201 réponses à ce sujet

[AldenKrimhild]

I for one would love to see Justice again, without Anders. We didt get a lot of him in DA2 and we know Anders was the one responsible for Justice becoming more like vengeance.

[Boycott Bioware]

hhh89 wrote...
If this was true, Bioware wouldn't have let us kill him, and said that Anders will remain dead. They're not going to make Anders the great leader of the mages, or a new Andraste, when in a lot of playthroughs he's dead. Vengeance couldn't substitute him.
Regardless, you have the opinion that all the mages would want Anders at their leader. I'm not so sure about that.

Bioware let us kill Leliana but she's alive

If Anders dead killed by Hawke, isn't that the same like Andraste dead betrayed by Maferath?

It is all about versions of a story and what people want to believe about their hero. Some consider Andraste a hero, some don't, some consider her a myth, some know about Andraste but not Andrasterian (such as Dalish and Dwarves), Tevinter themselves have their own Chantry

And so Anders, there will be Mages consider him a hero, some maybe not, and maybe some non-Mages consider him a hero, some maybe not...but in the future, hundreds years later, where the story changed, exaggerated, becoming myth and legend, maybe there will cults, maybe some will consider him a Saint, a prophet, a Messiah, a Savior...while the opposite is also maybe true

[Dave of Canada]

Unlike Leliana, Gaider came in and said Anders is dead if you killed him.

There's a huge difference between giving the player a choice to kill Anders and killing Leliana as a result of another choice.

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...


Bioware let us kill Leliana but she's alive

If Anders dead killed by Hawke, isn't that the same like Andraste dead betrayed by Maferath?

It is all about versions of a story and what people want to believe about their hero. Some consider Andraste a hero, some don't, some consider her a myth, some know about Andraste but not Andrasterian (such as Dalish and Dwarves), Tevinter themselves have their own Chantry

And so Anders, there will be Mages consider him a hero, some maybe not, and maybe some non-Mages consider him a hero, some maybe not...but in the future, hundreds years later, where the story changed, exaggerated, becoming myth and legend, maybe there will cults, maybe some will consider him a Saint, a prophet, a Messiah, a Savior...while the opposite is also maybe true

But Bioware explicitely said some months ago, that Anders will remain dead, for the very problem caused by Leliana's resurrection.
I think it could be the contrary, Anders betrayed Hawke's trust, depending on Hawke's mindset.
Regardless, if Anders is rival, he asked himself to be killed because he can't control Vengeance; if friend, he understands if Hawke has to kill him: he said that the people that died in the Chantry deserved justice. Either way, Hawke didn't betray Anders. It's completely different from Andraste and Maferath.
About the last part of your post, I agree, Anders, some centuries later, will be considered either a saviour, a prophet, or an anti-messiah (by those who hate and fear him). But that it's centuries later.
 On present time, the mages would split apart about Anders, and not necessarily because of his actions, but because he's similar to an abomination.

[Boycott Bioware]

But there is another version of Maferath, like i mentioned before, remember the quest in DA:O?

Maferath betrayal is Chantry version. Whatever relationship between Hawke and Anders is Varric version.

You may consider killing Anders is "your choice" but the fact is it is not, it is "Varric Story", meaning it is just "one of the version" (yeah, that is the major flaw of DA2)

[Goneaviking]

Once again.

Anders isn't the leader of a movement. Never was.

He was a champion of the lowest of the low in Kirkwall while he healed them in secret, and they were certainly willing to protect him but he wasn't their leader. He didn't invite them into his little scheme to blow up the Chantry and murder Elthina.

Does anyone even know he was involved?

Modifié par Goneaviking, 04 mai 2013 - 11:34 .

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...

But there is another version of Maferath, like i mentioned before, remember the quest in DA:O?

Maferath betrayal is Chantry version. Whatever relationship between Hawke and Anders is Varric version.

You may consider killing Anders is "your choice" but the fact is it is not, it is "Varric Story", meaning it is just "one of the version" (yeah, that is the major flaw of DA2)

What quest? The Urn of Sacred Ashes? It didn't contradict what I said. He was jealous about the Maker and betrayed Andraste. Hawke wasn't jealous of Anders, and didn't betray him.
And no, what we saw in DA2 isn't Varric version, unless Bioware said directly that Varric changes the events. We already know that there are different stories of Hawke (Cassandra believes that all what happened was his plan), but unless we got some confirmation that Varric is lying, what he said in DA2 is the truth, because we, the players, decided what to choose.
You can believe all you want that Varric isn't telling the truth to fit whatever headcanon you want, but you can't say that this is objectively true. Unless Bioware says otherwise, DA2 and Varric told the real story of Hawke.

[The Elder King]

Goneaviking wrote...

Once again.

