264 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Argolas wrote...

We are offered to strike a deal with the Reapers- and Shepard listens and considers it.

Must this falsehood continue to be perpetrated?

Synthesis and Control are not "deals." They are not compromises. They have inherent value, both for the state of the galaxy at that immediate moment, and for its long-term future.

Synthesis is the ultimate goal of the Reapers. It's what he wants. If he get's this, he will stop the harvest. Leviathan tells you this, and this is further comfirmed when you talk to the brat. So yes, if you pick that ending you are making a deal with the Reapers and are helping them fulfill their goal.

Modifié par Mr.House, 29 avril 2013 - 08:53 .

[Wayning_Star]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Argolas wrote...

We are offered to strike a deal with the Reapers- and Shepard listens and considers it.

Must this falsehood continue to be perpetrated?

Synthesis and Control are not "deals." They are not compromises. They have inherent value, both for the state of the galaxy at that immediate moment, and for its long-term future.

actually ALL the choices are deals, that's what makes them choices. But the deals all reside with the catalyst and shepard as they have really no choice in the matter, no matter what choice they make.

Its a classic untenable situation. I'm thinking that the OP wishes for those who feel they decided, that their decision be heroic based, not tactical or defined by numbers. Nothing is more dishonorable than war. Peace is differential...

[Wayning_Star]

Mr.House wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Argolas wrote...

We are offered to strike a deal with the Reapers- and Shepard listens and considers it.

Must this falsehood continue to be perpetrated?

Synthesis and Control are not "deals." They are not compromises. They have inherent value, both for the state of the galaxy at that immediate moment, and for its long-term future.

Synthesis is the ultimate goal of the Reapers. It's what he wants. If he get's this, he will stop the harvest. Leviathan tells you this, and this is further comfirmed when you talk to the brat. So yes, if you pick that ending you are making a deal with the Reapers and are helping them fulfill their goal.

So, destroy won't work?  okay(but the OP won't like that...)

[Wayning_Star]

actually the "deal" if any is made with Shep themselves, the catalyst is merely a mechanism to obtain that end. (probably a fail safe designed into the intelligence via the Leviathan..only an organic can invoke those via the enigmatic crucible/Citadel designer/engineers.)

Unless you think some one else made up the choices menu?

[PsyrenY]

Mr.House wrote...

Synthesis is the ultimate goal of the Reapers. It's what he wants.

Of course it's what the Catalyst wants. That doesn't make it bad. Hitler Ate Sugar.

Mr.House wrote...
If he get's this, he will stop the harvest.

All uses of the Crucible stop the harvest, not just Synthesis. What's your point?

[KaiserShep]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Argolas wrote...

We are offered to strike a deal with the Reapers- and Shepard listens and considers it.

Must this falsehood continue to be perpetrated?

Synthesis and Control are not "deals." They are not compromises. They have inherent value, both for the state of the galaxy at that immediate moment, and for its long-term future.

Deals are exactly what those two options are, for one simple reason: the hellish, sapient constructs get to contuinue existence. Its not just about stopping the harvest, for the same reason I wouldnt preserve the collector base despite having the option to just kill the collectors with a timed radiation pulse. Id destroy it even if TIM just wanted to put a gift shop in it. Lets be honest. If players were able to destroy the reapers and keep EDI and the geth intact, the other options would be completely defunct, because it would mean that the reapers were wrong and synthetic life can live well enough alongside organics without nanny robo squids of death. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 29 avril 2013 - 09:16 .

[Wayning_Star]

I kept the collector base as TIM was only human, and at that time a resource. The base had potential as intel on the reapers/collector connection. Or so I thought at the time. The 'reapers' were the proof in the pudding that organics and synthetics would compete, as the destroy option demonstrates the catalysts' point..

[Xilizhra]

KaiserShep wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Argolas wrote...

We are offered to strike a deal with the Reapers- and Shepard listens and considers it.

Must this falsehood continue to be perpetrated?

