153 réponses à ce sujet

[cJohnOne]

I haven't played Skyrim but of course I can like DA2 and not like Skyrim. Dragon Age has companions. I think you can have one mute follower in some of these games and they aren't full partners.

I also don't like shooters which is how some of these games play like.

Dragon Age comes from dice games like D&D.

I don't enjoy the gameplay of Skyrim or the Witcher games.

On the other hand I would like more exploration in DAIII:I.

[Bfler]

LPPrince wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Anybody else like all of these games, including if I may be so bold, the Witcher series?

Well, as far as Elder Scrolls/DA/Witcher goes, I've played Skyrim, Dragon Age Origins, Dragon Age 2, and The Witcher 2.

Out of them, I loved every single one- barring Dragon Age 2.

It's the same for me. 
Although Witcher 2 has lost a bit of it's appeal, because there aren't such places like Wyzima with all it's scum or the fishermen's village with the lady of the lake in Witcher 1.

Modifié par Bfler, 02 mai 2013 - 06:13 .

[Ridwan]

I Like Cats And wrote...

DA2 seemed to take more from Skyrim, as it was severely dumbed down then its predecessors.

BS! And you know it too.

[Dutchess]

Qistina wrote...
....and Bethesda contibue their attitude in Skyrim, it is actually Oblivion 2, Oblivion with enhanced graphic and some game mechanic changes and again the modders do their job in fixing everything FOR FREE...why want to release fix patch when the modders already fix the thing through mods?

Bethesda has released, what, nine patches for Skyrim? Patches that did fix bugs. They created more patches and at a higher speed than Bioware did, and both DAO and DA2 still have bugs that will never get fixed. And they didn't give players the means to fix things either, unlike Bethesda... Yes Skyrim had bugs. Plenty (I kinda liked the wacky gravity that occasionally resulted in horses flying by). But Bethesda did work to fix as many as possible. Saying that they didn't is simply unfair.

Bioware games are good, just recently they have been following Bethesda attitude but with little difference, the Bioware PR, writers, staffs are emotional and are reactionists, while Bethesda always keep cool and they can give their middle finger and get away with it

Funny, I really have the opposite experience. I have the feeling that Bioware has been giving the middle finger a lot more lately than Bethesda. The only thing where Bethesda messed up was with their recent unexpected announcement that they had stopped working on Skyrim, after months of silence and people expecting more DLC. They could have handled that better, but I still wouldn't compare it to Bioware's dismissiveness of fan's reactions and concerns. I don't recall mr Howard blogging about how toxic their forums are, even though I've heard they're pretty bad and that there's a lot of complaining. 
So, Bethesda released 9 patches, one of which added horse combat as new content for free, they created DLC that are pretty much expansions with dozens of hours of new content, and they provided a toolkit as mod support, whereas Bioware came with a vague "we shall see"  on the subject of a toolset for DA2 and eventually did not release anything, released 4 patches over a very long period of time, the fourth being uploaded at least a year after DA2's release, and DLC's that add four hours of content at most for a relatively high price (especially compared to Skyrim). Yeah, I think Bioware can still learn a thing or two from Bethesda.

cJohnOne wrote...

I haven't played Skyrim but of course I can like DA2 and not like Skyrim. Dragon Age has companions. I think you can have one mute follower in some of these games and they aren't full partners. 

Although they have less to say than any Bioware companion, your companions in Skyrim are not mute. They can comment on caves or ruins when exploring, when you're about to face a strong opponent, or talk about their life randomly (the last thing differs per companion; some have a lot more to say than others. Mjoll for instance won't shut up:P). The Dawnguard DLC added a companion that was actually getting close to the level of Bioware companions, with several opportunities to talk to her while advancing the main quest of the DLC in which she was involved.

[UnderlAlDyingSun]

Are you crazy? Yes bioware, YES. If you have the funding and an appropriate consult/development cycle MAKE THIS GAME SKYRIM! Everything feels so closed in, underdeveloped. I want to peer across the vast landscape and be able to explore at a whim!