Anders isn't the leader of a movement. Never was.

He was a champion of the lowest of the low in Kirkwall while he healed them in secret, and they were certainly willing to protect him but he wasn't their leader. He didn't invite them into his little scheme to blow up the Chantry and murder Elthina.

Does anyone even know he was involved?

Cassandra knew, though she believes that he was following Hawke's order. I believe that this is what the Seekers believed, because the templars consider Hawke their champion and the mages consider him a tyrant, if you sided with Meredith. If people believed that Hawke was behind Anders, the templars wouldn't support him,

[Renmiri1]

Goneaviking wrote...

As far as Anders continue relevance post-bombing. He has none.

His only powerbase is the affection he enjoyed from the lowest classes as the benevolent healer, which could very well dry up if it ever comes to light that he was behind the murder of Elthina.

The various factions already have their charismatic firebrands, they won't be looking for an abomination to take over and tell them who to kill and why just because he was the one to put flame to powderkeg. 

History is written by the winners. Before Israel was established there were some radical zionists that did terrorist acts for the cause of a jewish state.

The same terrorists were later top men in IDF (Israeli Defense Force) and Israeli politics, and are hailed as heroes. Google  Menachem Begin 

Menachem Begin was an Israeli politician, founder of Likud and the sixth Prime Minister of the State of Israel. Before independence, he was the leader of the Zionist militant group Irgun, the Revisionist breakaway from the larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah. He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency. As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Palestine.

One man's terrorist is another man's "freedom fighter" . It depends on who gets to write the history books.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 04 mai 2013 - 05:36 .

[Renmiri1]

9/11 polarized the topic of terrorism. I don't think an entire Star Trek series based on ex-terrorists (Bjorans) having a heroine that was part of the resistance confessing to killing non-combatant Kardassians for political reasons would be possible today.

Today Gul Dukat would be more of a hero than Major Kira. Yet Anders and Kira are quite similar in their convictions and actions.

[Boycott Bioware]

hhh89 wrote...
You can believe all you want that Varric isn't telling the truth to fit whatever headcanon you want, but you can't say that this is objectively true. Unless Bioware says otherwise, DA2 and Varric told the real story of Hawke.

Versions are not about truth or lies, it is about how the narrator perceive things and how the story being translated/interpreted by the narrator based on their perception about things happen

Look at historical figures, real ones, as for example Jesus. We all know basic story about Jesus, about who is Jesus, his life and so on. But his story is taken from numerous Gospels written by numerous peoples. Each Gospels are not 100% similar to each other, it is because the Gospels are written based on the writer perception of Jesus, how the writers perceive Jesus. The base story remain with some differences. Only 5 Gospels taken as "canon", there are hundreds more.....that is why it is called "Gospel As According To..."

Similar here with Varric, he's a dwarf from Orzamar, hanging around at the place he should not be, being with peoples are stranger to his own cultural background, involve in Mages and Templar conflict, seeing demons abominations and such things...DA2 story is based on Varric perceptions about things, we cannot deny that. (Edit : then look also on his relationship with the characters, he like them, hate them, all these influence his story)

As for example, let say you are stranded in some country, you cannot go home, then you involved in that country problems, you see what the people do, all these things are strange to you because it is not your culture...when you manage to get out from the country and going home you decide to tell your family and friends about what happen...your story is influenced by your own perception about things you see, your sentiment, and your belief...let say you saw someone executing a person because of something, the way you tell people about that person is influenced by your perception about that person, you will compare with your own morality, culture, social background and belief (edit : and also your own thought)

Edit : This makes me remember Tom Cruise "The Last Samurai" and Antonio Banderas "The 13th Warrior"

Modifié par Qistina, 04 mai 2013 - 06:37 .

[The Hierophant]

Until David Gaider states that Varric wasn't telling the whole truth, you can't use the assumption of him lying as a dismissal of events or character portrayals you don't like as it requires evidence/proof.

[Boycott Bioware]

As simple example...let say i am being interrogated by CIA who force me to tell about a terrorist named Orsino Ben Loghain or something, so i tell them about Orsino Ben Loghain, about his life, about what he's doing, about his friends...what i am telling them is based on my own perception about Orsino Ben Laoghain...maybe i take him as a hero so my story is a "heroic version of Orsino Ben Loghain"...or maybe i hate orsino Ben Loghain, so my story "bad side version of Orsino Ben Loghain"...

let say, i am telling about Orsino Ben Loghain bombing Justin Beiber toilet...if i take him a hero, i will tell how majestic the event is, how Orsino Ben Loghain is the savior of mankind blowing up the toilet....but if i hate and despise him, i will tell how awful the event is and how stupid Orsino Ben Loghain really is

The way my story goes cannot escape bias...the way i describe Orsino Ben Loghain can be biased

The way Varric describe all the characters is influenced by his own perception about them

[Lulupab]

Still I want Anders. Let those who killed him never see him again, they don't deserve him anyway. Give them Finn give us Anders, as supportive mage companion. If not companion then a major role.

