225 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

You typically miss out on things  if you skip side quests. Side quest does not mean "has no impact whatsoever on the game" A side quest is one that is optional and not necessary for you to complete for you to complete the game.

I do find the lack of side quests a little disapointing, but the ones they included (except for those stupid scan quests) were generally of good quality.

But you don't miss out on something new, you have something old taken away. It's the difference between winning a new hat, and having your hat confiscated.

Redbelle wrote...
Isn't the Tchunka bomb quest, less of a side mission, and a specific part of a larger picture?

In ME1 you were given mission's with no bearing on the main quest. ME3's quest's are all about the Reaper war.

Well, it's one of the three missions you have to do to get the full strength of the Krogans behind you. If Eve dies at the gathering of the clans, they fall into bickering among themselves, and it has the same result for the war effort as if you sabotaged the cure for the Dalatrass. (Effectively negating the benefit of doing Priority Tuchanka, if you were trying to go through with the cure.)

The rescue mission on Rannoch, on the other hand, adds a bit to the chances of declaring peace between the Geth and the Quarians, but is not essential to it. Actually, you have all the background requirements met if you destroyed the Heretics in ME2, Tali was not exiled, and you resolve the conflict between the two using a Paragon or Renegade option.

The Geth server mission, on the other hand, is necessary, the way Tuchanka Bomb is. The game will fundamentally deny you the option of making peace if you haven't done that mission, whatever else you've done.

Certainly it can be played the other way, but you miss out on what you might expect to be able to do, given the way the games normally work.

Missions that aren't required to complete the game - Side Quests
Missions that aren't required to complete the game but ARE required to get a better ending - Side Quests
Missions that impact anything that happens in-game but does not stop you from completely the game itself - Side Quests.

There is no real difference in a side quest that only gives a player XP and/or a special weapon that can be used against a boss and one that, in ME3, affects EMS. Most RPGs seem to make side-quests isolated insedences outside of what's happening but even in ME2 this was beginning to be changed by the use of the Loyalty missions. They are side quests you don't need to do in order to complete the game however they are needed in order to get the best ending.

Loyalty missions aren't a part of the main story arc but do impact ingame results. They are "active" side quests rather than "passive" ones (passive being no influence outside of that small time).

I would much rather have a game that gave me "active" side quests which impact the game world around me than something which is almost thrown at me just to earn extra XP.

[AlanC9]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You missed the point. What if the quest was +375 EMS if you did it, and +0 if you did not? Same change to your EMS.

Then I would be missing out on something if I don't do it, and it would be a side quest. Rather than a quest that is not listed as a Priority by the developers.

OK, so now the real issue is that a 375 point swing is too much for a side-quest? How much is too much?

Are you sure you've thought this issue through? You don't seem to be expressing a coherent point of view here.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 mai 2013 - 02:14 .

[AlanC9]

This, on the other hand, is coherent.

Redbelle wrote...

And maybe that's how a sidequest can be defined. A diversion. Something that doesn't add to the main goal, or have any bearing on the story at hand. Tchunka's bomb had element's of creating a peace agreement for the war effort. And the Ardat Yakshi monestary showed us how the Reapers were making Banchee's. Both seem fairly important to the main storyline.

But this leaves me wondering if sidequests are worth having. In a plot like ME2's, sure. But in a plot like ME3's, or the plot ME1 pretended to have?

[Morlath]

AlanC9 wrote...

This, on the other hand, is coherent.

Redbelle wrote...

And maybe that's how a sidequest can be defined. A diversion. Something that doesn't add to the main goal, or have any bearing on the story at hand. Tchunka's bomb had element's of creating a peace agreement for the war effort. And the Ardat Yakshi monestary showed us how the Reapers were making Banchee's. Both seem fairly important to the main storyline.

But this leaves me wondering if sidequests are worth having. In a plot like ME2's, sure. But in a plot like ME3's, or the plot ME1 pretended to have?

By the definition of "diversion" it made sense in ME1 since you had no idea where Saren was. There was no race-against-time feeling to the story except for post Virmire and then the side-quests are locked out anyway. For ME3, no a diversional side-quest doesn't make sense and that's why the scanning is how you pick up these side-quests.

