225 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

I think the whole idea is badly confused. Whether the players were new or old, Bio wasn't ever going to expend lots more resources on alternate paths for different savegames. ME3's already doing more of that than any RPG sequel ever.

Also note that 50% of ME2 players didn't import from ME1 (pre-PS3 figure). Bio was right to expect a lot of new players.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 avril 2013 - 06:55 .

[Redbelle]

AlanC9 wrote...

I think the whole idea is badly confused. Whether the players were new or old, Bio wasn't ever going to expend lots more resources on alternate paths for different savegames. ME3's already doing more of that than any RPG sequel ever.

Also note that 50% of ME2 players didn't import from ME1 (pre-PS3 figure). Bio was right to expect a lot of new players.

I'm not sure by what you mean when you say alternative paths for different save games. Mass Effect is full of alternative path's. Perhaps not in map content but in character action's and intent's.

Take Zaeed in ME2. His loyalty mission either ended in his living or dying, with innocent civilian's living or dying, with the big bad dying or escaping. These may all be encountered running along the same path but the branching out of the consequence's lead's to alternative's for our hero.

Samara in ME3, her time to shine mission leads to her living or dying, and her daughter living or dying. Again both alternative's path's that the gameplay can pursue.

And it's here again that I repeat. Mass Effect is not primarily about maps and guns. It's about the character's. Take the character's away and it's just a cover shooter.

Yet because it has these character's and, more importantly, because these character's respond to your decesions, they become 3 dimensional character's in term's of personality. Those personalities, their belief's, and value's are all on the table to be shaped by the player. And yet, the player is in turned shaped by these character's. (Unless your intentionally playing a version of Shepard you have resolved will not be influenced by the NPC's. That said my Renegade Shepard could never quite take the step to genocide of the Rachni in ME1. That was a step to far as a Renegade for me, in the same way that commiting an act of racism by throwing a ball at an inter-racial couple in Bioshock:Infinite, was likewise a step too far. Take That Announcer.)

Either way, the alteratives are there. And they depend on the person playing them as to which alternative is selected that affect's the NPC's around you.

[DistantUtopia]

They hired the wrong Cereal killer?

[MegaIllusiveMan]

DistantUtopia wrote...

They hired the wrong Cereal killer?

Cereal Killer? I heard something about Kai Leng on Deception... It was that? I didn't read it.

[Fixers0]

Mass Effect 3's fetch quest were truly horrible, it's worse then planet scanning.

[Redbelle]

Fetch quests. The problem with them is that they operate on a bungee system.

Citadel (Quest giver) >>>> Scan and find <Booooooiiiiiinnnnnng> Citadel (run all the way back to the quest giver)

The problem I find in general with fetch quests is that they can take you to places you don'twant to go. That said there is one time when I love fetch quests. Orientation. Say, for example, I need to get to a shop that I've never been to before, a fetch quest to that shop, with mission compass and all, will help me find and locate the objective, burning a map in my head for getting there again next time, bolstered by running back to redeem the quest.

Fetch quest's can be used to aid the player as they progress through the game world by giving them an added incentive to go to and talk to certain people.

[Archonsg]

Perhaps it is not so much as "different" endings but a singular ending that should reflect the player's choices and path s/he took in the course of three games?

Ultimately, we have only one ending. Defeat of the Reapers.
However, that end itself should reflect the player's choices and decisions made in game. Which is what the epilogue is for.

Did you make anti-alien renegade choices?
Are you a peacemaker making Paragon choices?
Are you paragade, valuing life but not willing and able to spend lifes to achieve a goal.
And so on.

Variations can run into the stratosphere, though I do think that it can be boiled down to six distinct "paths".
1) Naive Paragon
2) Peacemaker Paragon
3) Do what is needed Paragade
4) Hard but fair Renegon
5) Don't get in my way Renegade
6) Psychotic Renegade

Note that the two extremes would end "poorly".

In any case, a singular ending can, should reflect on the above six paths, the epilogue that follows should at the least mirror the player's actions throughout the series, and from there, show cause and effect, as well as consequences for your actions over those three games.

It's not just for the lack of a happy ending, it is the lack of anything personal or reflecting the emotional investment you have made in the course of the series.

[Cheviot]

[quote]MegaIllusiveMan wrote...

