161 réponses à ce sujet

[Zazzerka]

o Ventus wrote...

If one survives, then they are indeed alive. I can't recall a single point in all of recorded history where someone "survived" but wasn't alive.

WALL-E

Modifié par Zazzerka, 28 avril 2013 - 04:03 .

[Iakus]

o Ventus wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

"Alive" is vastly different from "survives".

Errm, no, they aren't.

If one survives, then they are indeed alive. I can't recall a single point in all of recorded history where someone "survived" but wasn't alive.

The question isn't "survive" without being alive.  It's being alive without "surviving"

Just because Shepard is alive at that particular moment doesn't mean staying that way isn't...problematic.

And yes, there are plenty of stories out there which like to taunt the readers/viewers with  "the-hero-lives-but-is-still-screwed-long-term" endings. 

[dreamgazer]

Are we still discussing whether the most difficult thing to obtain in ME3's ending is actually a glimpse at Shepard's dying breath?

[Artifex_Imperius]

OdanUrr wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

it would be pretty pointless to have a scene showing that shepard survived only for him/her to die right after.

It would also be pretty pointless to kill Shepard only to resurrect him immediately afterwards without any character development whatsoever; just because it's pointless doesn't mean it can't be canon

Touché.

yeah and everybody is the writer. uhh nope! ... the label says "ALIVE", writer wrote Alive and NOT Last Breath. you can twist that in your own head canon. but yeah GAME CANON DICTATES SHEPARD is "ALIVE".

So yeah if your choose destroy high ems "shepard lives"

but if you chose synthesis or control or refuse shepard dies! end of story. period.

[christrek1982]

Reorte wrote...

So, as has been repeated many times, why not show something a bit more concrete and satifying than a breath? Also, anything in the game has to be supported by what's shown in the game - external interviews, filenames, datamining doesn't cut it.

Personally I take the view that it is supposed to be Shepard alive and saying that he goes on to live but just find it a really, really hopeless and unsatisfying way of demonstrating it.

I agree that was one of my issues and one of the reasons why I installed MEHEM it shows somthing and show that shepard is alive. I did have other reasons for installing it as well however.  Little things can happen off screen but a big thing like shepard living needs to be shown or at least more needs to be shown.

[christrek1982]

Mangalores wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
...

How would I be happy when Shepard committed suicide?

And generally breath scenes like that are... more complete. As in, they actually show the character is alive and gets out of the rubble. Or like this for sequels. However, since niether will happen, it's a complete slap in the face and a big "FU".

Stories are not about you being happy but being brought on a journey and be satisfied at their conclusion. Good storywriting makes you throw a book that kills a character into the corner but at the same time feel content that this character completed his arc the way it had to happen. That you know that their actions are so in tune with their character that you cannot let them survive without you essentially subverting them to be something else than what they are.

I'm of the opinion that stories should evoke emotions and they don't always have to be happy ones.  They just have to be satisfying. I wasn't happy about Tom Hank's character dieing in Saving Private Ryan but it would have diminished the character to go through all that and just walk away.


These breathe scenes are just a cheap cop out after someone tried to elicit precisely that emotion from you. It makes the end of a character's arc less meaningful. Either let a hero live or make him die but don't make him die to miraculously survive after the ending credits. It just means you as the stoywriter weren't earnest about this character's sacrifice.

why how is staying alive a bad thing? how dose living in any way lessen what someone has done or that person?

Modifié par christrek1982, 28 avril 2013 - 08:17 .

[JDee3]

Bioware said something where they wanted to make it seem like he may possibly be dead.. they really don't know. It basically just leaves for room for if they need him again in a post ME3 game if that ever happens.. they may be pulling a Bungie and planning to sell ME to a new company that will bring him back (I doubt it)

[christrek1982]

FluffyCannibal wrote...

Reorte wrote...

So, as has been repeated many times, why not show something a bit more concrete and satifying than a breath? Also, anything in the game has to be supported by what's shown in the game - external interviews, filenames, datamining doesn't cut it.

Personally I take the view that it is supposed to be Shepard alive and saying that he goes on to live but just find it a really, really hopeless and unsatisfying way of demonstrating it.

Because there are people like you who would prefer a "happily ever after" scene, and there are people like me who are more content leaving it up to the imagination. Shepard recovering and marching off to fight another day would have been too much for me, its kinda like my views on Synthesis; its all butterflies and rainbows and unicorns and I just don't buy it. And its already been done - remember how ME1 ended? And it would look too much like BW setting ME3 up for a straight sequel.

In short, head canon.

