161 réponses à ce sujet

[George Costanza]

I don't get why there's even an argument about whether Shepard is alive or not in destroy. If he's dead there's no reason to even show us the breath. There's no reason for any doubt. There's no reason for the hesitation at the memorial wall. None of that makes any sense.

We see all that to cast the seeds of hope that Shepard has made it through, and then the final scene confirms our hopes that he's alive.

Still. There wouldn't be an issue if he hadn't walked face first into an explosion for absolutely reason.

[Armass81]

That picture...
The LI not puttuing your plaque on the wall...
Shepards breath...

Do you need it spelled out for you really? This is not enough?

[DistantUtopia]

Mangalores wrote...
...(snip)
My main point is however: If the ending were any good, in my eyes it wouldn't matter to people if Shepard lived or died. They might have wanted Shepard to live but the story sold his death in a way that you'd find it a fitting way for his character arc to end.

PS: If the ending were good I would also accept the whole "artistic integrity" argument and say "Yeah, let BW kill Shepard. It's what a hero gotta do" With the kind of ending we got I also say "Well a totally expected standard happy ending would have been preferable to what we got".
...(snip)

I think this best says it all. 

[KaiserShep]

While I think the game was fairly obvious about letting you know that Shepard survives, I guess what would have really made this bit more satisfying is if we get to see Shepard's face rather than just a torso. Having his/her eyes open would have sealed the deal and no one would even be bothered with this.

[Iakus]

Armass81 wrote...

That picture...
The LI not puttuing your plaque on the wall...
Shepards breath...

Do you need it spelled out for you really? This is not enough?

No, it's not enough.

I thought that would be obvious by now.

[dreamgazer]

Armass81 wrote...

That picture...
The LI not puttuing your plaque on the wall...
Shepards breath...

Do you need it spelled out for you really? This is not enough?

People have modded the game to erase canon plot elements and visualize a reunion.

Pretty clear at this point that it's not enough for some. 

[CDR David Shepard]

Why?

Why are people still so concerned with how others interpret this ending?

If you believe Shepard to be alive...that's great.

Why do you NEED others to feel the same about this scene?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Armass81 wrote...

That picture...
The LI not puttuing your plaque on the wall...
Shepards breath...

Do you need it spelled out for you really? This is not enough?

To be honest, no it's not enough. 

It'd fix so much if they just did the breathe scene in a hospital, with the LI's silhouette standing over Shepard, and clasping his/her hand after he breathes. An even more in-depth ending would be even better.

Plus, the Citadel Party works wonders as a post-ending destroy event.

[Iakus]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

Why?

Why are people still so concerned with how others interpret this ending?

If you believe Shepard to be alive...that's great.

Why do you NEED others to feel the same about this scene?

Because the evidence we are given is not enough to sell me the concept.

I simply can't believe, though I really want to.

It's like Hackett said:

 You can pay a soldier to fire a gun, you can pay himto charge the enemy and take a hill, but you cant make them believe

You can't force someone to believe. 

[Mastone]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

so i was going through the mass effect folder and found this. yep shep is alive! period!


so what others believing that shepard died at the end of destroy is complete BS. and if you believe shepard died at the end of destroy its just your head canon. and not writers canon, coz in writers canon at the end of destroy shep lives.

so in destroy ending shepard lives! and thats what the writers wrote period.

Ah but you forgot to add the bit that happened afterwards, he got so depressed about the way everything turned out  he shot himself

[CDR David Shepard]

iakus wrote...

CDR David Shepard wrote...

Why?

Why are people still so concerned with how others interpret this ending?

If you believe Shepard to be alive...that's great.

Why do you NEED others to feel the same about this scene?

Because the evidence we are given is not enough to sell me the concept.

I simply can't believe, though I really want to.

It's like Hackett said:

 You can pay a soldier to fire a gun, you can pay himto charge the enemy and take a hill, but you cant make them believe

You can't force someone to believe. 

I think you misunderstood my question...

[Reorte]

Armass81 wrote...

That picture...
The LI not puttuing your plaque on the wall...
Shepards breath...

Do you need it spelled out for you really? This is not enough?

The problem with all of those is that whilst they tell you rationally that the writers intended Shepard to be alive they don't work emotionally. If it was reality - the breath was a last bit of CCTV footage captured before the camera died, and someone's girl/boyfriend refusing to accept they were dead you certainly wouldn't draw any conclusions whatsoever about a person's survival - so it boils down to the only real evidence being the motivation for their inclusion, rather than the content standing up on its own merits. Hence deeply unsatisfying.

[Reorte]

DistantUtopia wrote...

Mangalores wrote...
...(snip)
My main point is however: If the ending were any good, in my eyes it wouldn't matter to people if Shepard lived or died. They might have wanted Shepard to live but the story sold his death in a way that you'd find it a fitting way for his character arc to end.

PS: If the ending were good I would also accept the whole "artistic integrity" argument and say "Yeah, let BW kill Shepard. It's what a hero gotta do" With the kind of ending we got I also say "Well a totally expected standard happy ending would have been preferable to what we got".
...(snip)

I think this best says it all. 

I'm not sure that it wouldn't matter to me but it would leave me with much less ammunition to fire at it

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Reorte wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

Mangalores wrote...
...(snip)
My main point is however: If the ending were any good, in my eyes it wouldn't matter to people if Shepard lived or died. They might have wanted Shepard to live but the story sold his death in a way that you'd find it a fitting way for his character arc to end.

