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[Lulupab]

Monica21 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

It seems most people don't know about this:

If you raise Anders's friendship it will be known that Anders and Justice are of one mind and Anders have free will.

If you raise Ander's rivalry he says that justice is taking away his free will.

So it depends on hawke really.

Sorry, but that just sounds like bad writing.

Why exactly? It works the same on all characters.

If you raise Fenris Friendship he will remain hostile to all mages and magic.

If you raise his rivalry his ideas about magic will change, a bit.

Overall befriending companions will mean you support them and their ideas. Becoming their rival means you oppose them and they will slightly change their prespective.

When you support Anders, wether he has free will or not he at least thinks he has control over himself. But when you don't support him again its irrelevant if he has free will or not he at least thinks according to Hawke he has no control over himself and justice and he actually says it before giving you a chance to kill him.

Modifié par Rassler, 04 mai 2013 - 09:20 .

[Jonathan Seagull]

Qistina wrote...

Varric is not the eye witness of every events. first of he tell about how Hake end up in Kirkwal in the intro...he's not there...when he mention Flemeth in which it is doubtful Flemeth is really there, Cassandra mock him...

Then he say "You don't mind i made up everything as i go?", Cassandra says "Not at all"

Unless you bring Varric everywhere you go, Varric IS NOT the eye witness....the reason why he's locked in the Deep Road quest is because of that, it means out of all things only the Deep Road event he's really there with Hawke, and that event is the only reliable if he's not exaggerate it out of all things

There may be a bit of a translation issue here, in which case I apologize, but I believe what he says is to the effect of "You aren't afraid I'll just make it up?"  Rather than "You don't mind if I make it up."

Except where it's made explicit (such as confronting Bartrand), I just don't see why I should consider the events of the game anything less than what actually happened.  I don't think Hawke's rise to power is any more a "version" of events than the Warden's journey, but because DA2 used a more obvious framing device, a lot of people seem to have gotten a bit stuck on that.  I don't remember if it was pre- or post-release, but I remember certain people going so far as to claim that players didn't even really get to make choices, but rather that the narration somehow determined how the story unfolded.  Rather than the more likely (and in my opinion, actual) situation of "Our choices create Hawke's story, which is then reflected by Varric."

Oh, topic.  I'd love to see Anders and or Justice/Vengeance play a role in Inquisition, while respecting players' DA2 choices.    So if Anders is dead, he should stay dead (though I wouldn't be averse to a Justice/Vengeance appearance).  I just hope that appearances by established characters are well-done.  I was actually okay with the DA2 cameos overall, but after playing the Mass Effect series...they are done much better there.  I realize ME is different because of the consistent protagonist, but even so I think they just worked better.  They were generally more substantial, for one, and often integrated into the main storyline (or at least, optional-but-related side missions).

Modifié par Jonathan Seagull, 04 mai 2013 - 09:25 .

[Monica21]

Rassler wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

It seems most people don't know about this:

If you raise Anders's friendship it will be known that Anders and Justice are of one mind and Anders have free will.

If you raise Ander's rivalry he says that justice is taking away his free will.

So it depends on hawke really.

Sorry, but that just sounds like bad writing.

Why exactly? It works the same on on all characters.

If you raise Fenris Friendship he will remain hostile to all mages and magic.

If you raise his rivalry his ideas about magic will change, a bit.

Overall befriending companions will mean you support them and their ideas. Becoming their rival means you oppose them and they will slightly change their prespective.

When you support Anders, wether he has free will or not he at least thinks he has control over himself. But when you don't support him again its irrelevant if he has free will or not he at least thinks according to Hawke he has no control over himself and justice and he actually says it before giving you a chance to kill him.

It should be noted that in the example of Fenris, he does have the ability to decide for himself. Anders doesn't have that luxury. Anders either has free will or he doesn't. Justice either takes over Anders or he doesn't. That's really not the kind of thing that can be dependent on Hawke, so Anders is lying to Hawke in one of the scenarios. The problem is that Hawke doesn't know whether he's lying and the game doesn't give you a way to find out.

[The Hierophant]

Qistina wrote...

Varric is not the eye witness of every events. first of he tell about how Hake end up in Kirkwal in the intro...he's not there...when he mention Flemeth in which it is doubtful Flemeth is really there, Cassandra mock him...

Then he say "You don't mind i made up everything as i go?", Cassandra says "Not at all"

Unless you bring Varric everywhere you go, Varric IS NOT the eye witness....the reason why he's locked in the Deep Road quest is because of that, it means out of all things only the Deep Road event he's really there with Hawke, and that event is the only reliable if he's not exaggerate it out of all things

At the beginning of Questions and Answers Varric asks Hawke about the Ogre they faced, alluding that Hawke, Aveline, or sibling had previously spoke of their escape from Lothering to him. Plus the party banter shows that the companions speak to each other about past events, making Varric's testimony plausible.

