35 réponses à ce sujet

[ZelaineGW]

And not BioWare assumed motive, but player chosen motives.

For example I really wanted to save the Rachni queen for renegade reasons (believing she would terrorize the universe, not buying the song bit).

I also wanted to save the council for renegade reasons (now they owe me their lives and I can use that as leverage to manipulate their races and the council)

All you would have to do is add more options in the dialog box.

[DracoFulcrum]

Charm or Intimidate could work for that, the red or blue choices.

[ToshiStation38]

On the subject of Rachni, I always wished there was a paragon-ish way of not letting her go, sort of a "Sorry, but I can't let you live."

[creininger]

Psh, I'm 100% renegade and saved the rachni queen. My reason was simple: You owe me one, insect. Now gimme some of those acid spit shooting soldiers that 1 shot me. Thxbai.



Back on topic, its possible to be intimidating and Paragon or charming and renegade. I think what Zel is looking for are dialogue options that are only available to Paragon and Renegade exclusively. It would be interesting to see them, and make the game feel a bit more authentic. The problem is, the game will come out in 2 weeks. Don't hope for a change because they likely didn't add anything like that : /

[izmirtheastarach]

There should be like 50 dialogue options. Better yet, you should be able to type in what you want to say to the character.



Alas, no. The whole point of the Paragon/Renedage system is to make you think hard about your choices.

[Sylvius the Mad]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

There should be like 50 dialogue options. Better yet, you should be able to type in what you want to say to the character.

Alas, no. The whole point of the Paragon/Renedage system is to make you think hard about your choices.

The whole point of the paragon/renegade system was to reduce your choices such that they could voice them and act them out.

The cinematic presentation and voiced PC continue the be the worst thing about Mass Effect, largely because they are the reason we're saddled with that awful, awful dialogue wheel that ties everything to the paragon/renegade system.

I don't want the game to judge my character's motives, because if I'm genuinely roleplaying then the game CAN'T KNOW my character's motives.

Dragon Age has spoiled me.  Alignment meters suck.

[DracoFulcrum]

If you use the glitch you can bump both sides to max and get both red and blue options.

[izmirtheastarach]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The
cinematic presentation and voiced PC continue the be the worst thing
about Mass Effect, largely because they are the reason we're saddled
with that awful, awful dialogue wheel that ties everything to the
paragon/renegade system.

I don't want the game to judge my
character's motives, because if I'm genuinely roleplaying then the game
CAN'T KNOW my character's motives.

Dragon Age has spoiled me.  Alignment meters suck.

Personal preference, really. You are obviously more of an RPG purist. I could go either way. I loved both games, and I enjoy both systems.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 16 janvier 2010 - 06:13 .

[Nimander]

I like the dialogue wheel. While it's certainly true that due to the voice overs, it limits options a bit, it's still cool. It's just a different flavor than other RPGs.

[Lord Atlia]

I prefer the dialog wheel myself as it lets me know what are the paragon and renegade options. In DA:O I found it much more difficult to distinguish ambiguities. For example *slight spoiler* there is a conversation option with Morrigan where the warden could say "I feel sorry for the templars," I thought it was suppose to be sarcastic but it was genuine sympathy and I said and got a reaction I did not want.

[izmirtheastarach]

Lord Atlia wrote...

I prefer the dialog wheel myself as it lets me know what are the paragon and renegade options. In DA:O I found it much more difficult to distinguish ambiguities. For example *slight spoiler* there is a conversation option with Morrigan where the warden could say "I feel sorry for the templars," I thought it was suppose to be sarcastic but it was genuine sympathy and I said and got a reaction I did not want.

It's much more of a grey system, which works if you are interested in playing grey. Myself, I play as Paragon as a game will let me, so the system doesn't really matter as much.

[InvaderErl]

I'm used to the DA format and prefer it. Sometimes I would just like to know what Shep is going to say. Case in point: You Turian Bastard during the Council hearing turns into I'll Kill You the next time we meet. Jeez, Shep, might want to tone it down as far as making death threats in front of government officials go.  It'd be nice if there was a button that could display a preview of his dialogue.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 16 janvier 2010 - 08:08 .

[Gaddmeister]

ZelaineGW wrote...

And not BioWare assumed motive, but player chosen motives.

For example I really wanted to save the Rachni queen for renegade reasons (believing she would terrorize the universe, not buying the song bit).

I also wanted to save the council for renegade reasons (now they owe me their lives and I can use that as leverage to manipulate their races and the council)

All you would have to do is add more options in the dialog box.

But if I've understood the whole paragon/renegade thing it's not so much about motives, but rather how Shepard is viewed by people in the galaxy. Thus regardless of the motives releasing the Rachni queen is a sign of mercy and forgiveness.

But there is at least one moment in the game (which I can think of now) that lets you express your rather evil agenda, much to the dismay of a certain people around you. And there's another situation where you can choose not to help a certain stuck-up character and instead make things worse just to mention afterwards that you did it because you don't like them. And I guess there are several more, but only my two favourites come to mind right now.

Modifié par Gaddmeister, 16 janvier 2010 - 09:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


I don't want the game to judge my character's motives, because if I'm genuinely roleplaying then the game CAN'T KNOW my character's motives.

Dragon Age has spoiled me.  Alignment meters suck.

The meter would be fine if BioWare stuck with the original description of Paragon and Renegade, one does things 'by the book' while the other uses 'any means necessary.' Then motives wouldn't factor into it.

I'd have no problem with an alignment system if it wasn't the same saintly paladin vs heartless butcher paradigm over and over again.