[Boycott Bioware]

renjility wrote...
Bethesda has released, what, nine patches for Skyrim? Patches that did fix bugs. They created more patches and at a higher speed than Bioware did, and both DAO and DA2 still have bugs that will never get fixed. And they didn't give players the means to fix things either, unlike Bethesda... Yes Skyrim had bugs. Plenty (I kinda liked the wacky gravity that occasionally resulted in horses flying by). But Bethesda did work to fix as many as possible. Saying that they didn't is simply unfair.

Compare those fix patches from Bethesda with Unoficial Skyrim patch mod....Bethesda fix bugs that no one ever know or hear about, all the ridiculous bugs are fixed by modders

renjility wrote...

Although they have less to say than any Bioware companion, your companions in Skyrim are not mute. They can comment on caves or ruins when exploring, when you're about to face a strong opponent, or talk about their life randomly (the last thing differs per companion; some have a lot more to say than others. Mjoll for instance won't shut upsmilie). The Dawnguard DLC added a companion that was actually getting close to the level of Bioware companions, with several opportunities to talk to her while advancing the main quest of the DLC in which she was involved.

Approaching cave 1
Lydia ; ooooh it's a cave, wonder what inside?
Near boss area in cave 1
Lydia : I have a bad feeling about this

And so for cave 2, 3, 4, 5.....ect

"What is it my thane?" - when get "clicked" (interacted, i forgot cannot click but press E instead lol)
"of course my thane, i will protect you with my life" - when asked to follow
"I will be at home if you need me" - when dismissed
"I am swore to carry your burden" - when want to load her with trashes
"What are you doing?" - when friendly fired

You hear these for 100 hours

Modifié par Qistina, 02 mai 2013 - 12:21 .

[BounceDK]

Skyrim sucks. Poor excuse for an RPG.

[Boycott Bioware]

NPCs interaction in Skyrim is worse too, even worse than Oblivion...

You meet a guy in Whiterun forgot his name, he say
"i work for Belethor...."
Next day you walk pass him he say
"I work for Belethor..."
3rd day
"I work for Belethor..."
next week
"I work for Belethor..."
next month
"I work for Belethor..."

NPCs also interrupt important dialogue scene, as for example i am in the middle of discussion with important NPC regarding a quest, other NPCs walking nearby saying unrelated things and annoying....

Jarl : tell me what do you see
Guard : I saw a dragon flew near the tower...so i.......
Jarl son (walk nearby) : My father said i am too young to carry a sword, so i use fist
Jarl brother (passing by) : All these waiting is boring we should fight the Stormcloak
Jarl : My friend, i have to ask your help again, help the guards fight the dragon....

DA2 don't have this problem, the only problem is when there is combat happen near talking NPCs, that can be avoided in the next game, just don't copy Skyrim way

Edit : Ah yes....they say there are 70 voice actors or so...

Jarl : May the gods watch over you my friend
Alvor : May the gods watch over you my friend
Smith 1 : May the gods watch over you my friend
Smith 2 : May the gods watch over you my friend
NPC 1 : May the gods watch over you my friend
NPC 2 : May the gods watch over you my friend

They all are the same voice actor lolz

Modifié par Qistina, 02 mai 2013 - 12:53 .

[The Hierophant]

^That's still a few steps up from DA2's npcs, as a bulk of them can't be interacted with or talk, stand in the same position during the whole morning or night cycles, a dozen of them looking like they've been rendered with PSone era graphics, while no one reacts to a brawl or to a mage Hawke hurling around spells in broad daylight. Plus the npcs who do talk repeat the same lines, walk back and forth across the same scripted path with no other variations in their routine.

