225 réponses à ce sujet

[Redbelle]

AlanC9 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

I'm not sure by what you mean when you say alternative paths for different save games. Mass Effect is full of alternative path's. Perhaps not in map content but in character action's and intent's.

Umm... yeah. Like I said, ME already does more of this than any RPG series ever. But as near as I can tell the OP is asking for even more.

I don't think the OP is asking for more. I think instead, he's asking for gameplay element's that missed the mark of hitting the theme of what ME is about. We've already spoken of the famial aspect of ME and how that never really came out until they released Citadel DLC.

Related to the above is the lack of dialogue conversation's compared to ME1 and 2. Or perhaps another way of looking at it is that the dialogue wheel eventually stops appearing the more you talk to a character. Leaving only stock prescipted replies. Vega is a good example of this as, beyond his fist fight and N7 recruitment conversation, he has no dialogue wheel conversation's in the hanger. It's all stock replies that are not conversation's. And talking is an integral part of interacting with your crew.

Same with Ashley. After saving her after the council she appears on the Normandy and she has nothing to say beyond stock replies. A conversation with her could have finally cleared the air and had her opening up to why she is so mistrustful, and how she's making a bigger effort to trust Shepard.

Yet........ Some character's have plenty of dialogue wheel action. So why were some character's given lots of dialogue and some none? They all have something to say. Some outlook or point of view brought about by their life experience's or social standing in the galaxy.

If ME2 was about an ensemble character driven game, then ME3 is less intimate in how you interact with your squad. And for ME4 I'd like to see the character's, once more be accessible and opininated like they were in ME1 and 2.

Modifié par Redbelle, 30 avril 2013 - 07:09 .

[AlanC9]

 In ME1 the dialogue wheel kept popping up, but you ended up repeating the last convo if the character didn't have a new one. And in ME2 the dialogue wheel kept popping up too, but it would turn out that the character didn't actually have anything to say except  calibrations, etc. CRPG characters only have so many lines and so many interactions. ME3 didn't pretend to have new interactions where there weren't any.

Now, If you want to make a case about the total number of interactions, let's see some numbers. When I counted for a couple of characters ME3 beat ME2 hands down -- before counting the mission-specific one-liners. But it's quite possible that I looked at the wrong characters; didn't have the patience to do all of them.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 avril 2013 - 09:03 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Well, here's an example. Let's say that my character had a romance with Liara. When I go down to Liara's room on the Normandy, she will say something along the lines of "Nice to see you, Shepard." When I meet her in Presidium Commons, she will say "Hello, Shepard." There are a few longer conversations, but they're entirely scripted in, you can't just sort of have them by walking up to a person and pushing the conversation button.

Which is a real snafu, with somebody your character is supposed to be close to, in a situation where you're fighting for your lives against an all-powerful enemy.

[AlanC9]

So the problem isn't that there are fewer interactions, it's that the player doesn't control the timing of them?

[Indy_S]

More that it feels less intimate.

[Redbelle]

AlanC9 wrote...

 In ME1 the dialogue wheel kept popping up, but you ended up repeating the last convo if the character didn't have a new one. And in ME2 the dialogue wheel kept popping up too, but it would turn out that the character didn't actually have anything to say except  calibrations, etc. CRPG characters only have so many lines and so many interactions. ME3 didn't pretend to have new interactions where there weren't any.

Now, If you want to make a case about the total number of interactions, let's see some numbers. When I counted for a couple of characters ME3 beat ME2 hands down -- before counting the mission-specific one-liners. But it's quite possible that I looked at the wrong characters; didn't have the patience to do all of them.

I can see your POV. If a character has nothing too say why bother having the character say anything much?

But this is Mass Effect. Cinematic cutscene-esque dialogue mode mass effect. And that cinematic dialogue mode where the camera stops following you, take's position over the shoulder and changes it's view depending on whether the character step's away to lean wearily on a railing, or burst's out into Gilbert and Sulivan, or takes a dive off a cliff. Or settles on an NPC who is not part of a conversation moving off to look at something, thereby giving the two character's some space for a more intimate conversation, as opposed to sticking to your four o'clock and evesdropping on everything said.

