU have a lot of friends.
I'm not impressed.
Also loving how you make an assumption and attack someone based on their age. Veerrrry classy. I like you, You can come over and have tea with my sister anytime.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:55 .

[Antigone2283]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Antigone2283 wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

There is a number to the purges, ya know.
There has only been 14 purges through time.

You're kidding, right?  I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone put an "only" in front of a two-digit number describing a genocidal purge....

We ONLY killed off an entire subgroup of people 14 times!  Geez, get off our case! 

As far as we know, the right of annulment is only granted when the circle is invaded by demons.
In that case, most of the mages become abominations and / or possessed. So they are not really themselves anymore. So technically, it's a genocidal purge against demons more than anything else. Granted, some of the mages that might be innocent will be killed as well, but better be safe than sorry.

Of course, if the right of annulment is granted even to quell a normal rebellion with no blood magic involved whatsover, then that's a different story.

The only instance we have to go on is the one we're given in the game - it's impossible to say whether or not any previous purges were "justified" (although I still have a REALLY difficult time trusting the Chantry to make any kind of decision about which situation is justifiable and which isn't) What we do know is that, had the Warden not shown up, Gregoir gives no indication that he would NOT have used Annulment.  And since we know that the Circle is in fact SAVEABLE in this instance...well, that just doesn't look very good.  Like I said, we have nothing to go on for why any of the previous purges took place, but I think I'm justified in being a little suspicious.  Especially since, as stated in a previous post, the number of times the Circle has been purged averages out to about once every 40 years.  Yikes.  That also kind of suggests that their system isn't really working - either the mages are crazy ready to go evil as an entire group, or they're being driven towards it...That's my conspiracy theory, and I'm sticking to it!  

[KnightofPhoenix]

Antigone2283 wrote...
The only instance we have to go on is the one we're given in the game - it's impossible to say whether or not any previous purges were "justified" (although I still have a REALLY difficult time trusting the Chantry to make any kind of decision about which situation is justifiable and which isn't) What we do know is that, had the Warden not shown up, Gregoir gives no indication that he would NOT have used Annulment.  And since we know that the Circle is in fact SAVEABLE in this instance...well, that just doesn't look very good.  Like I said, we have nothing to go on for why any of the previous purges took place, but I think I'm justified in being a little suspicious.  Especially since, as stated in a previous post, the number of times the Circle has been purged averages out to about once every 40 years.  Yikes.  That also kind of suggests that their system isn't really working - either the mages are crazy ready to go evil as an entire group, or they're being driven towards it...That's my conspiracy theory, and I'm sticking to it!  

We know it's saveable from meta-gaming. My HN purged the Circle because he couldn't know it's saveable. and like I said before, even Irving says that we can't know whether a mage is possessed or not. Of course I am not saying that saving the circle is a stupid decision. But from my PC's point of view, it was too dangerous.

But yes I would be suspicious as well. In theory, the right of annulment is used only when necessary. Theory and practise rarely overlap perfectly.
And keep in mind that it's 17 purges accros Thedas and not only in Ferelden. which doesn't sound that bad.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:58 .

[Antigone2283]

ReubenLiew wrote...

I'm not impressed.

I'm heart broken, really.   But I'm also pretty sure I pointed out that you suggested 14 genocidal purges is an "only" kind of number, and then you rolled your eyes and told me to go suck on a phallus shaped object.  I'm not really sure how that makes me the crass one, but I'll take your word for it. 

I'm also pretty certain that no one wants to hear us b**** and moan at each other, so I'm going to politely decline your invitation for tea, and get back to the discussion at hand.

[ReubenLiew]

Only in comparison to an annual purge.

If you honestly cannot see how impossibly stuck up your post in reply to mine is, then honestly, I could care less about how you feel about what how I replied to yours.

[Antigone2283]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Antigone2283 wrote...
The only instance we have to go on is the one we're given in the game - it's impossible to say whether or not any previous purges were "justified" (although I still have a REALLY difficult time trusting the Chantry to make any kind of decision about which situation is justifiable and which isn't) What we do know is that, had the Warden not shown up, Gregoir gives no indication that he would NOT have used Annulment.  And since we know that the Circle is in fact SAVEABLE in this instance...well, that just doesn't look very good.  Like I said, we have nothing to go on for why any of the previous purges took place, but I think I'm justified in being a little suspicious.  Especially since, as stated in a previous post, the number of times the Circle has been purged averages out to about once every 40 years.  Yikes.  That also kind of suggests that their system isn't really working - either the mages are crazy ready to go evil as an entire group, or they're being driven towards it...That's my conspiracy theory, and I'm sticking to it!  