[Hazegurl]

I can't even finish Skyrim because it's so freaking boring once you hit level 20+. The world is huge but hollow, you can't cancel quests and can hardly turn them down, the npcs have zero personality, no real story or incentive to actually play the game. Marriage sucks and the only good thing about it is the money from their imaginary store. Follower npcs sucked and every single mission seemed to take place inside of some stupid set of ruins, caves, or caravans.

However, I would love a Dragon Age game with a large map, marriage options but NOT to every NPC in the game as you end up with "generic wife/husband # 45". I would much rather have a limited number of marriage partners that have a "soul" like in DAO and DA2. Characters that make me care about them. I would love to be able to buy a home and decorate it or build my own home, adopt a kid, Have a horse and so on. But overall, I wouldn't want Dragon age to lose what makes it a great experience. I care more about storyline and character development.

[Boycott Bioware]

The Hierophant wrote...
^That's still a few steps up from DA2's npcs, as a bulk of them can't be interacted with or talk, stand in the same position during the whole morning or night cycles, a dozen of them looking like they've been rendered with PSone era graphics, while no one reacts to a brawl or to a mage Hawke hurling around spells in broad daylight. Plus the npcs who do talk repeat the same lines, walk back and forth across the same scripted path with no other variations in their routine.

It is okay if non-important NPCs cannot be interact with, they are not important anyway, and we sure don't greet everyone in real life isn't it,. It is fine like in DA2 where NPCs talk, just make them "alive" and not just stay at one place 24/7, make them run away if there is combat nearby, it is enough. It is better that way than we can interact with NPCs but they only repeat the same line like in Skyrim, and they annoy you every seconds. In Skyrim, everybody want to talk with you but they have nothing to talk about and most of the time nonsensical.

Oblivion is actually better

Orc ; Hi
Elf : Hello
Orc : How are you today?
Elf : Nothing i want to talk about
Orc : Good bye

Argonian : Hello
Breton : Hello
Argonian : I saw a mudcrab the other day
Breton : Get away from me!
Argonian : Bye

[Agueybana]

Qistina wrote...

It is okay if non-important NPCs cannot be interact with, they are not important anyway, and we sure don't greet everyone in real life isn't it,. It is fine like in DA2 where NPCs talk, just make them "alive" and not just stay at one place 24/7, make them run away if there is combat nearby, it is enough. It is better that way than we can interact with NPCs but they only repeat the same line like in Skyrim, and they annoy you every seconds. In Skyrim, everybody want to talk with you but they have nothing to talk about and most of the time nonsensical.

I have to agree. If you walked up to a random stranger on the street they'd probably not respond, or do it in a positive way. Give the non-essential NPC's a few basic lines, like "Ummm, high?" or "I don't know you, get away." and have them walk off. We don't need to have conversation with everyone we meet. If they need something, they'll talk, or come looking for us. (Who goes looking for the Inquisition?) DA:I doesn't ned the whole AI baggage that TES/open world games have. A touch of life is all it needs.

[Boycott Bioware]

Yes, Skyrim is huge world but everything in it is a mess. Every NPCs you encounter want to talk with you with no reason and they talk nonsense.

At least in Oblivion there was disposition points that determine how NPCs will interact with you, and how NPCs interact with each other. But in Skyrim everybody have to say something to you even they don't know you and even at inappropriate time like i mentioned in previous post, Annoyingly they repeat the very same line and sometimes two or three NPcs talking to you at the same time. and interrupting important quest dialogues.

That is why i say it worse than Oblivion.

