160 réponses à ce sujet

[kaileena_sands]

 I always use the Acolyte on classes that have no direct counter to phantoms when I am hosting.

These days I mostly run the CSMG/Acolyte on my casters, though. I like its accuracy and stability. Is it still cheesy? Probably. Do I give a damn? Nope.

Sometimes I am happy that everyday life is not discussed BSN-style. Then there'd be comments like:  "Oh, you are taking the subway instead of using a bus that passes through all the traffic jams in the city? That is so cheesy. You are using a washing machine instead of washing your clothes by hand? Pfft, cheesy and cowardly."

[Original Twigman]

GiroX- wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...


Bolded: you are still clearly not getting it. Its not a superior option.... its an option that provides a huge safety net when its not really needed

You need to give me an example. You can't just keep saying Im not getting it without actually trying on your part to explain it to me. It comes off as condescending. 

What single weapon in this game rips the shields off things as effectively as the Acolyte and gives a 200% CD? You can probably think up a combination of things that is more effective, but no single weapon comes close to what the Acolyte can do with the same weight. Thats why people think it's a crutch.

And you are facilitating the paradox, you say the Acolyte is a crutch, but then say the Harrier is optimal compared to the Acolyte for the QME. Everyone on BSN seems to think the Harrier is a major crutch.

EDIT: Seriously though, if you get it and I dont, why cant you simply explain it to me? We're not talking theoretical physics or something, just an example of some sort would suffice!

I answered it using an analogy of testosterone use in cycling/lance armstrong on page 2.

edit: the most simple way i can put the distinction is this:

There can be a single item that both people use. One uses it for safety/comfort while the other uses it to push their performance limits. The outcome of performance will be different, in favor of the one using it to push their performance, especially in the long run.

Ex. Me using the TGI/Harrier, pushing the optimal capacity for performance (through the use of headshots and well-timed actions) is a whole lot different then a Pug who uses the TGI/Harrier as a crutch because they need to stay alive while doing some decent damage. One pushes the skill of the user, the other leans on the performance of the gun/kit.

Acolyte/hurricane/CSMG is a perfect example of leaning on the performance of the loadout (for some classes)

Modifié par Original Stikman, 30 avril 2013 - 05:47 .

[Original Twigman]

JohnnyQPublic wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

no way.

There are a few things that people have to take into consideration, lets use the QME, since you chose him.

Acolyte has travel time, as does incinerate & arc grenade. Both powers have cast animations.

A harrier, on the other hand does not have travel time (hitscan). You can easily take out a mook just as fast, if not faster if you learn to headshot with the harrier alone using disruptor rounds.

vs. a boss, the difference will become even more apparent.

Assuming you Tac Scan the Boss, you can simply shoot the harrier until your clip runs out, use grenades to reload cancel, and then keep firing away.

You will demolish an atlas faster with a harrier instead of having to A) wait for travel time of the acolyte  wait for charge up with acolyte, C) animations of both incinerate and arc grenade.

Benefitting from tech bursts are great, but if there is a superior option that requires learning how to shoot/aim better, why not take the time to learn to use it?

LOL, you're suggesting use of a harrier in a discussion about avoiding "crutch" weapons??  Alrighty then.

a crutch is something that makes things easier for you without pushing yourself (acolyte/hurricane combo) vs. a weapon that pushes your performance to its optimal capacity (harrier) are two different things.

People who enjoy being the best at whatever it is they do know the difference.

I would happily put my "philosohpy" to the test with you. You could use the Acolyte/hurricane while i use the harrier and compare performance difference... then you could equip the harrier vs. my harrier and compare performance difference.

Frankly, when people begin to "LOL @ your comments" it becomes evident that most of them aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is. I always am.

[IamZAE]

@Stikman. What is your honest non-biased assement of the reegar carbine on platinum.
On non-vanguard/infiltrator kits. I would like to hear your opinion.

I know it's not hurricane acolyte but that gun is always argued as such as a crutch

Modifié par IamZAE, 30 avril 2013 - 05:46 .

[Curzyfish]

Original Stikman wrote...

JohnnyQPublic wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

no way.

There are a few things that people have to take into consideration, lets use the QME, since you chose him.

Acolyte has travel time, as does incinerate & arc grenade. Both powers have cast animations.

A harrier, on the other hand does not have travel time (hitscan). You can easily take out a mook just as fast, if not faster if you learn to headshot with the harrier alone using disruptor rounds.

vs. a boss, the difference will become even more apparent.

Assuming you Tac Scan the Boss, you can simply shoot the harrier until your clip runs out, use grenades to reload cancel, and then keep firing away.