Do you think that Mass Effect Universe Side-quests didn't have anything to do with Mass Effect 3(The Recovery of a Cerberus agent data on the Omega Nebula in ME2, for example) and some DLCs, like Liara becoming the Shadow Broker even if you didn't do it, and some minor occurrences, like having more guns or Dr.Gavin Archer appearing, you still being arrested on Earth even if you didn't blew the Alpha relay, introducing the Catalyst, the super gun that defeats Reapers on ME3:

Was because Mass Effect 3 was intended for new players?[/quote]

No.  Liara was always going to try to get Feron back, and the Alliance would've arrested Shepard for his involvement with Cerberus.  The data from the Cerberus agent wasn't decoded yet (EDI suggests it would take a year).

[/quote]

[Redbelle]

Archonsg wrote...

Perhaps it is not so much as "different" endings but a singular ending that should reflect the player's choices and path s/he took in the course of three games?

Ultimately, we have only one ending. Defeat of the Reapers.
However, that end itself should reflect the player's choices and decisions made in game. Which is what the epilogue is for.

Did you make anti-alien renegade choices?
Are you a peacemaker making Paragon choices?
Are you paragade, valuing life but not willing and able to spend lifes to achieve a goal.
And so on.

Variations can run into the stratosphere, though I do think that it can be boiled down to six distinct "paths".
1) Naive Paragon
2) Peacemaker Paragon
3) Do what is needed Paragade
4) Hard but fair Renegon
5) Don't get in my way Renegade
6) Psychotic Renegade

Note that the two extremes would end "poorly".

In any case, a singular ending can, should reflect on the above six paths, the epilogue that follows should at the least mirror the player's actions throughout the series, and from there, show cause and effect, as well as consequences for your actions over those three games.

It's not just for the lack of a happy ending, it is the lack of anything personal or reflecting the emotional investment you have made in the course of the series.

No ME1 end screen showing red or blue Shepard. Or TIM's colour changing star at the end of ME2.

Renegade or paragon doesn't seem to hold much sway in ME3. Which is a shame. Because it's one of those staples of ME. Play a certain way. Have your Para/Rene score reflected in some way/shape/form at the end.

It's about identity. Things that are always present that define a game or character. You wouldn't take away Ebony and Ivory from Dante, or stop the MGS franchise from popping a credit for the Voice actor's over a newly emerged boss character. It's a little detail, but these details can make a game.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

spockjedi wrote...
Good points. I also imagined a five-episodes series like this:

- ME1: Discover the Reaper threat
- ME2: Stop the Collectors and learn more about the Reapers.
- ME3: Find a way to stop the Reapers. Stop Cerberus.
- ME4: Unite the Galaxy. Prepare for the Reaper Invasion. Repel the first Reaper wave.
-ME5: Stop the Reapers. Go to the Dark Space. Kill Harbinger "on foot". Good ending: marriage, old age and lots of little (blue) children.

ME1: Keep as is.

ME2: Keep as is.

ME3: Find Reaper solution. Stop, or in my case, integrate Cerberus.

ME4: Sounds good. Get rid of the Reaper repelling.

ME5: Use method to beat the Reapers. Get happy ending. Marriage, eternal youth, and no blue babies. I hate Liara.

[Megaton_Hope]

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

They hired the wrong Cereal killer?

Cereal Killer? I heard something about Kai Leng on Deception... It was that? I didn't read it.

[AlanC9]

Redbelle wrote...

I'm not sure by what you mean when you say alternative paths for different save games. Mass Effect is full of alternative path's. Perhaps not in map content but in character action's and intent's.

Umm... yeah. Like I said, ME already does more of this than any RPG series ever. But as near as I can tell the OP is asking for even more.

[AlanC9]

Edit: DP

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 avril 2013 - 12:24 .

[Megaton_Hope]

AlanC9 wrote...
Also note that 50% of ME2 players didn't import from ME1 (pre-PS3 figure). Bio was right to expect a lot of new players.

Well, you couldn't on PS3, anyway.

[AlanC9]

Redbelle wrote...

Fetch quests. The problem with them is that they operate on a bungee system.

Citadel (Quest giver) >>>> Scan and find <Booooooiiiiiinnnnnng> Citadel (run all the way back to the quest giver)

Of course, a sensible player wouldn't do it that way. He'd pick up whatever quests came his way as he walked wound the Citadel on other business, pick up items while he did other stuff, and turn in stuff next time he was on the Citadel.

Fetch quest's can be used to aid the player as they progress through the game world by giving them an added incentive to go to and talk to certain people.

That's kind of what they do in ME3. They're an incentive to walk around the Citadel and hear stuff.

[AlanC9]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Also note that 50% of ME2 players didn't import from ME1 (pre-PS3 figure). Bio was right to expect a lot of new players.