[AlanC9]

Hey, anyone know what's going on with that 4Chan graphic?

[AlanC9]

Morlath wrote...

By the definition of "diversion" it made sense in ME1 since you had no idea where Saren was. There was no race-against-time feeling to the story except for post Virmire and then the side-quests are locked out anyway. 

Well, you do have vague leads on where to start looking for Saren. A couple of the SQs could plausibly be ways to track him down too. Why is Shepard doing the others?

[Megaton_Hope]

This definition that it's "not required to complete the game," that's off TV Tropes, right? I don't feel beholden to use that particular definition.

Here are some I found elsewhere:

A quest given to the player that has no direct bearing on the main story/campaign of the game. Completion of a sidequest often results in the acquisition of money, items otherwise unavailable or unlocking another sidequest.

A quest in role-playing video games—including massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) and their predecessors, MUDs—is a task that a player-controlled character, "party" or group of characters may complete in order to gain a reward ... Many types of quests are referred to as "sidequests". These are specifically tasks which deviate from the main plot, and are often not required to complete the game. Examples include minigames and running errands.

The emphasis seems to me to be on the deviation from the core plot. By my reckoning, the N7 missions would all qualify easily, since the reward for those is in experience, credits, and EMS, but that's about it - there is just no connection at all to the main plot. There's even a dubious connection to the "find and stop Cerberus" plot.

Grissom Academy and the Ardat-Yakshi Monastery are similar. If you don't do them, you don't gain the things you'd gain if you did them, and you don't see the things you'd see if you did them.

And all the scanning quests qualify, of course. They're just a rubber stamp and a pile of credits for your exceptional ability to do scans as you run around.

Tuchanka: Bomb has a direct bearing on the resolution of the whole Tuchanka plotline, which is a part of the main plot. If you don't do it, Eve dies, the Krogan confederation is fractured, and Wrex's hold on power is more tenuous. Which of the other side quests has a similar result?

[Morlath]

AlanC9 wrote...

Morlath wrote...

By the definition of "diversion" it made sense in ME1 since you had no idea where Saren was. There was no race-against-time feeling to the story except for post Virmire and then the side-quests are locked out anyway. 

Well, you do have vague leads on where to start looking for Saren. A couple of the SQs could plausibly be ways to track him down too. Why is Shepard doing the others?

Hackett makes the comment about "I know you're a Spectre but the Alliance needs you on this". Shepard, regardless of if they are a Paragon or Renegade, are military through-and-through. The Citadel side-quests are paragon/xp optional but the space ones certainly fits into what a military person would do if their current/former commanding officer got in touch and asked.

[Morlath]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

This definition that it's "not required to complete the game," that's off TV Tropes, right? I don't feel beholden to use that particular definition.

Here are some I found elsewhere:

A quest given to the player that has no direct bearing on the main story/campaign of the game. Completion of a sidequest often results in the acquisition of money, items otherwise unavailable or unlocking another sidequest.

A quest in role-playing video games—including massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) and their predecessors, MUDs—is a task that a player-controlled character, "party" or group of characters may complete in order to gain a reward ... Many types of quests are referred to as "sidequests". These are specifically tasks which deviate from the main plot, and are often not required to complete the game. Examples include minigames and running errands.

Actually it's note. For me it's the general flavour of what a side-quest is rather than using TVTropes or Wiki itself. It is, by its very name, a quest that is aside to the main quest.

The emphasis seems to me to be on the deviation from the core plot. By my reckoning, the N7 missions would all qualify easily, since the reward for those is in experience, credits, and EMS, but that's about it - there is just no connection at all to the main plot. There's even a dubious connection to the "find and stop Cerberus" plot.

Grissom Academy and the Ardat-Yakshi Monastery are similar. If you don't do them, you don't gain the things you'd gain if you did them, and you don't see the things you'd see if you did them.

And all the scanning quests qualify, of course. They're just a rubber stamp and a pile of credits for your exceptional ability to do scans as you run around.

