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[sveners]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I think it's a total cop out and I can't help but roll my eyes.

That's fair enough Even though I don't really see the cop out.. Mass Effect ended like most BioWare games up to that point. With the hero standing tall. 

Gixxer6Rdr wrote...

Movies do this all the time... the breath shows he's alive at that point obviously, and since they do not show/tell of him dying after that, it's safe to assume he lives under those circumstances. Of course you could argue, but that's an opinion, being as how we see and hear him breathe. 

Often it's a bad-guy that does that type of 'reveal' in films, but it works for the hero too.

I don't want to go into a long rant about games are not movies, but out of curiosity; Which films have ended with the hero in a similar situation?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

sveners wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I think it's a total cop out and I can't help but roll my eyes.

That's fair enough Even though I don't really see the cop out.. Mass Effect ended like most BioWare games up to that point. With the hero standing tall. 

Which is how one of ME3's endings should have been.

Standing tall in victory.

[Ticonderoga117]

Mangalores wrote...

Stories are not about you being happy but being brought on a journey and be satisfied at their conclusion. Good storywriting makes you throw a book that kills a character into the corner but at the same time feel content that this character completed his arc the way it had to happen. That you know that their actions are so in tune with their character that you cannot let them survive without you essentially subverting them to be something else than what they are.

I'm of the opinion that stories should evoke emotions and they don't always have to be happy ones.  They just have to be satisfying. I wasn't happy about Tom Hank's character dieing in Saving Private Ryan but it would have diminished the character to go through all that and just walk away.


These breathe scenes are just a cheap cop out after someone tried to elicit precisely that emotion from you. It makes the end of a character's arc less meaningful. Either let a hero live or make him die but don't make him die to miraculously survive after the ending credits. It just means you as the stoywriter weren't earnest about this character's sacrifice.

To address this first part, I felt like throwing the disc because I felt rage. This was not how I felt Shepard's story should end. See ME2's ending, but bigger and more variety, for how the story should've ended. I see no good story telling what-so-ever in ME3's ending.

Yes, stories should evoke emotion, but again, in the original cut, I felt nothing but numbness. However, I'm ok with "miraculous" survival, as long as it's within reason. ME3's take is the cop out, and a bad one.

[o Ventus]

In which is Shepard "standing tall"?

[sveners]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

sveners wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I think it's a total cop out and I can't help but roll my eyes.

That's fair enough Even though I don't really see the cop out.. Mass Effect ended like most BioWare games up to that point. With the hero standing tall. 

Which is how one of ME3's endings should have been.

Standing tall in victory.

AH! Understood. Could not agree more.

[Gixxer6Rdr]

No need to go into a rant, I think the planet is aware games are not movies. But ways to tell a story across different mediums are pretty much universal. And as I said, usually in 'films' it's the villain taking the breath to let us know they're alive and well for the sequal, and I've seen many of those. I'm not making a list, cant think of one off the top of my head where it's specifically a last breath. I think everyone has seen that old shtick a few times at least... I don't argue for the sake of arguing.

Believe what you'd like, and be happy with it. But we've all seen films where there's some little hint so-and-so isn't dead. Friday the 13th series, Nightmare On Elm Street series... Even The Hobbit ended with Smaug rolling over and opening his eye... same type of 'reveal' as we're discussing here.

[sveners]

Gixxer6Rdr wrote...

No need to go into a rant, I think the planet is aware games are not movies. But ways to tell a story across different mediums are pretty much universal. And as I said, usually in 'films' it's the villain taking the breath to let us know they're alive and well for the sequal, and I've seen many of those. I'm not making a list, cant think of one off the top of my head where it's specifically a last breath. I think everyone has seen that old shtick a few times at least... I don't argue for the sake of arguing.

Believe what you'd like, and be happy with it. But we've all seen films where there's some little hint so-and-so isn't dead. Friday the 13th series, Nightmare On Elm Street series... Even The Hobbit ended with Smaug rolling over and opening his eye... same type of 'reveal' as we're discussing here.