[Zelto]

Really hope I don't see Anders or Justice/Vengence ever again.

I liked Justice in DA:A and didn't mind Anders but personally think DA:2 destroyed both.

[Silfren]

Qistina wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Well I dont know about hawke but remember wynne? Age is irrelevant when you have a spirit in you. Same is the case with Anders

Maybe Anders found a way to reverse the effects of tranquility! That would be awesome

I am not sure Wayne is really old, although she is motherly nagging type of a character and wise appearance, she is quite young in attitude

There is a convo between her and Leliana, but i forgot the whole convo, about her age as i remember, she is not far older than Leliana....ah yes, Leliana age herself is in question

And so Flemeth....

I can't say "spirits in you" have anything to do with it, i say it is the character designer fault lol

Edit : After 7 years, all DA2 characters stay the same...i remember my self 7 years ago, now i have more white hairs....

....the conversation you remember had nothing whatsoever to do with Wynne's age, it was all about Leliana saying she looked younger than she was. 

Where on earth are you getting that Wynne is not much older than Leliana?  she's considerably older...

Asunder has Wynne saying, in a conversation with Rhys, that she laid with a templar 40 years ago.  Assuming she got pregnant at the legal age (there's no reference to how old she was when she got pregnant, as far as I recall), she is at minimum fifty-eight.  Given her constant remarks about age, I've always taken her to be a good deal older than that.  For Asunder I've always pictured her as being around seventy.  But she's definitely much older than Leliana is. 

[LPPrince]

Qistina wrote...

the reason why he's locked in the Deep Road quest is because of that, it means out of all things only the Deep Road event he's really there with Hawke, and that event is the only reliable if he's not exaggerate it out of all things

Actually, the reason he's locked in for the Deep Roads quest is because he has to be in your party for it to make sense, i.e. the back and forth with Bartrand and such.

Same reason why other characters are locked in for other quests.

[Boycott Bioware]

The Hierophant wrote...

At the beginning of Questions and Answers Varric asks Hawke about the Ogre they faced, alluding that Hawke, Aveline, or sibling had previously spoke of their escape from Lothering to him. Plus the party banter shows that the companions speak to each other about past events, making Varric's testimony plausible.

Later Varric admit to Hawke that he exaggerate the story, making his version is unreliable...funnily he told this to Cassadra

[Boycott Bioware]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...
There may be a bit of a translation issue here, in which case I apologize, but I believe what he says is to the effect of "You aren't afraid I'll just make it up?" Rather than "You don't mind if I make it up."

I only use my memory here

Anyway, Cassandra also said "but if you told me they all flew to Kirkwal on a dragon...", Varric reply "Nothing too fanciful"

Meaning the whole story is fanciful but not too fanciful...it is like i am telling a story about a guy who manage to beat a robber, the guy just lucky to be alive...i add up there are 10 robbers, they use guns, the guy use Karate to defeat them all, the robbers leader flew in the air when the guy punch him in the belly...not too fanciful...if it is fanciful i say that guy turn into Incredible Hulk and crush the robbers head

[Goneaviking]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

As far as Anders continue relevance post-bombing. He has none.

His only powerbase is the affection he enjoyed from the lowest classes as the benevolent healer, which could very well dry up if it ever comes to light that he was behind the murder of Elthina.

The various factions already have their charismatic firebrands, they won't be looking for an abomination to take over and tell them who to kill and why just because he was the one to put flame to powderkeg. 

History is written by the winners. Before Israel was established there were some radical zionists that did terrorist acts for the cause of a jewish state.

The same terrorists were later top men in IDF (Israeli Defense Force) and Israeli politics, and are hailed as heroes. Google  Menachem Begin 

Menachem Begin was an Israeli politician, founder of Likud and the sixth Prime Minister of the State of Israel. Before independence, he was the leader of the Zionist militant group Irgun, the Revisionist breakaway from the larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah. He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency. As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Palestine.

One man's terrorist is another man's "freedom fighter" . It depends on who gets to write the history books.

History is written by the survivors.

Israel went through a honeymoon period where the sins of its founders were overlooked, and the suffering of the indigenous population was disregarded but that's changing year by year.

Not that it actually has anything to do with what I posted. Begin was a big man in a movement, Anders was a lone bomber. These are two very different starting points, and Anders doesn't have anyone other than Hawke's pals to tell side of the story.

He's much more likely to go down in history as that nice mage who healed those peasants before he died/disappeared the night the chantry blew up and the templars rampaged through town than as the leader/spiritual father of a movement.