ME1 had a good ending there was no retake ME1 movments.

[Reorte]

FluffyCannibal wrote...

Reorte wrote...

So, as has been repeated many times, why not show something a bit more concrete and satifying than a breath? Also, anything in the game has to be supported by what's shown in the game - external interviews, filenames, datamining doesn't cut it.

Personally I take the view that it is supposed to be Shepard alive and saying that he goes on to live but just find it a really, really hopeless and unsatisfying way of demonstrating it.

Because there are people like you who would prefer a "happily ever after" scene, and there are people like me who are more content leaving it up to the imagination. Shepard recovering and marching off to fight another day would have been too much for me, its kinda like my views on Synthesis; its all butterflies and rainbows and unicorns and I just don't buy it. And its already been done - remember how ME1 ended? And it would look too much like BW setting ME3 up for a straight sequel.

In short, head canon.

It wouldn't look like setting up for a straight sequel because it doesn't happen in all endings. And because it doesn't happen in all endings your point is invalid anyway - why only one that's ambiguous about Shepard (the hardest to get too) and the rest that are clearly dead?

Don't see how there's anything wrong with repeating something that worked - there's certainly a lot wrong though with being different merely for the sake of it. And it doesn't have to look massively heroic ME1-style either. MEHEM's version, for example, has a completely different tone. What I don't buy is one person's life being so important that victory can only be achieved with it being taken. Live and win or die and lose, die and win is just cheap playing with emotion to me that is all but impossible to pull off convincingly, as well as looking very annoyingly messiahnistic.

I'm not sure why leaving something that important unknown is a good thing, but then I don't let authors off with "go headcanon it". What my imagination might come up with is just something that I think might happen, which may or may not be what does happen. I don't know, all I can go on is an estimate of probabilities based on what I do know. Trying to shove the player into the role of the author at the last second is a bad move. For the player imagination just tells you what might happen, not what does.

Modifié par Reorte, 28 avril 2013 - 09:57 .

[Yestare7]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It was Hudson's intent that Shepard survived High EMS Destroy. It was fine and pretty clear Shepard survived High EMS Destroy... until San Diego Comicon last year when Chris Hepler opened his mouth and said "it could have been his last breath"... and other BW people piled on.

The above are facts. 
The file says alive.
She lives, fact.  This thread can be closed.


...and if you want more proof, here is Karli Shepard, 12 months after she destroyed the Reapers:

Modifié par Yestare7, 28 avril 2013 - 10:05 .

[Clayless]

o Ventus wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

"Alive" is vastly different from "survives".

Errm, no, they aren't.

If one survives, then they are indeed alive. I can't recall a single point in all of recorded history where someone "survived" but wasn't alive.

If someone survives they're alive yes.

If someones alive it doesn't mean they survived.

As you can see that's not titled survived, it's titled alive, which is vastly different from survived. Your point would only work if it was titled survived rather than alive.

Gosh that was an awkward sentence.

Modifié par Robosexual, 28 avril 2013 - 10:28 .

[S.A.K]

That scene just shows Shepard *might* survive. Rest is up to your head canon. In mine, he did survive.

[Mangalores]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

...

To address this first part, I felt like throwing the disc because I felt rage. This was not how I felt Shepard's story should end. See ME2's ending, but bigger and more variety, for how the story should've ended. I see no good story telling what-so-ever in ME3's ending.

Yes, stories should evoke emotion, but again, in the original cut, I felt nothing but numbness. However, I'm ok with "miraculous" survival, as long as it's within reason. ME3's take is the cop out, and a bad one.

Granted. I'm also not defending the ME3 ending at all. You obviously shouldn't throw the disc because the story is bad, My point is that you can tell stories where the main character dies and it is what you feel must happen, regardless of how unhappy you are about the fact that there won't be more stories about him.

christrek1982 wrote...

why how is staying alive a bad thing? how dose living in any way lessen what someone has done or that person?

Logical consistency of the story. If it is inconceivable that the character would survive if he stands by his principles he shouldn't get saved just because. If you as a storywriter don't want to kill him, write an ending where he can conceivably win and escape death while standing by his principles. If the story is "sacrifice", you have to tell the story so people see the necessity for "sacrifice" and accept it.

León, Sky Crawlers, Butterfly Effect, in all these movies the hero makes a sacrifice and it's not a happy happy ending, but it feels like a true one.


My main point is however: If the ending were any good, in my eyes it wouldn't matter to people if Shepard lived or died. They might have wanted Shepard to live but the story sold his death in a way that you'd find it a fitting way for his character arc to end.