Sure, I can accept that. And yes you are right. Stories are quite universal in the ways they're told.

My problem is that you're throwing Shepard in amongst villains. 

The reason they received "an ending breath" would be the chance to use them in future sequels. There will be none for Shepard. That story is done. So why just an ending breath, for the one single end where it's possible to get?

[Gixxer6Rdr]

Also... many people are of the opinion games are starting to be much more cinematic to catch wider audiences, and ME3 had a lot more auto-dialogue. Much more "movie-like" than many other games. Soon the games aren't movies thing will have much less oomph when game-makers are making games that are played out much like films with player-input. I've seen posts where people have said ME3 had so much auto-dialogue they felt they were mainly watching a lot of it as if it were a movie.

But now we're veering off topic.

Edit:: I clearly said this is often used for the villain but works for "the Hero...," I don't think I'm throwing Shepard in with villains in any way, shape, or form. That's simply how you took it, which was a mistake.

Modifié par Gixxer6Rdr, 27 avril 2013 - 11:23 .

[sveners]

Gixxer6Rdr wrote...

Also... many people are of the opinion games are starting to be much more cinematic to catch wider audiences, and ME3 had a lot more auto-dialogue. Much more "movie-like" than many other games. Soon the games aren't movies thing will have much less oomph when game-makers are making games that are played out much like films with player-input. I've seen posts where people have said ME3 had so much auto-dialogue they felt they were mainly watching a lot of it as if it were a movie.

But now we're veering off topic.

Edit:: I clearly said this is often used for the villain but works for "the Hero...," I don't think I'm throwing Shepard in with villains in any way, shape, or form. That's simply how you took it, which was a mistake.

Unfortunately (in my opinion)  I've noticed the same thing. 

Someone on this very forum advocated the change. Applauded BioWare for going from PC (player character) to simply a protagonist. I found that very depressing. 

Yes, you clearly stated it is often used for the villain. I have just never seen it work, or even used, for "the Hero". 
To use movie analogies. Did Spider Man 3 end with Peter Parker drawing breath? Will Tony Stark end up with his breath after Iron Man 3? I cannot think of any example, in any fictional media, where the hero ends his journey by "drawing breath" then cut to black. Maybe it's just me not having seen/read enough. I would enjoy the enlightenment though

No real need to answer though. If you're happy with what you got, then who am I to crap all over that. I've done that before with unpleasant results ^^

[Iakus]

o Ventus wrote...

In which is Shepard "standing tall"?

MEHEM

[Remix-General Aetius]

mehem sucks. model swapping (extremely amateur move, lol they swap the LI at the memorial wall with the ravaged Shepard model, as if he wouldn't even have cleaned up days later), bad voice overs and terribly long blank screens. it sucks.

Modifié par TheGarden2010, 28 avril 2013 - 12:12 .

[HiddenInWar]

ATiBotka wrote...

tickle267 wrote...

it would be pretty pointless to have a scene showing that shepard survived only for him/her to die right after.

This.

[AresKeith]

TheGarden2010 wrote...

mehem sucks. model swapping (extremely amateur move), bad voice overs and terribly long blank screens. it sucks.

So in other words, "My opinion is right, yours is wrong so STFU"?

[Clayless]

"Alive" is vastly different from "survives".

[Jon The Wizard]

I say after the breath scene, it's up to headcannon.

I prefer to think that Shepard survives that scene but is confined to a wheelchair for the rest of his life on the grounds that his legs are completely powderized due to the fall.

[FluffyCannibal]

sveners wrote...

So, out of "7" endings, 3 high ems. refuse and 3 low ems, there is one where Shepard is shown to take a breath. Expanding on that single scene would have insulted your desire to leave the rest to your imagination? If you wanted Shepard to die, then just don't gather all ems you can. He/She'll die in all of them.

Why would you want that scene unless you wanted Shepard to live?

Oh, and ME ended wonderfully.