PS: If the ending were good I would also accept the whole "artistic integrity" argument and say "Yeah, let BW kill Shepard. It's what a hero gotta do" With the kind of ending we got I also say "Well a totally expected standard happy ending would have been preferable to what we got".
...(snip)

I think this best says it all. 

I'm not sure that it wouldn't matter to me but it would leave me with much less ammunition to fire at it

Ditto. I would never be happy with an ending where Shepard was forced to die. I don't personally see any way to end Shepard's arc with him dying that would be satisfying.

[KaiserShep]

Reorte wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

That picture...
The LI not puttuing your plaque on the wall...
Shepards breath...

Do you need it spelled out for you really? This is not enough?

The problem with all of those is that whilst they tell you rationally that the writers intended Shepard to be alive they don't work emotionally. If it was reality - the breath was a last bit of CCTV footage captured before the camera died, and someone's girl/boyfriend refusing to accept they were dead you certainly wouldn't draw any conclusions whatsoever about a person's survival - so it boils down to the only real evidence being the motivation for their inclusion, rather than the content standing up on its own merits. Hence deeply unsatisfying.

I get what you're saying, but thematic elements such as these defy reality anyway. Take the ending scene from Avatar, when Jake Sully's avatar wakes up. You know the transfer was successful, but you don't get anything more than that. The tone set by the entire end scene pretty much points out that everything was a success, and that the hero lives on. The key difference, which I think really does significantly affect it, is that you don't see Shepard's face. It would be like someone simply saying "Shepard's pulling through. He/she is in the hospital." but never showing him or her in the actual hospital bed. You know Shep is alive, but you just want to SEE it. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 30 avril 2013 - 06:08 .

[Wayning_Star]

shepard IS alive in destroy, it's in the manual, nothing more 'official' than that. She/he is just semi retired. No more VG's for Commander Shepard (ret.)...

[Iakus]

Reorte wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

Mangalores wrote...
...(snip)
My main point is however: If the ending were any good, in my eyes it wouldn't matter to people if Shepard lived or died. They might have wanted Shepard to live but the story sold his death in a way that you'd find it a fitting way for his character arc to end.

PS: If the ending were good I would also accept the whole "artistic integrity" argument and say "Yeah, let BW kill Shepard. It's what a hero gotta do" With the kind of ending we got I also say "Well a totally expected standard happy ending would have been preferable to what we got".
...(snip)

I think this best says it all. 

I'm not sure that it wouldn't matter to me but it would leave me with much less ammunition to fire at it

In any case, I think the endings and the Citadel DLC prove one thing:

A nonsensical but upbeat story is far better received than a nonsensical but depressing story...

[PsyrenY]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

Why?

Why are people still so concerned with how others interpret this ending?

If you believe Shepard to be alive...that's great.

Why do you NEED others to feel the same about this scene?

This

[Creature0fHabit]

Mangalores wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
...

How would I be happy when Shepard committed suicide?

And generally breath scenes like that are... more complete. As in, they actually show the character is alive and gets out of the rubble. Or like this for sequels. However, since niether will happen, it's a complete slap in the face and a big "FU".

Stories are not about you being happy but being brought on a journey and be satisfied at their conclusion. Good storywriting makes you throw a book that kills a character into the corner but at the same time feel content that this character completed his arc the way it had to happen. That you know that their actions are so in tune with their character that you cannot let them survive without you essentially subverting them to be something else than what they are.

I'm of the opinion that stories should evoke emotions and they don't always have to be happy ones.  They just have to be satisfying. I wasn't happy about Tom Hank's character dieing in Saving Private Ryan but it would have diminished the character to go through all that and just walk away.


These breathe scenes are just a cheap cop out after someone tried to elicit precisely that emotion from you. It makes the end of a character's arc less meaningful. Either let a hero live or make him die but don't make him die to miraculously survive after the ending credits. It just means you as the stoywriter weren't earnest about this character's sacrifice.

This

[o Ventus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ditto. I would never be happy with an ending where Shepard was forced to die. I don't personally see any way to end Shepard's arc with him dying that would be satisfying.

But he HAS to die, you see, because he's the epic hero!

[Iakus]

o Ventus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ditto. I would never be happy with an ending where Shepard was forced to die. I don't personally see any way to end Shepard's arc with him dying that would be satisfying.

But he HAS to die, you see, because he's the epic hero!

Dang, I guess my Bhaalspawn characters who start out as a level 1 nobody in Candlekeep and end the game battling demons, dragons and demigods before turning down godhood and settling for a mortal life aren't epic heroes?

[David7204]

I think we can do without pretending we're accomplishing anything by making lame sarcastic 'jokes' to reinforce what we all already know and agree with.

[Iakus]

FIne how about:

Saaying  "the hero has to" in a choice-based game deafeats the whole purpose.

?

[Kel Riever]

Shepard lives in High EMS Destroy.

Fact.

Because how breathing works is a fact, too.

Even if some one BioWare author who failed high school biology wants you to think otherwise. That same author probably believes you can make blue unicorns appear if you wave your spoon like a magic wand. And they are probably trying it right now....

[David7204]

That's not true. Shepard has to go after Saren. S/he has to work with Cerberus and defeat the Collectors. S/he has to spend the Reaper invasion uniting the galaxy.

Modifié par David7204, 30 avril 2013 - 06:52 .