SkullandBonesmember wrote...
Somebody made a point in their blog back at the end of 08 or early 09 about how most sensible people can't relate to a silent protagonist.

That's why Dragon Age was a huge success, because no one could relate to their PCs.

People have related to silent protagonists since the invention of the written word.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 janvier 2010 - 09:28 .

[Gaddmeister]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The meter would be fine if BioWare stuck with the original description of Paragon and Renegade, one does things 'by the book' while the other uses 'any means necessary.' Then motives wouldn't factor into it.

This I would have approved of... very much.

[Dellingr]

Wouldn't say a step backwards. The way DA:O does things and the way ME does things in that regard are, I'd argue, equally valid systems but they do do things differently and people's milage will always vary on this sort of thing, I'm personally a fan of both

[Rm80]

I have always wonder why there is no option like: - Im not going to decide yours, nor the rachni futrue so I will just keep you here in your little prision and send some one over from the council or something to decide.....

[Vaulin Faust]

Dellingr wrote...

Wouldn't say a step backwards. The way DA:O does things and the way ME does things in that regard are, I'd argue, equally valid systems but they do do things differently and people's milage will always vary on this sort of thing, I'm personally a fan of both

As someone already mentioned, limiting dialogue choices to a Paragon, Neutral, and Renegade choices tap into that 5th dimension of possibility in a more profound way than Dragon age does. Also given the length of the respective games( ME1 took me about 24, Dragon age took me about 80), the paths for dragon age don't necessarily have some huge arching result beyond a short paragraph at the end of the game. 

To be honest if you compare mass effect 2's prospective systems and Dragon age, Mass effect 2 is a better roleplaying game. The reason for this is because  your character feels more eloquently molded into what you want them to be in a more meaningful and tangible manner than Dragon does. How people interact and how things open up & close because of your choices seems more immediate. Interupt system is going to be huge, as well as the loyalty system.

 I didn't really feel that I'd made the wrong choice with Harrowmond till I read what happens at the very end of the game. Dragon age in that respect is sloppy, relying on text and after the fact bits that take place much later in the narative to explain the consequences of some of your bigger choices. Obviously you know if you save the anvil of the void, you get Golems, but beyond that you don't know till again the little paragraph at the end of the game. 

Mass effect for me seems to keep me immersed in a way Dragon age can't, given the scope of dialogue choices which ultimately are moot and have no real impact on the narrative. Mass effect's dialogue choices have tangible consequences that you see take effect rather quickly, and more effects in a more delayed manner. 

This is my opinion and how I personally feel having played the two games.

[Jonp382]

  

SkullandBonesmember wrote...
You can't possibly be serious. I just pointed out over in the Mass Effect forums that dialogue choices PLUS Shepard not being a silent protagonist is one of if not THE best part of Mass Effect.

Dialog choices are not possible, due to the wheel which doesn't even present dialog to the player.

Shepard's acting is a negative. As a 'role-playing game', my character should be able to make meaningful decisions. You may be able to determine final results much of the time, but you can't do any actual acting, and thus you can't have your own agenda.

Have you ever played Fallout 3? Somebody made a point in their blog back at the end of 08 or early 09 about how most sensible people can't relate to a silent protagonist.

As long as one can understand a character, there's no reason why any individual shouldn't be able to become emotionally attached to it. Anyways BioWare makes role-playing games, not movies. If a player is uninterested in his or her character, it is either the player at fault or the game. In DA:O it would be the player's fault. In Mass Effect it is the game.

What about Fable or Fable 2? Oh yeah, giving a thumbs up is really captivating!

I feel Fable could use better gameplay.

With all honesty could you really tell me if your character in DAO died it would provoke some kind of emotional reaction from you?

DA:O is a role-playing game, not an art game like Braid. It's perfectly possible for somebody to get a message or become emotionally involved in any of BioWare's RPG games, yes. Whether or not this happens depends on the player's past experiences and how he/she plays.

[TSamee]

creininger wrote...

Back on topic, its possible to be intimidating and Paragon or charming and renegade. I think what Zel is looking for are dialogue options that are only available to Paragon and Renegade exclusively. It would be interesting to see them, and make the game feel a bit more authentic. The problem is, the game will come out in 2 weeks. Don't hope for a change because they likely didn't add anything like that : /

News! Charm and intimidate no longer exist, they feed directly into Paragon/Renegade. I'd have liked it a bit more if the intimidate option didn't always make you the bad guy, but Paragon/Renegade is more Idealist/Pragmatist in my opinion, so I guess a straight-up pragmatist wouldn't have problems with indimidation. It does leave me more points to spend in the "blow **** up" trees though, so I'm not exactly complaining.

Still, this does mean that playing a grey-area character has no persuasion benefits (I think, haven't hear of any benefits it nets you), and that you can't get the jump on situations early on by spamming charm/indimidate once you level up.

[Stoko981]

Hoping that this doesn't qualify as a slight ME1 spoiler, during a conversation with Garrus there was an option to say "You were right" with regards to shooting down a hostile ship with hostages. Now, I play Paragon, but I did believe he was right. The guy holding the hostages sounded severely dangerous, he couldn't be allowed to get away, and his hostages would only be killed in his experiments anyway. In that situation, where the hostages' lives were basically forfeit no matter what, I'd say Garrus was right. But on selecting that option, my Shepard says "Yeah, you can't let a few hostages get in the way of taking down a guy like that". Just in general, in a really off-hand tone of voice. Totally out of character for the playthrough I was doing.



TL;DR - I agree with whoever said that previewing the dialogue an option gives would be much easier.