I don't want Shepard to die. I make sure I have high EMS just to get that scene because its awesome. What I mean is, I prefer having a scene like this where its pretty much left up to your own imagination / head canon than having Shepard jump out of the rubble ME 1 style, or being carried out to hospital, etc.. To be honest, I think that if there was a full survival scene we'd all be in here arguing and complaining about it anyway, besides the question of exactly how they could set a scene like that up. The blast was too big for Shepard to walk out, fans would argue that if it can destroy mass relays then it can incapacitate Shepard. If you set it in the hospital, you're either looking at something like what was mentioned above, where you see Shepard in bed, breathing, but that provides no more real clarity than what we've already got. If its Shepard a few months/weeks later on the road to recovery, its gonna come across as weird... "*Five Weeks Later* *Shepard sits up in hospital bed. Hackett appears and smiles at them.* The End." There would be no 'right' scene.

I like the mystery of it. And, for the record, my Shepard retires, makes / adopts lots of babies with Kaidan / Liara and eventually dies in a nasty accident involving a guitar, a chicken, a whip, a bulldozer and 10 gallons of lubricant. Except that one Shepard who got pregnant after the one night stand with Javik and lived unhappily ever after with him by her side

(Yes, I know I'm crazy)

[Metallica93]

^ There are actually 9 endings total. However, there are many, many different types of stills afterward depending on your actions throughout the trilogy.

Also, Shepard is dead. I chose the high EMS "Destroy" ending in my first playthrough. The Catalyst even said I'd die because of my being partly synthetic. That was just BioWare's way of saying "If we can squeeze more money out of you in the near future, we will."

Modifié par Metallica93, 28 avril 2013 - 01:36 .

[N7PT]

Reorte wrote...

So, as has been repeated many times, why not show something a bit more concrete and satifying than a breath? Also, anything in the game has to be supported by what's shown in the game - external interviews, filenames, datamining doesn't cut it.

Personally I take the view that it is supposed to be Shepard alive and saying that he goes on to live but just find it a really, really hopeless and unsatisfying way of demonstrating it.

A bit of concrete can be seen in that scene. A lot of it actually.

[adayaday]

A very satisfying way to show that the hero of the trilogy is alive in the end.

[OdanUrr]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

so i was going through the mass effect folder and found this. yep shep is alive! period!


so what others believing that shepard died at the end of destroy is complete BS. and if you believe shepard died at the end of destroy its just your head canon. and not writers canon, coz in writers canon at the end of destroy shep lives.

so in destroy ending shepard lives! and thats what the writers wrote period.

'cause nobody looked into the names of the .bik movies ages ago.<_<

[AlexMBrennan]

it would be pretty pointless to have a scene showing that shepard survived only for him/her to die right after.

It would also be pretty pointless to kill Shepard only to resurrect him immediately afterwards without any character development whatsoever; just because it's pointless doesn't mean it can't be canon

[adayaday]

TheGarden2010 wrote...

mehem sucks. model swapping (extremely amateur move, lol they swap the LI at the memorial wall with the ravaged Shepard model, as if he wouldn't even have cleaned up days later), bad voice overs and terribly long blank screens. it sucks.

You do know that MEHEM was created by amateurs with very limited tools,no budget and no access to the voice actors right?

[OdanUrr]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

it would be pretty pointless to have a scene showing that shepard survived only for him/her to die right after.

It would also be pretty pointless to kill Shepard only to resurrect him immediately afterwards without any character development whatsoever; just because it's pointless doesn't mean it can't be canon

Touché.

[o Ventus]

Robosexual wrote...

"Alive" is vastly different from "survives".

Errm, no, they aren't.

If one survives, then they are indeed alive. I can't recall a single point in all of recorded history where someone "survived" but wasn't alive.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It was Hudson's intent that Shepard survived High EMS Destroy. It was fine and pretty clear Shepard survived High EMS Destroy... until San Diego Comicon last year when Chris Hepler opened his mouth and said "it could have been his last breath"... and other BW people piled on.

I'm going with Hudson's intent.

Added: Walters wanted to make sure he did not have to write Shepard in any future MEU games which was why it was left like it was.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 28 avril 2013 - 04:02 .