[Goneaviking]

Qistina wrote...

Jonathan Seagull wrote...
There may be a bit of a translation issue here, in which case I apologize, but I believe what he says is to the effect of "You aren't afraid I'll just make it up?" Rather than "You don't mind if I make it up."

I only use my memory here

Anyway, Cassandra also said "but if you told me they all flew to Kirkwal on a dragon...", Varric reply "Nothing too fanciful"

Meaning the whole story is fanciful but not too fanciful...it is like i am telling a story about a guy who manage to beat a robber, the guy just lucky to be alive...i add up there are 10 robbers, they use guns, the guy use Karate to defeat them all, the robbers leader flew in the air when the guy punch him in the belly...not too fanciful...if it is fanciful i say that guy turn into Incredible Hulk and crush the robbers head

"...if you tell me they flew to Kirkwall on a dragon" *threat*

"nothing so fanciful" *deflection*

You get the word wrong and it changes the meaning of the statement completely.

Cassandra accuses him of making stuff up, he implies that he's relaying the story as it was told to him.

[The Hierophant]

Qistina wrote...
Later Varric admit to Hawke that he exaggerate the story, making his version is unreliable...funnily he told this to Cassadra.

It's speculation that Varric fibbed about the whole story, and you've yet to provide facts that contradict his version of the events. Until a writer states that he Keyser Söze'd the story, the board will continue to discuss the characters, and events normally. Plus you're relying on a statement in Varric's testimony (Varric asking Hawke if they wouldn't mind some embellishments in their story) to dismiss the character portrayals/events of DA2, when the whole point of your stance is that Varric could be lying. Isn't that contradictory?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 mai 2013 - 02:25 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Goneaviking wrote...
"nothing so fanciful" *deflection*

You get the word wrong and it changes the meaning of the statement completely.

So you agree i changed the word change the meaning completely...how good Varric memory is? How can he possibly remember every dialogues spoken by all characters? He never makes any mistakes in even ONE word that change the whole story completely?

Unless of course if you say Varric is inspired by Holy Spirit or something...

The Hierophant wrote...
It's speculation that Varric fibbed about the whole story, and you've yet to provide facts that contradict his version of the events. Until a writer states that he Keyser Söze'd the story, the board will continue to discuss the characters, and events normally. Plus you're relying on a statement in Varric's testimony (Varric asking Hawke if they wouldn't mind some embellishments in their story) to dismiss the character portrayals/events of DA2, when the whole point of your stance is that Varric could be lying. Isn't that contradictory?

What proof do you want? I am using a lawyer argument here, there no need for solid proof that challenge Varric version, i am challenging Varric reliability as the only source here

i. Varric is a known liar
ii. he's a story teller
iii. he admit exaggerating stories
iv. he's a dwarf surely he will not understand things that dwarves are not accustomed with
v. he may be biased depends on his relationship with all characters
vi. he's not eye witness of all events
vii. he maybe get infos from 3rd parties...who?
viii. are those 3rd parties reliable?
ix. he's under preasure
x. there is no proof to support his claims

[Goneaviking]

Qistina wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...
"nothing so fanciful" *deflection*

You get the word wrong and it changes the meaning of the statement completely.

So you agree i changed the word change the meaning completely...how good Varric memory is? How can he possibly remember every dialogues spoken by all characters? He never makes any mistakes in even ONE word that change the whole story completely?

Unless of course if you say Varric is inspired by Holy Spirit or something...

Varric doesn't make any effort to play up Anders role, and he certainly doesn't seem to glorify him. In the story Varric tells, Anders is a bit part played by an overly dramatic non-entity.

It doesn't matter if the what happened in the game is canon, although you've never provided anything but wild speculation to assert the opposite, the story he's telling isn't going to help turn Anders into the messiah you want him to become.

[The Hierophant]

Qistina wrote...

i.Varric is a known liar
ii. he's a story teller
iii. he admit exaggerating stories
iv. he's a dwarf surely he will not understand things that dwarves are not accustomed with
v. he may be biased depends on his relationship with all characters
vi. he's not eye witness of all events
vii. he maybe get infos from 3rd parties...who?
viii. are those 3rd parties reliable?
ix. he's under preasure
x. there is no proof to support his claims

Based on your stance that Varric is lying why do you continue to use Varric's characterization from his testimony (that you're skeptical of) to discredit his character? Varric's account of events may not be 100% accurate, but Cassandra seemed perceptive enough to realise when Varric was being fantastical or when events didn't match up to what she knew beforehand.

[The Hierophant]

Goneaviking wrote...

the story he's telling isn't going to help turn Anders into the messiah you want him to become.

