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[Goneaviking]

ReallyRue wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...
Also, regardless of whether Anders lives, I'd like to see more of Justice/Vengeance, seeing as he didn't assert himself often (in an obvious way) in DA2.

What was that now?

If you're saying that his actions were cowardly and stupid, I agree. If you're saying that going after a rogue Templar under the assumption that every Templar and Chantry member wants to make all mages Tranquil lacks a certain degree of assertion, then I disagree. His manifesto was assertive. Whether you help him or not he builds a bomb. Whether you help him or not he plants the bomb to blow up the Chantry. He's convinced that he's right, that all Templars are out to harm or subjugate mages, and the the Chantry doesn't give a damn, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. I'd say that meets the definition of assertive.

I meant neither. Perhaps 'assert' was the wrong word? What I meant that we didn't often see J/V 'come out' or 'assume control' of Anders very often. Usually it was Anders trying to keep control of his other half. I'd be interested the possibility of seeing an Anders where it's mostly J/V all the time, with the 'real' Anders occasionally breaking through. Usually to restrain J/V from going overboard (like almost killing Ella during his Act 2 quest).

Didn't Anders say in Chapter 1 that there was no longer a distinction between the two entities? That there was no point where one started and the other began? They merged, Anders isn't merely a host for the J/V and J/V isn't a possessing entity.

It should have been obvious from the many and blatant differences between him in DA:O:A and DA2 that Anders as he was had ceased to exist. J/V was constantly 'assuming control' because the merge had fundamentally altered them both by destroying the distinction between one and the other.

That deep voiced, blue glow moment when Anders 'hulks out', that's not J/V taking control it's the new being losing his temper.

The different personality between games isn't because of bad writing, it's because they're different characters.

[Goneaviking]

Qistina wrote...

Based on your stance that Varric is lying why do you continue to use Varric's characterization from his testimony (that you're skeptical of) to discredit his character? Varric's account of events may not be 100% accurate, but Cassandra seemed perceptive enough to realise when Varric was being fantastical or when events didn't match up to what she knew beforehand.

When Varric lie, everyone will believe no matter what, it is proven in the game

i. Tevinter slavers
ii. Ser Karras and group of Templars

So, it is not shocking if Cassandra fall to his lies...

I get it, even Cassandra the seeker has fallen to the nefarious Varric's lies. A good thing Qistina can show us the light with the true reading of DA2 that is only discoverable if you completely ignore everything that happens in the game and write your own fanfiction alternative.

Of course it doesn't matter if Qistina is right, because as (s)he says everyone will believe Varric no matter what.

Damn. History is going to record Anders, a.k.a. the third coming of Andraste (the second being a high dragon the Warden killed in Ferelden) as a mentally unhinged man that planted a bomb which killed the only person who'd shown any ability to moderate Meredith which promptly started a violent purge of the city and spread into a continent spanning war.

He will, perhaps, be misrepresented in art of the period as looking somewhat like this effectively nameless fellow:

Modifié par Goneaviking, 05 mai 2013 - 09:29 .

[bzombo]

Karlone123 wrote...

Justice/Vengeance will most likely return, as well Anders (if he is not killed). But to what extent of the role is unknown.

I'm curious what they do with Justice. If Anders is killed, Justice is still alive. I wonder if that returns the spirit back to his Awakening self. If so, he might inhabit another body and try to correct what he would most likely see as his wrongs since he is responsible for so many deaths. He might act to try and end the war to bring peace back. Should be interesting.

[Monica21]

Goneaviking wrote...
Didn't Anders say in Chapter 1 that there was no longer a distinction between the two entities? That there was no point where one started and the other began? They merged, Anders isn't merely a host for the J/V and J/V isn't a possessing entity.

It should have been obvious from the many and blatant differences between him in DA:O:A and DA2 that Anders as he was had ceased to exist. J/V was constantly 'assuming control' because the merge had fundamentally altered them both by destroying the distinction between one and the other.

That deep voiced, blue glow moment when Anders 'hulks out', that's not J/V taking control it's the new being losing his temper.

The different personality between games isn't because of bad writing, it's because they're different characters.

This is pretty much what I meant. And yes, in Act I Anders says that he hears Justice's thoughts as if they're his own. He can't "have a conversation" with Justice, which means that Justice is Anders and has fundamentally changed him. Anders can't assert himself because there isn't anything left of Awakening Anders to assert. 

[The Hierophant]

Qistina wrote...