We know it's saveable from meta-gaming. My HN purged the Circle because he couldn't know it's saveable. and like I said before, even Irving says that we can't know whether a mage is possessed or not. Of course I am not saying that saving the circle is a stupid decision. But from my PC's point of view, it was too dangerous.

But yes I would be suspicious as well. In theory, the right of annulment is used only when necessary. Theory and practise rarely overlap perfectly.
And keep in mind that it's 17 purges accros Thedas and not only in Ferelden. which doesn't sound that bad.  

Unless you're the group consistently being targeted for a purge, in which case, it sounds pretty bad to me.  It sounds pretty bad to me, regardless, but I'm a bit of a romantic idealist: I'd rather take the risk in the hopes that more can be saved (of course believing that I can save more )  But then, I spoke for Harromont, too, and look how that turned out...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Antigone2283 wrote...
Unless you're the group consistently being targeted for a purge, in which case, it sounds pretty bad to me.  It sounds pretty bad to me, regardless, but I'm a bit of a romantic idealist: I'd rather take the risk in the hopes that more can be saved (of course believing that I can save more )  But then, I spoke for Harromont, too, and look how that turned out...

Of course if I was a mage, I wouldn't like this at all.
I love the Harrowmont / Bhelen thing that Bioware pulled off. Suits my realism perfectly

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 janvier 2010 - 06:26 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Antigone2283 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Result of stupidity I would say.

Riiiiiiight.  Isolde just has a low IQ.  Despite her words to the contrary, the decision had nothing to do with love for her child and fear of losing him. Because that'd be crazy, right?  What mother would care about her kid that much? Pfsh.  And it's not like her fear was justified, or anything.  What was she afraid of? That they'd take her only child away from her, never let her see him again, and possibly kill him or give him a magical lobotomy? What's wrong with that?  Why would that bother her? Yeah, you got me there. What a well thought-out and reasonable argument you've presented.  I'm utterly speechless in the face of your superior reasoning ability

Stupidity yes. She let her fear run rampant. Loosing him? Yes, cause him being raised in a circle is such a horrifying prospect compared to what happened. She acted out of stupid fear.
The Circle MAY make him tranquil (that's a big if, only if he shows lack of willpower or dabbles in blood magic), but they certanly won't just outright kill him - not unless he gets possesed.


Either of it is prefferabel to deaths of thousands by a rampart abominations, loosing him compltely because a demon took over completely. And he may stil lend up killed in a dozen different ways.
So yes. Stupid.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
I guess the question here is really, what are you playing at?  You pulled this response out of context to quote it, so you could change directions on your position?  You do realize that this was a response to you talking about how many Blood Mages, and now it's like you're going "oops, yeah, that's right, now how do I make myself look less silly".  This wasn't the way.  Uldred's plan backfired on him, resulting in his possession, that's not what he had in mind, I assure you.  The Abomination formerly known as Uldred, as well as dialog with Niall makes this abundantly clear.

I have no idea where you're going with this. Apples and oranges. What point are you trying to make?

My point is that not all of the abominations you ran across in the tower were followers of Uldred. He and his cronies used blood magic to turn people against eachother. He himself got possesed and turned unwilling mages into abominations.

[Lord Phoebus]

One might also point out that if all the mages weren't concentrated in one location, then Uldred wouldn't have had any mages to turn into abominations. A good deal of the reason why things got so out of hand with Uldred is that the mages didn't have any room to run. One might also point out that there must be some serious cases of cabin fever in that tower and I can't imagine any of them being all that sane after spending their lives in an environment with no privacy or personal space under armed guard, with Tranquil walking around as a constant reminder to them of what will happen to them if they mess up. I'm pretty surprised they don't have mages wigging out and trying to kill everyone every couple of months, the suicide rate in that place must be phenomenal.