Synthesis and Control are not "deals." They are not compromises. They have inherent value, both for the state of the galaxy at that immediate moment, and for its long-term future.

Deals are exactly what those two options are, for one simple reason: the hellish, sapient constructs get to contuinue existence. Its not just about stopping the harvest, for the same reason I wouldnt preserve the collector base despite having the option to just kill the collectors with a timed radiation pulse. Id destroy it even if TIM just wanted to put a gift shop in it. Lets be honest. If players were able to destroy the reapers and keep EDI and the geth intact, the other options would be completely defunct, because it would mean that the reapers were wrong and synthetic life can live well enough alongside organics without nanny robo squids of death. 

Speak for yourself. I haven't taken MEHEM because I don't want the Reapers destroyed; they're both too useful and I want to see if they can live free within this galaxy.

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf is trolling. Never mind that.

@Optimystic_X: Yes they are "deals". We sacrifice our lives and allow the Reapers to continue, in return they stop killing. And all of the terms, even Destroy, are set by the Catalyst.


@WayningStar: Destroy does not work? I'd be totally fine with that! That means I have possibly not wiped out all Synthetics.
About your initial reply: Shepard does not think he or she is a hero, but IS- anywhere BUT in the ending. Shepard is not special in there because of heroic qualities, he/she is special because Shep reached the Catalyst and that is trolling considering the Catalyst just brought Shep up there by itself while Shep was unconscious. And that's bad writing. When you tell a story about heroism with a very strong hero as your protagonist and that protagonist is suddenly not a hero anymore, that is a problem. If you do that, you better have a damn good explanation for it and you better make sure to share that with your audience because if you just pretend it was normal, you get a sh!tstorm.Well, guess what happened.

[Xilizhra]

No one else had reached the chamber right below the Catalyst and survived, either. Shepard is definitely special for having made it that far.

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

No one else had reached the chamber right below the Catalyst and survived, either. Shepard is definitely special for having made it that far.

Anderson and TIM have, but never mind, it's beside the point anyway.

[Xilizhra]

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No one else had reached the chamber right below the Catalyst and survived, either. Shepard is definitely special for having made it that far.

Anderson and TIM have, but never mind, it's beside the point anyway.

Anderson was dying and TIM indoctrinated, and in any case, neither of them was able to open the arms to bring the Crucible in.

[ThinkSharp]

Argolas wrote...

@Optimystic_X: Yes they are "deals". We sacrifice our lives and allow the Reapers to continue, in return they stop killing. And all of the terms, even Destroy, are set by the Catalyst.

You're really misrepresenting the endings in that statement, Arg.

Synth and Control both change the Reapers fundamentally. It isn't a matter of some treaty being brokered in which Shepard agrees to die and the Reapers go away to terrorize some other universe.

You may believe the Reapers shouldn't exist, even if they've been changed or put under new guidance, and that's your right. But it doesn't change what Synth an d Control present.

[Argolas]

ThinkSharp wrote...

Argolas wrote...

@Optimystic_X: Yes they are "deals". We sacrifice our lives and allow the Reapers to continue, in return they stop killing. And all of the terms, even Destroy, are set by the Catalyst.

You're really misrepresenting the endings in that statement, Arg.

Synth and Control both change the Reapers fundamentally. It isn't a matter of some treaty being brokered in which Shepard agrees to die and the Reapers go away to terrorize some other universe.

You may believe the Reapers shouldn't exist, even if they've been changed or put under new guidance, and that's your right. But it doesn't change what Synth an d Control present.

So Control does not mean that Shepard agrees to join them in return for the chance to make them stop killing everyone? So Synthesis does not mean that Shepard agrees to solve what the Reapers consider the problem so they would stop killing everyone?

[Xilizhra]

So Control does not mean that Shepard agrees to join them in return for the chance to make them stop killing everyone? So Synthesis does not mean that Shepard agrees to solve what the Reapers consider the problem so they would stop killing everyone?

The point is that the Reapers stop being what they had been previously. The original Reaper threat is dead and gone no matter what you do. It's not like conventional surrender at all, unless you think of it as the Reapers surrendering (which is arguably true).