When Varric lie, everyone will believe no matter what, it is proven in the game

i. Tevinter slavers
ii. Ser Karras and group of Templars

So, it is not shocking if Cassandra fall to his lies.

"If it doesn't fit, you must acquit." - Johnnie L. Cochran

[Renmiri1]

Goneaviking wrote...

He will, perhaps, be misrepresented in art of the period as looking somewhat like this effectively nameless fellow:

 Menachem Begin the sixth Prime Minister of the State of Israel


On July 1, 1946, Moshe Sneh, chief of the Haganah General Headquarters, sent a letter to the then leader of the Irgun, Menachem Begin, which instructed him to "carry out the operation at the 'chick'", code for the King David Hotel

July 22, 1946, Jerusalem. Irgun attacks:The west wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem which housed British Military Headquarters and other governmental offices was destroyed at 12:57 PM by explosives planted in the cellar by members of the Irgun terrorist gang. By the 26 of July the casualties were 76 persons killed, 46 injured and 29 still missing in the rubble. The dead included many British, Arabs and Jews.

Amichai Paglin was the Chief Operations Officer of the Irgun, the commander of the battle to conquer Jaffa in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, and, following independence, Prime Minister Menachem Begin’s counter-terrorism advisor.

Ya, forgotten or promoted to Prime Minister 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 06 mai 2013 - 04:33 .

[The Hierophant]

^I think Anders' comparison to Gavrilo Princip flew right over your head?

[Goneaviking]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

He will, perhaps, be misrepresented in art of the period as looking somewhat like this effectively nameless fellow:

 Menachem Begin the sixth Prime Minister of the State of Israel


On July 1, 1946, Moshe Sneh, chief of the Haganah General Headquarters, sent a letter to the then leader of the Irgun, Menachem Begin, which instructed him to "carry out the operation at the 'chick'", code for the King David Hotel

July 22, 1946, Jerusalem. Irgun attacks:The west wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem which housed British Military Headquarters and other governmental offices was destroyed at 12:57 PM by explosives planted in the cellar by members of the Irgun terrorist gang. By the 26 of July the casualties were 76 persons killed, 46 injured and 29 still missing in the rubble. The dead included many British, Arabs and Jews.

Amichai Paglin was the Chief Operations Officer of the Irgun, the commander of the battle to conquer Jaffa in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, and, following independence, Prime Minister Menachem Begin’s counter-terrorism advisor.

Ya, forgotten or promoted to Prime Minister 

Please. Don't ever change.

I love you just the way you are.

[Xilizhra]

^I think Anders' comparison to Gavrilo Princip flew right over your head?

I doubt it. It was a silly comparison.

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...

^I think Anders' comparison to Gavrilo Princip flew right over your head?

I doubt it. It was a silly comparison.

Anders committed a murder and started a continent spanning war.

Gavrilo Princip committed a murder and started a continent spannin war.

What makes it a silly comparison?

And how does that explain someone telling us how important to history Menachem Begin is, while being unable to differentiate his photo from Gavrilo Princip's?

[Xilizhra]

Goneaviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

^I think Anders' comparison to Gavrilo Princip flew right over your head?

I doubt it. It was a silly comparison.

Anders committed a murder and started a continent spanning war.

Gavrilo Princip committed a murder and started a continent spannin war.

What makes it a silly comparison?

And how does that explain someone telling us how important to history Menachem Begin is, while being unable to differentiate his photo from Gavrilo Princip's?

Gavrilo Princip wanted Serbian independence, but I don't think it was his intention to start WW1. And Anders didn't actually start the war; that was declared by the templars at the end of Asunder. Anders just wanted to show the world how far things could go.

Also, Renmiri wasn't missing that the photo was of Princip, she was making a point that people who've performed Andersish actions can have more than one possible place in history.

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

^I think Anders' comparison to Gavrilo Princip flew right over your head?

I doubt it. It was a silly comparison.

Anders committed a murder and started a continent spanning war.

Gavrilo Princip committed a murder and started a continent spannin war.

What makes it a silly comparison?

And how does that explain someone telling us how important to history Menachem Begin is, while being unable to differentiate his photo from Gavrilo Princip's?

Gavrilo Princip wanted Serbian independence, but I don't think it was his intention to start WW1. And Anders didn't actually start the war; that was declared by the templars at the end of Asunder. Anders just wanted to show the world how far things could go.

Also, Renmiri wasn't missing that the photo was of Princip, she was making a point that people who've performed Andersish actions can have more than one possible place in history.