PS: If the ending were good I would also accept the whole "artistic integrity" argument and say "Yeah, let BW kill Shepard. It's what a hero gotta do" With the kind of ending we got I also say "Well a totally expected standard happy ending would have been preferable to what we got".

Modifié par Mangalores, 28 avril 2013 - 11:33 .

[008Zulu]

Trapped on the Citadel. Internal bleeding, no food, no medical, no communicator. With the Keepers wandering around, long term survival is not what you'd call a long term objective. That and no ending has been declared canon. Also, Bioware has stated that in order to move "Mass Effect" forward for ME4, Shepard has to die.

So "Destroy" seems to be the most painful and horrific way for Shepard to die.

[Mangalores]

008Zulu wrote...

...

So "Destroy" seems to be the most painful and horrific way for Shepard to die.

And the most true to his character as a soldier. Why should he be better off than all the other guys and gals that got shot?

[Yestare7]

008Zulu wrote...



So "Destroy" seems to be the most painful and horrific way for Shepard to die.

That's your opinion. Mine is different.

[Bizinha]

this is one of the worst things in the end for me. Could have the colors, but hey I did everything right for my Shepard does not die like this.
I much prefer the end of MEHEM, since it is the last game with shepard nothing fairer.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mangalores wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

...

So "Destroy" seems to be the most painful and horrific way for Shepard to die.

And the most true to his character as a soldier. Why should he be better off than all the other guys and gals that got shot?

Because my Shepard is above them. They're the nameless grunts. He's the guy who won the galaxy's future. 

My Shepard isn't necessarily humble. He doesn't flaunt his abilities at every opportunity, but at the same time, he knows he's extraordinary and different. He knows an ordinary person could never have done what he did. He doesn't think it makes him better than anyone else, but he knows he's one of the exceptional few. The most exceptional in fact. In his views, only Miranda is on his level.

That's why my Shepard is up and moving with no permanent damage within 6-7 months. 

Also, with the medical treatments available, just about any physical treatment could be treated and healed completely short of death. And in Shepard's case, that too was fixed.

[Samtheman63]

it's blatantly obvious that scene is there to imply shepard lives.

you don't show the hero of a game/film/whatever that is thought to be dead or seriously injured after defeating his enemies to imply he is about to die

[OdanUrr]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

yeah and everybody is the writer. uhh nope! ... the label says "ALIVE", writer wrote Alive and NOT Last Breath. you can twist that in your own head canon. but yeah GAME CANON DICTATES SHEPARD is "ALIVE".

So yeah if your choose destroy high ems "shepard lives"

but if you chose synthesis or control or refuse shepard dies! end of story. period.

Look, if you want your Shepard to be alive that's fine. I don't see why you need to create a thread saying Shepard's 100% alive and that everyone else who thinks differently is living in fantasy land.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

OdanUrr wrote...

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

yeah and everybody is the writer. uhh nope! ... the label says "ALIVE", writer wrote Alive and NOT Last Breath. you can twist that in your own head canon. but yeah GAME CANON DICTATES SHEPARD is "ALIVE".

So yeah if your choose destroy high ems "shepard lives"

but if you chose synthesis or control or refuse shepard dies! end of story. period.

Look, if you want your Shepard to be alive that's fine. I don't see why you need to create a thread saying Shepard's 100% alive and that everyone else who thinks differently is living in fantasy land.

Well in all honesty, if you choose High EMS Destroy, Shepard is indeed alive. I don't like the execution at all, but it's there. The file even mentions it.

[Wayning_Star]

Ask the star gazer. They'll tell you.

[Mangalores]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

...

So "Destroy" seems to be the most painful and horrific way for Shepard to die.

And the most true to his character as a soldier. Why should he be better off than all the other guys and gals that got shot?

Because my Shepard is above them. They're the nameless grunts. He's the guy who won the galaxy's future. 
...

Since when do bullets care? It doesn't break your character at all if he gets offed by defeating a galactic threat. And Shepard plainly has no special abilities beyond unsurmountable luck.
I don't get that obsession. You can certainly head rpg that end due to the ending but it adds nothing.

[Metallica93]

adayaday wrote...

A very satisfying way to show that the hero of the trilogy is alive in the end.

Give me one good reason how that was "satisfying." One of the most illogical scenes in the entire game even if it was "his final breath." What a load of crap...

As stupid as the Catalyst's logic was, it didn't lie up until it said "Oh yea, choosing "Destroy" will kill you, as well." Shepard died on the Citadel. Period.