Modifié par Rassler, 04 mai 2013 - 07:20 .

[The Hierophant]

Qistina wrote...

The way Varric describe all the characters is influenced by his own perception about them

You can't dismiss eye witness testimony with just that. Your post relies on too many anecdotes, and assumptions without evidence to support it, making it baseless speculation or conjecture. If you are going to call into question Varric's recounting of the events you'll need evidence or facts that proves he benefits from being deceitful, or has crappy memorization skills.

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...



Versions are not about truth or lies, it is about how the narrator perceive things and how the story being translated/interpreted by the narrator based on their perception about things happen

Look at historical figures, real ones, as for example Jesus. We all know basic story about Jesus, about who is Jesus, his life and so on. But his story is taken from numerous Gospels written by numerous peoples. Each Gospels are not 100% similar to each other, it is because the Gospels are written based on the writer perception of Jesus, how the writers perceive Jesus. The base story remain with some differences. Only 5 Gospels taken as "canon", there are hundreds more.....that is why it is called "Gospel As According To..."

Similar here with Varric, he's a dwarf from Orzamar, hanging around at the place he should not be, being with peoples are stranger to his own cultural background, involve in Mages and Templar conflict, seeing demons abominations and such things...DA2 story is based on Varric perceptions about things, we cannot deny that. (Edit : then look also on his relationship with the characters, he like them, hate them, all these influence his story)

As for example, let say you are stranded in some country, you cannot go home, then you involved in that country problems, you see what the people do, all these things are strange to you because it is not your culture...when you manage to get out from the country and going home you decide to tell your family and friends about what happen...your story is influenced by your own perception about things you see, your sentiment, and your belief...let say you saw someone executing a person because of something, the way you tell people about that person is influenced by your perception about that person, you will compare with your own morality, culture, social background and belief (edit : and also your own thought)

Edit : This makes me remember Tom Cruise "The Last Samurai" and Antonio Banderas "The 13th Warrior"

The Hierophant already responded to you, and I agree with what he said.
Regardless, your comparing Jesus (or any old historical characters or events) with a videogame? DA2's story is created by Bioware. Bioware's version of the event is the truth unless the writers themselves says otherwise or change the events. DA2 allows more freedom on creating an headcanon than DAO, but that's it. With Varric Bioware tried a different approach in storytelling, they didn't want to make only a version of Hawke's story.
Unless Bioware changed something and say that it's because DA2 was only Varric's version, the events are set in stone. You could compare DA2 to whatever historical events or example about events that appare differenly based on people's perspective, that isn't going to change the fact that DA2 is already a fictional story created by writers, which is set in stone unless Gaider and his crew said otherwise.

[Boycott Bioware]

You can't dismiss eye witness testimony with just that. Your post relies on too many anecdotes, and assumptions without evidence to support it, making it baseless speculation or conjecture. If you are going to call into question Varric's recounting of the events you'll need evidence or facts that proves he benefits from being deceitful, or has crappy memorization skills.

Varric is not the eye witness of every events. first of he tell about how Hake end up in Kirkwal in the intro...he's not there...when he mention Flemeth in which it is doubtful Flemeth is really there, Cassandra mock him...

Then he say "You don't mind i made up everything as i go?", Cassandra says "Not at all"

Unless you bring Varric everywhere you go, Varric IS NOT the eye witness....the reason why he's locked in the Deep Road quest is because of that, it means out of all things only the Deep Road event he's really there with Hawke, and that event is the only reliable if he's not exaggerate it out of all things

[Renmiri1]

Rassler wrote...

Still I want Anders. Let those who killed him never see him again, they don't deserve him anyway. Give them Finn give us Anders, as supportive mage companion. If not companion then a major role.

IKR ?

Never saw a single Star Trek DS9 fan wanting to kill Major Kira or Ensign Ro. Yet both of them blew up people, continuously, for years, because those Kardassians were bloody bastards. Kardassians weren't cuddly and  good looking like Elthina and Templars but they basically did the same thing.

There were innocent, nice Kardassians but they never did anything to stop their bloody torturing murdering mates. Same with Elthina and most Templars who stood by while Meredith and Alric did the unthinkable.

I doubt a show like that could work after 9/11 but the fact remains that the issues it dealt are very much like the issues DA deal with and the characters on both are not plain saints or plain demons.

[Monica21]

Renmiri1 wrote...
I doubt a show like that could work after 9/11 but the fact remains that the issues it dealt are very much like the issues DA deal with and the characters on both are not plain saints or plain demons.