Gavrilo Princip wanted a united Yugoslavia independent from Austria-Hungary. And he didn't actually start the First World War, that was caused by a number of long running political conflicts coming to a head following the assassination.

Anders wanted mages independent from from Chantry/Templar rule, given his position on bloodmagic and consorting with demons I'm fairly certain he didn't want total independance for the mages but it's hard to say with certainty. And Anders didn't actually start the mage-templar war, that was caused by a number of long running political conflicts coming to a head following the bombing.

If Renmiri was trying to make the point that people who've been terrorists can have more than one possible place in history, then Renmiri was arguing to himself because no one ever said they couldn't. What I did say was that Menachem Begin was a foolish comparison because he was a leader in a concerted movement, whereas Anders is a lone bomber without affiliations.

Few of the small number of people who know of his involvement have any reason to tout him, and the various mage and mage-sympathetic factions that take up arms will have their own agendas and leaders.

[Xilizhra]

Few of the small number of people who know of his involvement have any reason to tout him, and the various mage and mage-sympathetic factions that take up arms will have their own agendas and leaders.

Perhaps. Of course, the only reason Anders is alone is that his entire group got killed, mostly between Acts 2 and 3; the remainder wound up getting killed by Hawke when they went out of control, sadly. Anders does have some leadership skill, and I could see him with another group.

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...

Few of the small number of people who know of his involvement have any reason to tout him, and the various mage and mage-sympathetic factions that take up arms will have their own agendas and leaders.

Perhaps. Of course, the only reason Anders is alone is that his entire group got killed, mostly between Acts 2 and 3; the remainder wound up getting killed by Hawke when they went out of control, sadly. Anders does have some leadership skill, and I could see him with another group.

When did Hawke kill his group?

[Lulupab]

Also don't forget that Justice hated Templars in awakening as well and kept talking with Anders about freeing all of mages. Justice said it was selfish of Anders to only think about himself and he needs to help all mages. (from idle conversations)

Amells were vicount before dumar (read it if you have doubts) and I'm speaking about leandra's grand parents but just because they give birth to a mage child everything was taken from them even the child they just had (sent to circle) because they see magic as curse and its a scandal for a royal family yo have mage child. hence the human from magi origin has the last name Amell. That makes him Hawke's cosuin. Anyway Anders didn't blow up the chantry to start a war. If you take mage children and force people to never see them again ever unless they escape the tower destroying chantry is a perfect message.

[NRieh]

Adam Howden (Anders voice actor in Dragon Age 2) hinted that he might be recording for Dragon Age 3

Could be any "additional voices", actually. We can hear a lot of VA across all the series, like Mark Meer voicing vorcha for ME or Lothering templars from DAO speaking with "Fenris with a bucket on his head" voice, and Raphael Sbarge has "Generic Skeleton Enemy" and "Generic Troll Enemy" mentioned in his imdb list. Howden can act anyone and anything, and if he's a good actor (which he is) - we may not even recognize him before reading full VA cast in credits.

As for Anders in DA3 - I already mentioned, that as much as I'd like to hear from him and myHawke - there is a very little chance that I will like the way they it's done. I'm fine with my headcanons, actually. But I do understand that if they decide to involve Junders - they will do so.

[Xilizhra]

Goneaviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Few of the small number of people who know of his involvement have any reason to tout him, and the various mage and mage-sympathetic factions that take up arms will have their own agendas and leaders.

Perhaps. Of course, the only reason Anders is alone is that his entire group got killed, mostly between Acts 2 and 3; the remainder wound up getting killed by Hawke when they went out of control, sadly. Anders does have some leadership skill, and I could see him with another group.

When did Hawke kill his group?

Best Served Cold. Also, if you're a douchebag, The Last Holdouts.

[ReallyRue]

Goneaviking wrote...
Didn't Anders say in Chapter 1 that there was no longer a distinction between the two entities? That there was no point where one started and the other began? They merged, Anders isn't merely a host for the J/V and J/V isn't a possessing entity.

It should have been obvious from the many and blatant differences between him in DA:O:A and DA2 that Anders as he was had ceased to exist. J/V was constantly 'assuming control' because the merge had fundamentally altered them both by destroying the distinction between one and the other.

That deep voiced, blue glow moment when Anders 'hulks out', that's not J/V taking control it's the new being losing his temper.

The different personality between games isn't because of bad writing, it's because they're different characters.