The point is, it's roleplay. Shepard is a commander and at the very least should be acknowledged when he walks up to someone. There is a world of difference between an explore mode camera and a 'hey' fromt he NPC. And a dialogue mode camera that see's the NPC turn away from what he or she was doing in physcal acknowledgement of Shepards presence, giving a nod and saying 'hey'. Maybe they don't have anything to say. But they respond to you in a way that many other NPC characer's form other games don't. And it cannot be overstated how effective this technique is at connecting you to these characters.

As for the total number of interactions. I'm going to argue which had the larger numebr. Instead I'm going to argue consistentcy and quality each interaction. ME 1 and 2 had good quality and consistency, inthat you could go up, talk to someone and be acknowledged, even if it was a repeat of earlier converation's, or a blow off. ME3 had character's with no dialogue wheel action, character's who did not give Shepard (i.e. the player) acknowledgement when they sought them out to see if they had dialogue and as such, they became game fixtures, or window dressing. Relying heavily on their past involvment's to convince that these character had personality, rather than using the circumstance's of event's to allow new dialogue to occur, thereby showing that they were still invested in event's and by extension, the misson.

Cutting dialogue and making dialogue opportunities inconsistent among it's character's may not have been a game breaker. But it did damage the crucial part of, get to know what your crew is thinking between missions, aspect of the gameplay.

Modifié par Redbelle, 30 avril 2013 - 10:38 .

[Iakus]

Indy_S wrote...

More that it feels less intimate.

There's another thing DAO did well.

When you clicked on a character to talk to them, their response changed based on the reputation you had with them, including if you were a LI with them

[Mathias]

MegaIllusiveMan wrote...

1- What everyone has against EA? Sure they did something wrong on Mass Effect 3, but if EA would have delivered Mass Effect 3 as a kick-ass game, IMHO there wouldn't have things like: EA Sucked, etc.

I find it very hard to believe that you don't know why people hate EA. The company that is notorious for ruining developers and franchises, for YEARS.

2- Yes, they did wrong with that. But I think Mass Effect 3 was meant with a small squad because they wanted to focus on Character Relationships, thus they put the Character Writer in Charge.

They wanted to focus on Character Relationships, but I guess that leaves out the ME2 squad eh? Plus I think we've seen how putting a character writer in charge worked out for them.

3- Actually(again, in my honest opinion) they had 3 years, because IIRC Bioware started producing Mass Effect 3 even before Mass Effect 2 was released, when it was in mid-production there was a team working on Mass Effect 2 and another on 3. (I remember that somewhere. Can't find the source )

They were in full production when ME2 was finished, even in that regard it wasn't enough and it shows. It shows when you see how little difference your choices made, the rushed final 3 hours, the bad journal system, etc etc. They simply did not have enough time, and EA wanted this game out by November 2011. They asked for more time and only got 3 months.

4- Casual audience? Sorry, I didn't understand... Could you please explain?

EA wanted more money, so they wanted Mass Effect 3 to be streamlined to appeal to the more casual crowd, instead of focusing on their core audience, which are fans of Mass Effect, Sci-Fi, and Rpgs. You didn't find it strange that Casey said "ME3 is the best place to start the trilogy"? In what world does that make any logical sense, that starting towards the end of a story, is the best place to begin a story? 

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...


There's another thing DAO did well.

When you clicked on a character to talk to them, their response changed based on the reputation you had with them, including if you were a LI with them

True. On the flip side, DA:O was very bad at pacing the interactions. Or rather, it left that up to the player. My guess is they were getting away from the way KotOR did it.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...


There's another thing DAO did well.

When you clicked on a character to talk to them, their response changed based on the reputation you had with them, including if you were a LI with them

True. On the flip side, DA:O was very bad at pacing the interactions. Or rather, it left that up to the player. My guess is they were getting away from the way KotOR did it.