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that the Reapers stop being what they had been previously. The original Reaper threat is dead and gone no matter what you do. It's not like conventional surrender at all, unless you think of it as the Reapers surrendering (which is arguably true).

If the Reapers had truly surrendered I would not have to wipe out my synthetic friends in order to defeat them.

And you just keep missing the point of this thread. If Shepard had changed what the Reapers are, that would be fine, but that is not what happens. Shepard just picks one out of 3 choices that the reapers grant him/her out of generosity instead of leaving Shep bleeding out in the chamber below the Catalyst.

[Xilizhra]

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that the Reapers stop being what they had been previously. The original Reaper threat is dead and gone no matter what you do. It's not like conventional surrender at all, unless you think of it as the Reapers surrendering (which is arguably true).

If the Reapers had truly surrendered I would not have to wipe out my synthetic friends in order to defeat them.

And you just keep missing the point of this thread. If Shepard had changed what the Reapers are, that would be fine, but that is not what happens. Shepard just picks one out of 3 choices that the reapers grant him/her out of generosity instead of leaving Shep bleeding out in the chamber below the Catalyst.

You already wiped out the vast majority of sapient synthetics on Rannoch.

And honestly? I don't care. I don't care how the harvest ends, I just want it to end. If the Catalyst wants to throw me a bone, then I say throw the **** out of that bone.

[ThinkSharp]

Argolas wrote...

So Control does not mean that Shepard agrees to join them in return for the chance to make them stop killing everyone? So Synthesis does not mean that Shepard agrees to solve what the Reapers consider the problem so they would stop killing everyone?

Our underlying assumptions are different, and we're framing the whole situation differently. So let's start with that.

You are viewing the Reapers and the Catalyst as very similiar to humans. They are soldiers with a general, the Catayst. They are trying to win a war. They have desires, aims, schemes, and et cetera, just like people do.

That view has a lot of weight behind it and is supported by much of the series. (Looking at you--arrogance of Harby and Sovereign.)

Here's how I view it:

The Catalyst does not think, reason, or feel in any way that is similar to our human understanding. That's not to say it's way is superior or divine, but simply different. It is much more like a machine. It isn't trying to win a way; it's carrying out a function. The way a computer performs a process. The Reapers are its tools, either knowing or unknowingly. 

This view is supported by the Catalyst and Leviathan, admittedly not great sources, but I am inclined to believe them from a metagame standpoint. 

Now, to Synthesis and Control being deals. You're not wrong, per se. And, according to your view of the situation, that interpretation makes sense. But I argue that it can't be analyzed purely from a human military point of view. Shepard doesn't just join the Reapers. His becoming their Intelligence and leader also changes what they are, as well. It isn't simply that Shepard joins them so they choose to stop because it is what they agreed to. Rather, Shepard's control also changes their basic function.

It's the same with Synthesis. Shepard doesn't simply agree to carry out their plan and so the Reapers say, "OK. Now we're going to stop killing things." Rather, they are also changed, just like the rest of life. They no longer need or want carry out the Harvest. It isn't simply that they stop.

Modifié par ThinkSharp, 29 avril 2013 - 12:36 .

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

You already wiped out the vast majority of sapient synthetics on Rannoch.

You are trolling, right? I explained it three gazillion times already: That decision was anti-reaper, not anti-synthetic. You probably don't know it, but there is something between "No worries Legion I trust everything you do because I am not concerned about people dealing with reaper tech at all as long as they are my friends" and "LOL KILL ALL GETH". This is the dialogue I got, dialogue that neither mindless paragons nor renegades for the lulz will ever get:

Legion: This unit still carries remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code. we can break any Geth security. You are concerned.

Shepard: Hell yes I'm concerned! You are still hooked up to the Reapers?

Legion: No. We only carry code upgrades that make us more effective -- more intelligent.

Shepard: But you lied! I understood when you sprang those Geth Primes on me, but you just keep lying. What do I have to do to gain your trust?