Tuchanka: Bomb has a direct bearing on the resolution of the whole Tuchanka plotline, which is a part of the main plot. If you don't do it, Eve dies, the Krogan confederation is fractured, and Wrex's hold on power is more tenuous. Which of the other side quests has a similar result?

Deviation but not complete removal from. I agree that a lot of RPGs have side quests that end up being totally removed from the main quest. I agree with you that the bomb has more impact than the majority of side quests in games but it is still not required to complete the main quest.

The bomb influences the main plot but doesn't stop it from happening. By the same token doing the smaller sidequests and giving people their artifacts/flags/whatever in ME3 adds to the EMS score which will eventually influence the ending of the game even though it doesn't impact the major plot points in between. It's all about degrees of influence of a side quest.

[Megaton_Hope]

Skipping Dekuuna: Elcor Extraction doesn't mean that a main character dies, or you lose part of the Elcor faction that you went on a main quest mission to collect, though.

[Morlath]

So your point is that anything which results in the death of a plot-invovled character and the resulting impacts shouldn't be considered a side quest even if you don't need either to complete the main focus of the game?

[Megaton_Hope]

I feel like you guys are being purposely obtuse, here.

[In Exile]

Morlath wrote...
By the definition of "diversion" it made sense in ME1 since you had no idea where Saren was. There was no race-against-time feeling to the story except for post Virmire and then the side-quests are locked out anyway. For ME3, no a diversional side-quest doesn't make sense and that's why the scanning is how you pick up these side-quests.

You totally knew were Saren might be - Noveria, Feros or Therum. Not in the Horsehead nebula on abandoned planet Klabor 33 in prefab hideout #229. If Shepard's plan was to literally search the entire galaxy planet by planet, Udina should have had him committed right then and there.

[Morlath]

In Exile wrote...

Morlath wrote...
By the definition of "diversion" it made sense in ME1 since you had no idea where Saren was. There was no race-against-time feeling to the story except for post Virmire and then the side-quests are locked out anyway. For ME3, no a diversional side-quest doesn't make sense and that's why the scanning is how you pick up these side-quests.

You totally knew were Saren might be - Noveria, Feros or Therum. Not in the Horsehead nebula on abandoned planet Klabor 33 in prefab hideout #229. If Shepard's plan was to literally search the entire galaxy planet by planet, Udina should have had him committed right then and there.

Except for the fact that Saren is on none of these planets and there is no mention of him being there at all during the game.

In fact the only two planets we know Saren gets on are Eden Prime and Virmire.

[Bleachrude]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

I feel like you guys are being purposely obtuse, here.

I can see both sides of the argument....

How about a side quest is any quest that if not completed doesn't STOP the game from continuing forward. You may not get the optimal solution at the end (see Geth consensus mission) but you can still finish the game.

In a way, the side quests are the keys to the secret ending for the game...many of the japanese games (especially RPGs) have side quests that don't stop you from killing the final boss but are necessary for the "true ending"

[In Exile]

Morlath wrote...
Except for the fact that Saren is on none of these planets and there is no mention of him being there at all during the game.

You don't know that when you go look for him. And even if that's true, searching for him planet by uninhabited planet is so stupid as to defy all possible reason or belief.

[spirosz]

AlanC9 wrote...
But this leaves me wondering if sidequests are worth having. In a plot like ME2's, sure. But in a plot like ME3's, or the plot ME1 pretended to have?

I think in terms of content and traditional role-playing games, side quests are a must, but - will this harm what Bioware was trying to express in terms of their story for ME3, or the trilogy in general?  Depends on how you view it. The fetch quests were lame, but in terms of the whole - Hey there is a whole Reaper war going on, I might not have time to go to each individual planet mindset - it could be done well if say, we get those "side quest items" on a priority mission planet, where there would be fewer fetch quests, but the stay more relevant to the story and what Shepard is doing at the time.  

I don't know, I think the biggest problem for Bioware, is the amount of complaints regardless of what they do - no sidequests = game lacking in content, from a certain perspective / or no boss fight at the end = too video gamey... they're always in a lose/lose situation.

[Morlath]

Bleachrude wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

I feel like you guys are being purposely obtuse, here.

I can see both sides of the argument....