Separate issue, though.

[Redbelle]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...


There's another thing DAO did well.

When you clicked on a character to talk to them, their response changed based on the reputation you had with them, including if you were a LI with them

True. On the flip side, DA:O was very bad at pacing the interactions. Or rather, it left that up to the player. My guess is they were getting away from the way KotOR did it.

It's this 'leaving it up to the player' part that I liked. Player control to explore what the game has to offer and finding the limit's of what it offer's is as much an exploration as trudging across planet's.

If ME1 was made with the ideology of player freedom in all thing's, then by contrast ME3 removed the freedom of the player to the extent it was present in ME1 by having character's decide to not engage in dialogue mode conversation's.

It may have been a time saving device. I hope it was a time saving device. And that ME4 will put the player more firmly back in the driver seat of character interaction where the player controls beginning and ending dialogue. Even if the dialogue is ended by the NPC saying, "Can it wait? I'm in the middle of some calibration's." followed by only one wheel choice of 'Leave - Talk to you later Garrus'.

It may not be a supreme level of control some might imagine a player ought to have. But it's an immersive way of pushing the player along to the next character, and so on and so on, till all that's left is the next mission.

It's much better than running into Vega and spamming interact to make him go. "Heyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyeyey"

I'd rather have this

[Bleachrude]

I totally disagree with Redbelle et al.

How exactly is it more immersive that in previous games, Garrus has a dialogue wheel that says the EXACT same things no matter the situation and stays in the same place for the entire game once you do the initial 4 conversations?

Conversely ME3 Garrus that actually will refer to the mission you just went on (even on the side/optional missions he'll comment about whereas before in ME1-ME2 he says nothing unless it's his own side quest/loyalty mission), moves about the ship and you can hear him interacting with the crew?

I honestly can't understand how people see the former as more immersive?

There's also the fact that in ME3, it seems like there are a two or three "end of new dialogue, repeat this phrase" instead of the previous 1 phrase....Redbelle used the "hey, hey" but Vega will also at times repeat "do you hear that hum" phrase

As an aside, the "pick a side" mechanic is auto-dialogue but how would you accomplish that with the dialogue wheel?

Engineer Adams Vs Donnelly for example not only has adams and donnelly making back and forth arguments, but also EDI jumping in with comments....you know, I just realized that Adams has more unique spoken dialogue in ME3 than he AND Pressley had combined in ME1

EDIT: One point I forgot to add is that ME3 does have the same number of "dialogue wheel" interactions with your crew members...they're just not all on the ship.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 30 avril 2013 - 09:23 .

[Megaton_Hope]

AlanC9 wrote...

So the problem isn't that there are fewer interactions, it's that the player doesn't control the timing of them?

Well, that's what I'd say. While some conversations obviously need to be triggered at particular points in the story, the side characters shouldn't just say "Hey there, boss" when you walk by and try to talk to them. There should be at least something as rudimentary as Liara's "How does Asari sex work? Too bad your mom's crazy" options from ME1. Which may be repetitive, but doesn't come across as a brush-off.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

True. On the flip side, DA:O was very bad at pacing the interactions. Or rather, it left that up to the player. My guess is they were getting away from the way KotOR did it.

Separate issue, though.

Is it really separate? Weren't we talking about how the limited NPC dialogues are spaced out?

[AlanC9]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
There should be at least something as rudimentary as Liara's "How does Asari sex work? Too bad your mom's crazy" options from ME1. Which may be repetitive, but doesn't come across as a brush-off.

I'd rather get a brush-off than a straight-up rerun of a conversation we've already had.

[AlanC9]

Redbelle wrote...
It's this 'leaving it up to the player' part that I liked. Player control to explore what the game has to offer and finding the limit's of what it offer's is as much an exploration as trudging across planet's.

We may have a very fundamental disagreement about what an RPG is and ought to be. I just want to play my character. I do not want to manage the pacing of the content. While I liked DA:O very much, this part of the deisgn failed for me.