Legion: We did not intend to cause offense.

Shepard: Damn it Legion, how did we get here? The Geth are better than this.

Legion: No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.

Shepard: Yeah...

But you seem to be set to think of me in some particular way already. Someone who picked destroy can't be concerned about Synthetics at all, right? Well fine, go ahead. Just don't be surprised if I ignore you the next time.

[Xilizhra]

Shepard: But you lied! I understood when you sprang those Geth Primes on me, but you just keep lying. What do I have to do to gain your trust?

That wasn't a lie to begin with, Legion never says it has no remains of Reaper code whatsoever. In any case, the geth as a race find it extremely difficult to trust anyone.

Also, the code is harmless, and figuring that out isn't terribly difficult.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 avril 2013 - 01:09 .

[Argolas]

@ThinkSharp: Fair enough. I never had anything against different interpretations. The ending certainly works better with yours, although not really much.

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard: But you lied! I understood when you sprang those Geth Primes on me, but you just keep lying. What do I have to do to gain your trust?

That wasn't a lie to begin with, Legion never says it has no remains of Reaper code whatsoever. In any case, the geth as a race find it extremely difficult to trust anyone.

Also, the code is harmless, and figuring that out isn't terribly difficult.

We're done here. Seriously. Enjoy your stereotypes if it makes you feel superior.

[Xilizhra]

Argolas wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard: But you lied! I understood when you sprang those Geth Primes on me, but you just keep lying. What do I have to do to gain your trust?

That wasn't a lie to begin with, Legion never says it has no remains of Reaper code whatsoever. In any case, the geth as a race find it extremely difficult to trust anyone.

Also, the code is harmless, and figuring that out isn't terribly difficult.

We're done here. Seriously. Enjoy your stereotypes if it makes you feel superior.

Well, really. Even if you're not an active antisynthetic bigot, you're being overly paranoid and throwing billions of lives away with distressing ease for something that has no evidence of being inherently dangerous.

[Bizinha]

Great text! There are still things to be clarified, but for me it would greatly improve.

[DecCylonus]

1) "Shepard is a hero that needs constant help and backup from others...The problem is the fact that the writers decided to have the squad leave altogether. By removing Shepard's crew, Shepard's heroism is gone with them. It doesn't thematically fit into the trilogy that Shepard could get this done alone."  I disagree, in part. When you created Shepard, you chose a past for him or her. Every one of those service history options included a scenario where Shepard alone survived and got the job done. This feat is a big part of the reason that Shepard gets selected as the first human Spectre. If you played Arrival, you get a chance to take Shepard through just such a scenario yourself (and it happens in the storyline even if you didn't play the DLC). I agree that Shepard is often pulled out of the fire by his / her squad, but Shepard has also proven his / her ability to pull off the impossible alone.

2) "Then, we either accept a deal with the Reapers or we wipe out all our synthetic friends, 3 options granted by our enemy out of generosity and we may pick one. We were supposed to spit any "deal" they might offer us back in their faces because we don't need them."  Real wars are seldom won by one side curb stomping the other so badly that they just stop fighting. They all end at the negotiating table. Even when there is a clear victor, that side has a stake in ending the war ASAP, which means they negotiate with the loser. Real wars are also not won by the actions of a lone hero. Personally I like that Mass Effect took a more realistic tone instead of tired old video game conventions.

3) "We were supposed to stand together and show them we are not insignificant. Yet Mass Effect 3's ending shows us we are."  The Catalyst acknowledges "This cycle is different," i.e. it recognizes our significance.

4) "If we manage to ignore the way Shepard behaves in front of the Catalyst and try to be a hero anyway, we just get a "you lose" as an answer."  We were told since ME1 that the Reapers could not be beaten conventionally. Everyone in ME3 that Shepard trusts throws their support behind the Crucible, because they believe that a conventional victory cannot be done. You can call it bad because you don't like it, but you can't call it inconsistent. It has been there throughout all three games.

Modifié par DecCylonus, 29 avril 2013 - 02:45 .