Well, you couldn't on PS3, anyway.

Right. That's 50% of the players who could have imported, not 50% of total players.

[Tron Mega]

AlanC9 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Fetch quests. The problem with them is that they operate on a bungee system.

Citadel (Quest giver) >>>> Scan and find <Booooooiiiiiinnnnnng> Citadel (run all the way back to the quest giver)

Of course, a sensible player wouldn't do it that way. He'd pick up whatever quests came his way as he walked wound the Citadel on other business, pick up items while he did other stuff, and turn in stuff next time he was on the Citadel.

Fetch quest's can be used to aid the player as they progress through the game world by giving them an added incentive to go to and talk to certain people.

That's kind of what they do in ME3. They're an incentive to walk around the Citadel and hear stuff.

weaksauce alan.

and you know the reasons why becasue youve played the game.

[Iakus]

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...
]
Fetch quest's can be used to aid the player as they progress through the game world by giving them an added incentive to go to and talk to certain people. [/quote]

That's kind of what they do in ME3. They're an incentive to walk around the Citadel and hear stuff.

[/quote]

Eh, these aren't much better then the DA2 fetch quests where you find the skeleton of some pirate and end up wandering Darktown looking for someone to give you gold for it...

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

In subsequent playthroughs, I never had a problem with ME3 fetch quests. I'd always complete them at the beginning and end of each act so as to provide a cooldown (during the most logical point in time) for the next act. It improved the pacing and helped to integrate them into the game in a way that the other games' fetch quests generally couldn't.

[spirosz]

What went wrong? Bioware wanting players to be able to experience everything.

Consequences? Stop advertising the series as a game that's driven by such.

[AlanC9]

Tron Mega wrote...

weaksauce alan.

and you know the reasons why becasue youve played the game.

Blame Redbelle. I'm just pointing out that the quests do what he said they're supposed to do.

I'd have mentioned they're incentive for exploring the galaxy map too, but you already get EMS points for doing that.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 avril 2013 - 03:09 .

[csmokey]

of course the game and story would have been different, they had to dumb down the universe that was created for the new player, sure it brought the game to new players and helped its sales but the game suffered, there are some people that will disagree, but how can you create a game for new players when its already 2 games in

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Eh, these aren't much better then the DA2 fetch quests where you find the skeleton of some pirate and end up wandering Darktown looking for someone to give you gold for it...

But in ME3 you don't have to wander. There's no particular need to pick up quests in advance unless you like to listen to Citadel ambient convos anyway. And when you have the stuff to resolve a quest the map shows you where to go.

You do have to go to a bunch of different places on the Citadel, yep.

Edit: I probably come across as more supportive than I mean to be. Personally, I thought the FQs were a reward for stuff I was gonna do anyway. OTOH, they were all but free.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 avril 2013 - 03:21 .

[Redbelle]

AlanC9 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Fetch quests. The problem with them is that they operate on a bungee system.

Citadel (Quest giver) >>>> Scan and find <Booooooiiiiiinnnnnng> Citadel (run all the way back to the quest giver)

Of course, a sensible player wouldn't do it that way. He'd pick up whatever quests came his way as he walked wound the Citadel on other business, pick up items while he did other stuff, and turn in stuff next time he was on the Citadel.

Fetch quest's can be used to aid the player as they progress through the game world by giving them an added incentive to go to and talk to certain people.

That's kind of what they do in ME3. They're an incentive to walk around the Citadel and hear stuff.

I think your missing the fundamental difference from the fetch quests of ME3, compared to the fetch quest's of say, Kingdom of Amular.

In ME3 we never have to explore new area's of hub world, because there are not that many.

In KoA you keep arriving at new towns and villages where you don't know where any of the shops or people of interest are.

Also, ME3 missed a trick in allowing dialogue wheel conversation with the quest givers. Take the pillers of fire or whatever they are you give to the Batarian priest. The fact you are talking to a priest implies a religous aspect to their culture. A culture that has thus far been,primarily defined, by miltiary strength and acts of terrorism. The priest could have been a dialogue investigation in discovering another aspect of the Batarian culture.

*edit* And that right at the end of your post is a brilliant way of looking at the problem with fetch quests. You walk around and hear stuff. You don't interact with it in the traditional ME way of dialogue wheeling.

Listening is a passive experience. The DW is an interactive experience. And if the developers make fetch quest's designed to expand the lore of the game I'd like to find out that lore through interaction with character's who can explain it to my character.

Modifié par Redbelle, 30 avril 2013 - 07:19 .