I am also not a fan of player freedom in all things or exploration for exploration's sake.

If ME1 was made with the ideology of player freedom in all thing's, then by contrast ME3 removed the freedom of the player to the extent it was present in ME1 by having character's decide to not engage in dialogue mode conversation's.

It may have been a time saving device. I hope it was a time saving device. And that ME4 will put the player more firmly back in the driver seat of character interaction where the player controls beginning and ending dialogue. Even if the dialogue is ended by the NPC saying, "Can it wait? I'm in the middle of some calibration's." followed by only one wheel choice of 'Leave - Talk to you later Garrus'.

It may not be a supreme level of control some might imagine a player ought to have. But it's an immersive way of pushing the player along to the next character, and so on and so on, till all that's left is the next mission.

I'm a little confused by this. You initiate conversation in the exact same way in all three games; nothing's changed about the player controlling when conversations happen on the Normandy. And all three games metered out the NPC conversations according to how far you'd progressed in the plot. The difference is that you don't drop into conversation mode in ME3 if there isn't actually a new conversation to have.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 mai 2013 - 06:10 .

[Redbelle]

To contrast. ME1 and 2. All had dialogue wheel mode's that could be intitiated by walking upto and hitting interact.

Singling out Vega in ME3...... he had dialogue mode at the start, then never had the wheel conversation's again at his station in the hanger.

I've already mentioned above why dialogue mode is important, even if a character has no new conversation's to have.

As for not being a fan of exploration, that's a fair view. And the action mode of the game cater's to that. But RPG mode ought to offer the more traditional Mass Effect experience, on account that it is more immersive in how the character interact with your Shepard. RPG mode really should have had the hacking as well, but that's an issue for another time.

It may seem like a little detail. But, it's like comparing LotR cinema cut to LotR extended cut where, in the space of 2 sec's, Gimli casts a look over to another character in response to something Aragon said. It may not have been neccessary, but the movie is richer for giving that bit of characterisation to the audience to view. The details can can imply certain emotion's and thoughts running through the character's mind that is more appropriate than if Gimli had said. "The boy's been on the mushrooms again".

The problem with no conversation mode engaging when you talk to a character is that the characters stop being character's who don't want to talk. They become non moving, non interactive digital husks that do not convince that they are people. And ME need's it's character's to scream that they are not wire framed and rendered digital avatar's, but that they are <insert character name here>.

Its a detail. But adding that detail makes the gameplay a richer experience.

In much the same way as being able to holster or having the weapon you selected in loadout and appearing in a cutscene, rather than the default rifle, is a detail that adds to the experience.

Modifié par Redbelle, 01 mai 2013 - 07:20 .

[Tefnacht]

One thing about ME dialog I really dislike is how it begins (and ends). We have a voiced protagonist and yet the first spoken sentence always comes from the character you decide to talk to. This is a relic from the silent protagonist era that really has to go.
I don't know about you guys but if I want to talk to a friend, colleague or random person on the street, it is usually me who says the first word to indicate I want to talk, not them. Why is this still done silently? If I want to talk to someone, I usually don't just poke them in the ribs to get their attention, I say something to them.

This might also “redeem” the single line responses you get from characters that have nothing new to say. With pressing the interact button your avatar actually asks them if they have a moment, they say no. You decide to greet them as you walk past, they acknowledge your presence without engaging in a real conversation. Much more “organic” behavior.

Just compare these two, which one seems more likely to happen?

Garrus: Shepard, need me for something?
Shepard: Have you got a minute?
Garrus: Can it wait for a bit? I am in the middle of some calibrations.
Shepard: Talk to you later, Garrus.
Garrus: I'll be here if you need me.

Shepard: Garrus, you got a minute?
Garrus: Can it wait for a bit? I am in the middle of some calibrations.
Shepard: Sure. Talk to you later.

[Redbelle]

Tefnacht wrote...