Another thing...NPCs in Skyrim are super brave, just imagine when dragon attack the townsfolk fighting with daggers...they all want to be Dragonborns maybe...not only dragons but any enemy, they will join the fight to the death lol. In Oblivion, only NPCs that have high disposition with you will help you in combat

I have mention in other thread, graphic is not everything, a game may have very good graphic but everything else is bad, maybe even worse than it's predecessors. It is all just illusion. Before we get awed with good graphic, take a look on other things first...the mechanic, the game flow, the story, user friendliness, the AI...Skyrim is worse on these

i. GUI is bad
ii. the game is not PC user friendly
iii. inventory bad - you have lists, and a lot of lists
iv. game-play bad - drinking potions have no animation and heal immediately (and you can drink 100 potions, eating soup and apply poison at the same time, because time-freezed), casting healing spell have animation and heal overtime
v. 3rd person bad - your PC is a mannequin, you turn left, the whole body turn left (it is like you turn a thing, no body movement), no pick item animation, no open door animation, no climbing animation, ect ect ect
vi. Ai bad - your party member will continuously walk through traps, ect ect ect
vii. skill level design bad - most skills are useless, example, high level Destruction spells are useless
viii. game balancing bad - there are level 15 enemies when you are at level 1 or 2
ix. ....ah so many things to mention....

Edit : Ah yes, dual wield cannot block, where the **** logic in that? They try to justify it in one of their book about combat you can found anywhere saying people who use two weapon are weak to withstand attacks, so they cannot block with two weapons lol...tell that to the Samurais or any swordsmen or any martial artists...

Modifié par Qistina, 02 mai 2013 - 06:14 .

[BouncyFrag]

The Hierophant wrote...

^That's still a few steps up from DA2's npcs, as a bulk of them can't be interacted with or talk, stand in the same position during the whole morning or night cycles, a dozen of them looking like they've been rendered with PSone era graphics, while no one reacts to a brawl or to a mage Hawke hurling around spells in broad daylight. Plus the npcs who do talk repeat the same lines, walk back and forth across the same scripted path with no other variations in their routine.

I'm pretty sure there are some folks still waiting to see the Viscount in DA2 saying the same things they did on your first visit to Kirkwall.

But to be fair, the NPCs in both games aren't that great. It became noticable in Skytim when the 3rd time I was made a Thane, all thee Jarls had the same voice and said the exact same thing. The same can be said for the generic Nordbro guy who tells you that you've been a good friend and that means something. The Dragonborn dlc was a bit of an improvement and the merc follower you could hire would say different things if you took him all over the mainland in Skyrim.

Modifié par BouncyFrag, 02 mai 2013 - 06:39 .

[Realmzmaster]

TES games are good for what they are trying to achieve which is an open sandbox type world for the gamer to explore. The main story is there to get the gamer into the game and add some structure. DA games are good for what they do which is to tell a story. Bioware does not have to look to Skyrim. Bioware can look to previous games that it has made like BG2 which told a story and had a world that could be explored.
Kingdoms of Amalur came somewhat close to trying to blend the two, but had it own faults.

[garrusfan1]

they were saying they were taking ideas from skyrim. that may mean a little bit of it but it doesn't mean it is gonna be skyrim. personaaly I would be furious if they made it like skyrim

[Fast Jimmy]

Agueybana wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It is okay if non-important NPCs cannot be interact with, they are not important anyway, and we sure don't greet everyone in real life isn't it,. It is fine like in DA2 where NPCs talk, just make them "alive" and not just stay at one place 24/7, make them run away if there is combat nearby, it is enough. It is better that way than we can interact with NPCs but they only repeat the same line like in Skyrim, and they annoy you every seconds. In Skyrim, everybody want to talk with you but they have nothing to talk about and most of the time nonsensical.

I have to agree. If you walked up to a random stranger on the street they'd probably not respond, or do it in a positive way. Give the non-essential NPC's a few basic lines, like "Ummm, high?" or "I don't know you, get away." and have them walk off. We don't need to have conversation with everyone we meet. If they need something, they'll talk, or come looking for us. (Who goes looking for the Inquisition?) DA:I doesn't ned the whole AI baggage that TES/open world games have. A touch of life is all it needs.

Yes, but how long in any game before you are a celebrity? 