Please stop referencing 9/11. If you honestly believe that's when terrorism became polarizing then you were born on 9/10. When I grew up the English didn't fear Al-Quada blowing up buses, but the IRA blowing up a pub. Terrorists still hijacked planes or blew them up over Scotland. One American blew up an American building in a startlingly cruel act of domestic terrorism. So again, as terrible as 9/11 was, please stop using it as your touchstone for terrorist events and how people feel in general about terrorism.

[The Elder King]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Still I want Anders. Let those who killed him never see him again, they don't deserve him anyway. Give them Finn give us Anders, as supportive mage companion. If not companion then a major role.

IKR ?

Never saw a single Star Trek DS9 fan wanting to kill Major Kira or Ensign Ro. Yet both of them blew up people, continuously, for years, because those Kardassians were bloody bastards. Kardassians weren't cuddly and  good looking like Elthina and Templars but they basically did the same thing.

There were innocent, nice Kardassians but they never did anything to stop their bloody torturing murdering mates. Same with Elthina and most Templars who stood by while Meredith and Alric did the unthinkable.

I doubt a show like that could work after 9/11 but the fact remains that the issues it dealt are very much like the issues DA deal with and the characters on both are not plain saints or plain demons.

And you know that the people who hate Anders here are fan of Star Trek, or fan of those two characters? I'm not a ST fan, but from what you said, I wouldn't like that much those characters, if they blew up innocent Kardassians. I might say that they're well-developed characters, and maybe badass characters (if they are), but I doubt I'll like them.
As for Anders, I  personally mainly blame him for the merge with Vengeance. I couldn't blame him for the Chantry's bombing, since I convinced him to stop and Justice decided that after all Anders didn't need his free will. .
But I don't hate him or anything. The decision on his life is still pending.
Regardless, I doubt that Anders's will have a major role in the war. I still thinks that his presence could create a fracture in the mages (considering the fact that mages aren't that united, which is their major weakness in comparison of the rogue Templars, who seems intented to kill all mages).
Though as long as we have a worthy substitute, I wouldn't actually mind Anders having a major role in the game. It would certainly incentivate me of importing different playthroughs of DA2.

Modifié par hhh89, 04 mai 2013 - 08:50 .

[Lulupab]

It seems most people don't know about this:

If you raise Anders's friendship it will be known that Anders and Justice are of one mind and Anders have free will.

If you raise Ander's rivalry he says that justice is taking away his free will.

So it depends on hawke really. Also notice the fact that Ander's friendship bonus is to his damage (10% to all damage) meaning when you befriend Anders it means you accept him as he is and support his actions thus you support his vengeance. BUT if you raise his rivalry his healing power will become better meaning you have no love for justice and want Anders as his old self, a healer.

There are many ways for Anders to make an appearance. Maybe joinig the hero in DA3 and tying to redeem himself? or leading a mage group hunting templars since its said that many templars gone rouge from chantry and became mage hunters.

Edit: Lol I forgot to mention my main point. We can't really know if Anders has free will or not.

Modifié par Rassler, 04 mai 2013 - 09:01 .

[Monica21]

Rassler wrote...

It seems most people don't know about this:

If you raise Anders's friendship it will be known that Anders and Justice are of one mind and Anders have free will.

If you raise Ander's rivalry he says that justice is taking away his free will.

So it depends on hawke really.

Sorry, but that just sounds like bad writing.

[The Elder King]

Rassler wrote...

It seems most people don't know about this:

If you raise Anders's friendship it will be known that Anders and Justice are of one mind and Anders have free will.

If you raise Ander's rivalry he says that justice is taking away his free will.

So it depends on hawke really. Also notice the fact that Ander's friendship bonus is to his damage (10% to all damage) meaning when you befriend Anders it means you accept him as he is and support his actions thus you support his vengeance. BUT if you raise his rivalry his healing power will become better meaning you have no love for justice and want Anders as his old self, a healer.



Edit: Lol I forgot to mention my main point. We can't really know if Anders has free will or not.

If your post about Anders differences as friend/rival was as a response to mine, I know this full well. I said this because in my canon he's a rival. About the free will part, I exaggerated my point, but as a rival, he's shown to be unable to control Vengeance, who on the other hand took control of his body to preven him to take out the bomb.
Your interpretation of the bonuses are quite interesting, I never thought about that.

[The Elder King]

Monica21 wrote...



Sorry, but that just sounds like bad writing.

Being based on how was implemented in DA2? Maybe. But as I see it, there should have been two version of Anders, one who came to an agreement with the spirit and one who is in conflict with it. And a friend/lover could change his perspective on the topic, though the relationship between Anders and J/V should've been expanded more in the game.

Modifié par hhh89, 04 mai 2013 - 09:10 .