I do remember him saying that, but he contradicts himself with it. After the initial quest with Karl, Anders says that when he sees templars do things that make him angry 'he comes out' which he says is no longer Justice, but Vengeance, and after he almost kills Ella, Anders talks about 'that creature of vengeance' potentially killing a patient. If he's been rivalled, there's an entire Act3 Questioning Beliefs conversation with J/V that Anders can't remember taking place. Although they're no longer separate people, I don't think they've completey merged. Either that or Anders still has some split-personality type of thing, even if the isn't split between Anders and J/V.

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Few of the small number of people who know of his involvement have any reason to tout him, and the various mage and mage-sympathetic factions that take up arms will have their own agendas and leaders.

Perhaps. Of course, the only reason Anders is alone is that his entire group got killed, mostly between Acts 2 and 3; the remainder wound up getting killed by Hawke when they went out of control, sadly. Anders does have some leadership skill, and I could see him with another group.

When did Hawke kill his group?

Best Served Cold. Also, if you're a douchebag, The Last Holdouts.

I don't recall any mention of them being part of Anders' group in Best Served Cold, in my playthroughs I'm sure they said that Thrask put the conspiracy together. I haven't ever sided with the Templars because I'm far too anti-them for it to feel comfortable, but the walkthrough I just read didn't mention that anyone was affiliated with Anders either.

How sure are you about this?

[Xilizhra]

I don't recall any mention of them being part of Anders' group in Best Served Cold, in my playthroughs I'm sure they said that Thrask put the conspiracy together. I haven't ever sided with the Templars because I'm far too anti-them for it to feel comfortable, but the walkthrough I just read didn't mention that anyone was affiliated with Anders either.

How sure are you about this?

Extremely. Anders talks about how he's involved in the mage underground in Act 2, then says in Act 3 that they've been all but crushed and the last of them have turned to blood magic to survive. That then is Thrask's group.

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't recall any mention of them being part of Anders' group in Best Served Cold, in my playthroughs I'm sure they said that Thrask put the conspiracy together. I haven't ever sided with the Templars because I'm far too anti-them for it to feel comfortable, but the walkthrough I just read didn't mention that anyone was affiliated with Anders either.

How sure are you about this?

Extremely. Anders talks about how he's involved in the mage underground in Act 2, then says in Act 3 that they've been all but crushed and the last of them have turned to blood magic to survive. That then is Thrask's group.

I can recall him talking about his followers, but not the Thrask group. I'll pay some extra attention to that storyline next time I play through.

[Xilizhra]

Goneaviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't recall any mention of them being part of Anders' group in Best Served Cold, in my playthroughs I'm sure they said that Thrask put the conspiracy together. I haven't ever sided with the Templars because I'm far too anti-them for it to feel comfortable, but the walkthrough I just read didn't mention that anyone was affiliated with Anders either.

How sure are you about this?

Extremely. Anders talks about how he's involved in the mage underground in Act 2, then says in Act 3 that they've been all but crushed and the last of them have turned to blood magic to survive. That then is Thrask's group.

I can recall him talking about his followers, but not the Thrask group. I'll pay some extra attention to that storyline next time I play through.

It's not explicitly stated that they're the same group, but it's fairly obvious; there's no narrative point whatsoever to mentioning that the underground isn't gone yet and has turned to blood magic if you never meet them at all.

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't recall any mention of them being part of Anders' group in Best Served Cold, in my playthroughs I'm sure they said that Thrask put the conspiracy together. I haven't ever sided with the Templars because I'm far too anti-them for it to feel comfortable, but the walkthrough I just read didn't mention that anyone was affiliated with Anders either.

How sure are you about this?

Extremely. Anders talks about how he's involved in the mage underground in Act 2, then says in Act 3 that they've been all but crushed and the last of them have turned to blood magic to survive. That then is Thrask's group.

I can recall him talking about his followers, but not the Thrask group. I'll pay some extra attention to that storyline next time I play through.

It's not explicitly stated that they're the same group, but it's fairly obvious; there's no narrative point whatsoever to mentioning that the underground isn't gone yet and has turned to blood magic if you never meet them at all.

Except to highlight how dire the situation has become by saying that the few members of the underground that haven't been killed or apprehended have turned to bloodmagic in desperation. It's not so much foreshadowing as adding context to what else is going on in the city and in the back of Anders' mind.

The mages are, I believe, circle mages rather than apostates on the lam. Grace's membership, as well as the Templars, seem to confirm it. Grace you probably remember was recaptured by the Templars before Chapter 2 even if you let her go free.