Hold up so your telling me that all the skullduggery i responded to was fueled by the refusal to accept Anders' characterization, and role in DA2?

[Black Jimmy]

 I'm going to assume they prefer the idea of the taint corrupting Justice even more. THey seem to enjoy making their characters suffer. Poor, stupid Anders/Justice.
Whelp, I'm going to take that interview as confirmation of Anders return. I'm sure I'll no doubt be dissapponted.

The question is, would the mages want Anders to join them?
I mean, while they're at war, they'll need to start giving the impression to the common people that they deserve to be free, and having a known terrorist accompanying you isn't going to give you much credability.
Of course, he might get welcomed into a more extremist faction of Mages but would he want to join them?
Anders might just be more focused on seperating himself from Justice/Vengence.
If romanced, he's with Hawke.

[Lulupab]

Whatever ladies and gents. Best Dragon age ending hands down. "Lets be fugitives together" as mighty hawke said. Also Isabela, obvously. Everyone likes Isabela.

Modifié par Rassler, 05 mai 2013 - 05:11 .

[ReallyRue]

If Anders lived, I think it would be interesting to see him again, and really, he should be involved in the mages' side of things if he does live. He's the most significant character of DA2.

Also, regardless of whether Anders lives, I'd like to see more of Justice/Vengeance, seeing as he didn't assert himself often (in an obvious way) in DA2. For example, if you killed Anders, perhaps J/V could be seen mercilessly hunting down templars/Chantry folk (and innocents like Ella who he deems to be 'tainted' by templar influence) and you can either kill him or let him go on his way. I can understand why that wouldn't be pleasing to many people though.

[Monica21]

ReallyRue wrote...
Also, regardless of whether Anders lives, I'd like to see more of Justice/Vengeance, seeing as he didn't assert himself often (in an obvious way) in DA2.

What was that now?

If you're saying that his actions were cowardly and stupid, I agree. If you're saying that going after a rogue Templar under the assumption that every Templar and Chantry member wants to make all mages Tranquil lacks a certain degree of assertion, then I disagree. His manifesto was assertive. Whether you help him or not he builds a bomb. Whether you help him or not he plants the bomb to blow up the Chantry. He's convinced that he's right, that all Templars are out to harm or subjugate mages, and the the Chantry doesn't give a damn, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. I'd say that meets the definition of assertive.

[Big I]

Zelto wrote...
Really hope I don't see Anders or Justice/Vengence ever again.

I liked Justice in DA:A and didn't mind Anders but personally think DA:2 destroyed both.

This. The only way I'd be happy with Anders/Vengence turning up again is if it involved some sort of redemption arc for the characters.


Furthermore, Anders epitomised the huge lack of choice you had in DA2. In a relationship with him? He blows up the Chantry. Get him to leave Kirkwall in Act 2? He still blows up the Chantry. No matter what you do, up to and including telling Cullen Anders is planning to attack the Chantry or convincing Anders being an abomination is a very bad idea through maxed Rivalry, he still blows up the Chantry. Nothing you do matters.

[Boycott Bioware]

Based on your stance that Varric is lying why do you continue to use Varric's characterization from his testimony (that you're skeptical of) to discredit his character? Varric's account of events may not be 100% accurate, but Cassandra seemed perceptive enough to realise when Varric was being fantastical or when events didn't match up to what she knew beforehand.

When Varric lie, everyone will believe no matter what, it is proven in the game

i. Tevinter slavers
ii. Ser Karras and group of Templars

So, it is not shocking if Cassandra fall to his lies...

[ReallyRue]

Monica21 wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...
Also, regardless of whether Anders lives, I'd like to see more of Justice/Vengeance, seeing as he didn't assert himself often (in an obvious way) in DA2.

What was that now?

If you're saying that his actions were cowardly and stupid, I agree. If you're saying that going after a rogue Templar under the assumption that every Templar and Chantry member wants to make all mages Tranquil lacks a certain degree of assertion, then I disagree. His manifesto was assertive. Whether you help him or not he builds a bomb. Whether you help him or not he plants the bomb to blow up the Chantry. He's convinced that he's right, that all Templars are out to harm or subjugate mages, and the the Chantry doesn't give a damn, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. I'd say that meets the definition of assertive.

I meant neither. Perhaps 'assert' was the wrong word? What I meant that we didn't often see J/V 'come out' or 'assume control' of Anders very often. Usually it was Anders trying to keep control of his other half. I'd be interested the possibility of seeing an Anders where it's mostly J/V all the time, with the 'real' Anders occasionally breaking through. Usually to restrain J/V from going overboard (like almost killing Ella during his Act 2 quest).

[ghost_ronin]

Dont worry good people, he wont return, i killed him in 3 out of 4 runs.