One thing about ME dialog I really dislike is how it begins (and ends). We have a voiced protagonist and yet the first spoken sentence always comes from the character you decide to talk to. This is a relic from the silent protagonist era that really has to go.
I don't know about you guys but if I want to talk to a friend, colleague or random person on the street, it is usually me who says the first word to indicate I want to talk, not them. Why is this still done silently? If I want to talk to someone, I usually don't just poke them in the ribs to get their attention, I say something to them.

This might also “redeem” the single line responses you get from characters that have nothing new to say. With pressing the interact button your avatar actually asks them if they have a moment, they say no. You decide to greet them as you walk past, they acknowledge your presence without engaging in a real conversation. Much more “organic” behavior.

Just compare these two, which one seems more likely to happen?

Garrus: Shepard, need me for something?
Shepard: Have you got a minute?
Garrus: Can it wait for a bit? I am in the middle of some calibrations.
Shepard: Talk to you later, Garrus.
Garrus: I'll be here if you need me.

Shepard: Garrus, you got a minute?
Garrus: Can it wait for a bit? I am in the middle of some calibrations.
Shepard: Sure. Talk to you later.

Nice observation. And true from a dialogue writers perspective. Though a little waffle can pad the encounter so it's not a flashpan dialogue sequence.

[Tron Mega]

AlanC9 wrote...

 In ME1 the dialogue wheel kept popping up, but you ended up repeating the last convo if the character didn't have a new one. And in ME2 the dialogue wheel kept popping up too, but it would turn out that the character didn't actually have anything to say except  calibrations, etc. CRPG characters only have so many lines and so many interactions. ME3 didn't pretend to have new interactions where there weren't any.

Now, If you want to make a case about the total number of interactions, let's see some numbers. When I counted for a couple of characters ME3 beat ME2 hands down -- before counting the mission-specific one-liners. But it's quite possible that I looked at the wrong characters; didn't have the patience to do all of them.

i want face time with my NPCs. i remember most of the ME1 sidequests because i talked to the people i was helping. i dont remember a single ME3 sidequests becasue i completeled them by walking past someone  whome ive never even talked to and hitting A once.

if your asking me which way id rather have it, its 100% ME1 and ME2. ME3s way of handling dialogue is something id expect a GTA game to try to accomplish, noth the third part of a trilogy like mass effect.

ME3 is pretty much the easy way of trying to do something awesome. i mean really, the new things ME3 tried to do are the exact reasons i dont like the game.

oh well, atelast i can still expect good RPG/shooter when fallout4 comes out. thank god bethesda isnt trying to make games they arent good at making.

Modifié par Tron Mega, 01 mai 2013 - 03:35 .

[AlanC9]

Tron Mega wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
 In ME1 the dialogue wheel kept popping up, but you ended up repeating the last convo if the character didn't have a new one. And in ME2 the dialogue wheel kept popping up too, but it would turn out that the character didn't actually have anything to say except  calibrations, etc. CRPG characters only have so many lines and so many interactions. ME3 didn't pretend to have new interactions where there weren't any.

Now, If you want to make a case about the total number of interactions, let's see some numbers. When I counted for a couple of characters ME3 beat ME2 hands down -- before counting the mission-specific one-liners. But it's quite possible that I looked at the wrong characters; didn't have the patience to do all of them.

i want face time with my NPCs. i remember most of the ME1 sidequests because i talked to the people i was helping. i dont remember a single ME3 sidequests becasue i completeled them by walking past someone  whome ive never even talked to and hitting A once.

I was not speaking very precisely there. I was only talking about NPC interactions on the Normandy, not the fetch quest interactions or any other NPC interactions. Not that you're going OT, just that I wasn't talking about that part of the topic.

if your asking me which way id rather have it, its 100% ME1 and ME2. ME3s way of handling dialogue is something id expect a GTA game to try to accomplish, noth the third part of a trilogy like mass effect.

OK. So what would you have cut from ME3? Even with implementing fetch quests the way they did, ME3 still had substantially more dialogue than the previous games. I wouldn't want to lose, say, squadmate reactions to the previous mission.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 mai 2013 - 06:56 .