Do you think Hawke should have been able to walk down the street without strangers saying "oh, there is the Champion!" or something? Sure, no one talks to a total stranger... but if Justin Bieber were to walk down the street, EVERYONE would pester him. In fantasy RPGs, the hero who slays dragons is their Justin Bieber. 

Skyrim does this, where if you are a member of the Dark Brotherhood, or are a mage, etc., their random comments will change based on these things. Its not exactly mind-blowing or anything, but a little reaction from regular people, even if they aren't important, is much needed.

[Agueybana]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Agueybana wrote...

Qistina wrote...

It is okay if non-important NPCs cannot be interact with, they are not important anyway, and we sure don't greet everyone in real life isn't it,. It is fine like in DA2 where NPCs talk, just make them "alive" and not just stay at one place 24/7, make them run away if there is combat nearby, it is enough. It is better that way than we can interact with NPCs but they only repeat the same line like in Skyrim, and they annoy you every seconds. In Skyrim, everybody want to talk with you but they have nothing to talk about and most of the time nonsensical.

I have to agree. If you walked up to a random stranger on the street they'd probably not respond, or do it in a positive way. Give the non-essential NPC's a few basic lines, like "Ummm, high?" or "I don't know you, get away." and have them walk off. We don't need to have conversation with everyone we meet. If they need something, they'll talk, or come looking for us. (Who goes looking for the Inquisition?) DA:I doesn't ned the whole AI baggage that TES/open world games have. A touch of life is all it needs.

Yes, but how long in any game before you are a celebrity? 

Do you think Hawke should have been able to walk down the street without strangers saying "oh, there is the Champion!" or something? Sure, no one talks to a total stranger... but if Justin Bieber were to walk down the street, EVERYONE would pester him. In fantasy RPGs, the hero who slays dragons is their Justin Bieber. 

Skyrim does this, where if you are a member of the Dark Brotherhood, or are a mage, etc., their random comments will change based on these things. Its not exactly mind-blowing or anything, but a little reaction from regular people, even if they aren't important, is much needed.

There's still gonna be some strangers who don't know you. They might know of you, but not know you on sight immediately.

How the inquisition will change this will be an interesting bit. It'd be neat to have folks bolt if you aproach them, or the first time they meet you are just dumbstruck by who or what you are.

[The Hierophant]

@Qistina & BouncyFrag - good points. I can't deny that the repetitive voices got annoying when plot important npcs shared the same VA, along with their suicidal tendency to attack Vampire Lords and Dragons with an iron knife. Even with Skyrm's issues Bio's npcs could still benefit from being programmed to actively transition between multiple animations, and comment or react to my actions or wardrobe. (E.g a Templar npc makes a comment about the Inquisitor wearing mage robes as they walk by)

Modifié par The Hierophant, 02 mai 2013 - 08:08 .

[BouncyFrag]

The Hierophant wrote...

@Qistina & BouncyFrag - good points. I can't deny that the repetitive voices got annoying when plot important npcs shared the same VA, along with their suicidal tendency to attack Vampire Lords and Dragons with an iron knife. Even with Skyrm's issues Bio's npcs could still benefit from being programmed to actively transition between multiple animations, and comment or react to my actions or wardrobe. (E.g a Templar npc makes a comment about the Inquisitor wearing mage robes as they walk by)

DA2's 10 year span hurt the game becuase there was hardly any of your bolded point.  Skyrim also has the same problem in that the world is static. Even after you finish the main quest, nothing seems to change other than random comments from guards. Skyrims most aggregious example of this is if you join the Stormcloaks after completing the Dark Brotherhood as there is no reaction to what you did. I'm not going to spoil it but it is a massive omission given who the Stormcloaks are fighting against.  For me, a game world that actively reacts to your actions, both large and small, can make a good game incredible. Its things like this that I hope becomes more common place in next-gen games.

Edit: Question: are there PC mods for Skyrim that actually do this? Anytime I spend reading up on Elder Scroll mods, I take one step closer to getting a good gaming PC built.