How about a side quest is any quest that if not completed doesn't STOP the game from continuing forward. You may not get the optimal solution at the end (see Geth consensus mission) but you can still finish the game.

In a way, the side quests are the keys to the secret ending for the game...many of the japanese games (especially RPGs) have side quests that don't stop you from killing the final boss but are necessary for the "true ending"

This is the description I'm using and one I believe is the general consensus for what a side quest is.

[Bleachrude]

spirosz wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
But this leaves me wondering if sidequests are worth having. In a plot like ME2's, sure. But in a plot like ME3's, or the plot ME1 pretended to have?

I think in terms of content and traditional role-playing games, side quests are a must, but - will this harm what Bioware was trying to express in terms of their story for ME3, or the trilogy in general? 

Ok...I asked this before but I'll ask again. WHY must a videogame RPG have side-quests? They're not something that's inherent to the tabletop games which are the direct inspiration for videogame RPGs (I can see my tabletop DM looking at the party strangely if in the middle of the Temple of Elemental Evil, the party just decides to jet off to the city of doors in the planescape setting)

They seem like an excuse to just pad the game length and have on the jacket "this game is X hours long" as if that's an achievement in of itself

[spirosz]

Bleachrude wrote...


They seem like an excuse to just pad the game length and have on the jacket "this game is X hours long" as if that's an achievement in of itself

You just answered it - content and length.  I know a lot of people and I've done the same, but it depends on the game itself, that will complain about lack of length and the amount of content.  I do prefer quality over quanity, but again - it really depends on the game.  For example, not including ME3's fetch quests or the "N7 quests", those quests that weren't priority, but were on a priority planet, added a great element to fleshing out the context of said impact on the story Bioware was trying to create and put the player through and it helps adding that fleshing of the universe feel.  

That's the main selling point of side quests for me, fleshing out the universe the developer is trying to create or help develop NPCs, squadmates, whatever.  I prefer playing games over a long period of time, but thats just me.  It's not needed for everyone, but it helps for me.  

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Thanks for all the responses everyone. Keep posting them >D

[kleindropper]

It is quite clear to me that the only "finished" part of the game was the genophage storyline. In this area, they skillfully wove the major past decisions (Wrex, Mordin, Maelon) into truly divergent paths. I was quite surprised how Wrex treated my Shepard that destroyed Maelon's data, and if you double-cross Wrex it is very dramatic.

[nos_astra]

It's really hard to say what went wrong or when it went wrong.

I replayed ME3 a few weeks ago as a pragmatic, unsentimental character. I didn't get to the end because I'm to busy to play right now but I enjoyed it quite a bit. Maybe I like it even better than ME2.

It's just, as long as I don't think too hard and look too close and pretend this is some sort of legend that evolved and changed over time and got many things wrong, I can have some fun. But the moment I'm trying to pinpoint what's wrong it all falls apart. Still.

I've come to the conclusion that the sort of game I'd truly enjoy hasn't been invented yet or wouldn't find an audience.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 mai 2013 - 07:31 .

[AlanC9]

Morlath wrote...

Hackett makes the comment about "I know you're a Spectre but the Alliance needs you on this". Shepard, regardless of if they are a Paragon or Renegade, are military through-and-through. The Citadel side-quests are paragon/xp optional but the space ones certainly fits into what a military person would do if their current/former commanding officer got in touch and asked.

True, but he only gets those orders by going to a system he doesn't have any reason to go to, except for Luna.

[AlanC9]

spirosz wrote...
I think in terms of content and traditional role-playing games, side quests are a must, but - will this harm what Bioware was trying to express in terms of their story for ME3, or the trilogy in general?  Depends on how you view it. The fetch quests were lame, but in terms of the whole - Hey there is a whole Reaper war going on, I might not have time to go to each individual planet mindset - it could be done well if say, we get those "side quest items" on a priority mission planet, where there would be fewer fetch quests, but the stay more relevant to the story and what Shepard is doing at the time.  

Hmm..... the thing is, as it stands right now the fetch quest items come from stumbling onto stuff  during the scanning game and the side-missions. Put all of those items into the primary missions instead and nothing much changes.