[AlanC9]

Redbelle wrote...
I've already mentioned above why dialogue mode is important, even if a character has no new conversation's to have.

 I guess I neither share your feelings nor understand your rationale. So, different tastes, again.

The problem with no conversation mode engaging when you talk to a character is that the characters stop being character's who don't want to talk. They become non moving, non interactive digital husks that do not convince that they are people. And ME need's it's character's to scream that they are not wire framed and rendered digital avatar's, but that they are <insert character name here>.

And there's the difference. Talking to Garrus and getting the "calibrations" response works exactly once for me. The second time I get that response I feel exactly as you do above, except that not only is Garrus now obviously just a program who's got nothing left in his dialogue tree, but I've just wasted my time on a worthless interaction.

Since I'm going to get that feeling anyway, I don't want to get the worthless interaction too.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 mai 2013 - 07:03 .

[Redbelle]

So why click on them twice if you get the 'not now I'm busy' speech.

By contrast. If I take the trouble to actively seek out a squad mate and they have nothing to say. Then my effort in traveling to them is a wasted effort. Yet, because of the nature of the last 2 Mass Effects, I'll keep traveling to them mission after mission on the ooff chance they have dialogue that I don't want to miss.

[chemiclord]

And why would them having nothing to say to you change that?

If you're obsessive compulsive enough to visit them after every mission, you're going to do so whether you get a fake, meaningless dialogue wheel or not.

I actually sometimes wonder if the people who claim ME1 and ME2 have more dialogue wheel options also count those stupid ones where you actually don't have any option at all. I bet they do.

No thanks to that meaningless illusion of choice.  I don't need it or want it.  I actually LIKE the fact that every so often I'm reminded that Shepard isn't the center of the ****ing universe and that people don't always have something to say to him/her.

Modifié par chemiclord, 01 mai 2013 - 09:10 .

[Bleachrude]

Tron Mega wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 In ME1 the dialogue wheel kept popping up, but you ended up repeating the last convo if the character didn't have a new one. And in ME2 the dialogue wheel kept popping up too, but it would turn out that the character didn't actually have anything to say except  calibrations, etc. CRPG characters only have so many lines and so many interactions. ME3 didn't pretend to have new interactions where there weren't any.

Now, If you want to make a case about the total number of interactions, let's see some numbers. When I counted for a couple of characters ME3 beat ME2 hands down -- before counting the mission-specific one-liners. But it's quite possible that I looked at the wrong characters; didn't have the patience to do all of them.

i want face time with my NPCs. i remember most of the ME1 sidequests because i talked to the people i was helping. i dont remember a single ME3 sidequests becasue i completeled them by walking past someone  whome ive never even talked to and hitting A once.

So...you don't actually listen to the ambient conversation AT ALL? I can remember the ME3 fetch quests since all of the quest givers will mention what the problem is and will still be there for a time.

(Although I don't remember the N7 missions from ME2 since those you got from email....)

I like Tefnact's idea though...click on them once and you the player initiate the conversation.

I don't mind in ME3 walking around the ship since the ship is very lively. Not only do the squadmates have something to say about the mission (even the smaller N7 missions) but the fact that they're also interacting with one another means that it is never a wasted opportunity to walk around. Hell, I like the fact that you can shape your shepard by taking part in the "you choose" options (I would like to see callbacks/conversations that refer to these "you decide" options)

Now, for ME1 and ME2 (especially the latter), walking around the ship is boring. 

Hmm...I wonder if the Diana Allers method would work....Diana Allers has a one word/line auto-dialogue when you first click on here and clicking on her a second time bring up the conversation wheel (since the game allows you to remove her from the ship at any time).

The only problem is that all of the squadmates actually cycle through more than one stock phrase so it might not be possible...for example, if you don't actually talk to Vega for consecutive missions, he'll have comments about each mission (and I think this is one to two lines per mission)....