Modifié par BouncyFrag, 02 mai 2013 - 08:32 .

[The Hierophant]

True about the Emperor's death as that should of been a Stormcloak's wet dream come true while demoralizing or enraging the Legion, but if you're a Imperial supporter the MQ would be too weird too complete as the Legion should be gunning for you 24/7. It's already bad enough that the omniscient guards comment on you being an assassin, it's a miracle that they didn't know you killed Titus.

I only use mods like dynamic lighting, real flowing water, UI, texture, and race/face lifts. You should check with the Skyrim thread in Off Topic as i'm a neanderthal compared to it's regulars in terms of mod knowledge.

[Joy Divison]

Qistina wrote...

NPCs interaction in Skyrim is worse too, even worse than Oblivion...

You meet a guy in Whiterun forgot his name, he say
"i work for Belethor...."
Next day you walk pass him he say
"I work for Belethor..."
3rd day
"I work for Belethor..."
next week
"I work for Belethor..."
next month
"I work for Belethor..."

NPCs also interrupt important dialogue scene, as for example i am in the middle of discussion with important NPC regarding a quest, other NPCs walking nearby saying unrelated things and annoying....

Jarl : tell me what do you see
Guard : I saw a dragon flew near the tower...so i.......
Jarl son (walk nearby) : My father said i am too young to carry a sword, so i use fist
Jarl brother (passing by) : All these waiting is boring we should fight the Stormcloak
Jarl : My friend, i have to ask your help again, help the guards fight the dragon....

DA2 don't have this problem, the only problem is when there is combat happen near talking NPCs, that can be avoided in the next game, just don't copy Skyrim way

Edit : Ah yes....they say there are 70 voice actors or so...

Jarl : May the gods watch over you my friend
Alvor : May the gods watch over you my friend
Smith 1 : May the gods watch over you my friend
Smith 2 : May the gods watch over you my friend
NPC 1 : May the gods watch over you my friend
NPC 2 : May the gods watch over you my friend

They all are the same voice actor lolz

OK, someone's got to stop you.

Your brilliance in identifying a fundamental limitation of computer generated characters that have pre-programed scripted responses is astounding.  How about not pretending this is some peculiar flaw in Skyrim?  Or did you not notice for 10 game years in DA2 everytime you walked into the Viscount's Keep you heard that same damn lady who has been waiting for the Viscount to meet her?

Your claim that DA2 does not have this problem (patently false as noted above) is utterly nonsensical because DA2's "solution" is to make NPCs holograms that you can literally walk through or stand in the same place for 10 years, doing nothing, saying nothing, and contributing nothing.  I'll live through the horror of repetitive responses if it means I can actually interact with NPCs and having them actually recognize and acknowledge what I did in the game.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 03 mai 2013 - 04:15 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Joy Divison wrote...
Your brilliance in identifying a fundamental limitation of computer generated characters that have pre-programed scripted responses is astounding. How about not pretending this is some peculiar flaw in Skyrim? Or did you not notice for 10 game years in DA2 everytime you walked into the Viscount's Keep you heard that same damn lady who has been waiting for the Viscount to meet her?

Your claim that DA2 does not have this problem (patently false as noted
above) is utterly nonsensical because DA2's "solution" is to make NPCs
holograms that you can literally walk through or stand in the same place
for 10 years, doing nothing, saying nothing, and contributing nothing. 
I'll live through the horror of repetitive responses if it means I can
actually interact with NPCs and having them actually recognize and
acknowledge what I did in the game.

I am referring to walking by NPCs interrupting important plot dialogues between PC and NPCs

Modifié par Qistina, 03 mai 2013 - 05:33 .

[I Like Cats And]

M25105 wrote...

I Like Cats And wrote...

DA2 seemed to take more from Skyrim, as it was severely dumbed down then its predecessors.

BS! And you know it too.

How is it BS in any shape or form?