You will demolish an atlas faster with a harrier instead of having to A) wait for travel time of the acolyte  wait for charge up with acolyte, C) animations of both incinerate and arc grenade.

Benefitting from tech bursts are great, but if there is a superior option that requires learning how to shoot/aim better, why not take the time to learn to use it?

LOL, you're suggesting use of a harrier in a discussion about avoiding "crutch" weapons??  Alrighty then.

a crutch is something that makes things easier for you without pushing yourself (acolyte/hurricane combo) vs. a weapon that pushes your performance to its optimal capacity (harrier) are two different things.

People who enjoy being the best at whatever it is they do know the difference.

I would happily put my "philosohpy" to the test with you. You could use the Acolyte/hurricane while i use the harrier and compare performance difference... then you could equip the harrier vs. my harrier and compare performance difference.

Frankly, when people begin to "LOL @ your comments" it becomes evident that most of them aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is. I always am.

His point is that using the harrier to push yourself is a poor example.  People do call it the carrier for a good reason.  The arc pistol comparison that was mentioned would have been a better example.

[DHKany]

kaileena_sands wrote...

 I always use the Acolyte on classes that have no direct counter to phantoms when I am hosting.

These days I mostly run the CSMG/Acolyte on my casters, though. I like its accuracy and stability. Is it still cheesy? Probably. Do I give a damn? Nope.

Sometimes I am happy that everyday life is not discussed BSN-style. Then there'd be comments like:  "Oh, you are taking the subway instead of using a bus that passes through all the traffic jams in the city? That is so cheesy. You are using a washing machine instead of washing your clothes by hand? Pfft, cheesy and cowardly."

I'm just pointing it out jeez. 
BSN is butthurt center. 

[Original Twigman]

IamZAE wrote...

@Stikman. What is your honest non-biased assement of the reegar carbine on platinum.
On non-vanguard/infiltrator kits. I would like to hear your opinion.

I know it's not hurricane acolyte but that gun is always argued as such as a crutch

if you use the reegar to push yourself to be the best its not a crutch.

ex. Excalizor platinum speedrun using the krogan vangaurd or someone using the valkyrie/reegar to generate the most points possible in the fastest amout of time. This is an example of someone optimizing their performance and skill

put the same setup on someone who just wants to "stay alive" during a gold solo (using the krogan) or random game, or a low-level pug using the reegar/AIU just looking to cheezball some credits. then its a crutch, because they aren't optimizing their performance, they are optimizing the performance of the gun/kit, thereby relying on the performance of those things, rather than on their skill to utilize them.

Modifié par Original Stikman, 30 avril 2013 - 05:57 .

[billy the squid]

DHKany wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

 I always use the Acolyte on classes that have no direct counter to phantoms when I am hosting.

These days I mostly run the CSMG/Acolyte on my casters, though. I like its accuracy and stability. Is it still cheesy? Probably. Do I give a damn? Nope.

Sometimes I am happy that everyday life is not discussed BSN-style. Then there'd be comments like:  "Oh, you are taking the subway instead of using a bus that passes through all the traffic jams in the city? That is so cheesy. You are using a washing machine instead of washing your clothes by hand? Pfft, cheesy and cowardly."

I'm just pointing it out jeez. 
BSN is butthurt center. 

It's because they're all scrubs, they get angry when you point out that using armoured compartments on Platinum and nuking wave 11 doesn't make them good players. 

Taking on a pair of Phantoms with a Black Widow/ Javelin at close range, respect points. Using an Acolyte, pish. My Grandmother could do that with a walking stick.  

Modifié par billy the squid, 30 avril 2013 - 06:15 .

[Striker93175]

FlowCytometry wrote...

Why bother w/ 2 different 'caster' weapons when you can just use a Talon, though?

Stopped reading here.  Dude you nailed it.  Talon is simply a thing of beauty and works on -any- character extremely well.  Too well. 

Plus it bypasses shield gate... toss warp ammo on it on a caster is crazy powerful.  Toss incin ammo or whatnot it becomes a power sprayer... toss drill on it and its a boss killer.  Put a scope mod on it and you can snipe with it. I’m 100% honestly surprised it avoided the nerf hammer (not complaining, i love my talon).  The talon alone is the reason I have less pistol amps than any other consumable (even level 1s lol).

Modifié par Striker93175, 30 avril 2013 - 06:31 .

[FlashAK]

Original Stikman wrote...

yeah, no worries. figured you were kidding around. I am getting a bit silly myself with the sissies comment... but who doesn't want to call others "crutching girly men" ????

yeah, ive seen you rock the sentinel, and well. Best of the Best, son.

Acolyte is fine, hurricane is fine... but when i see that pair (or the CSMG), i immediately think "scrub" when they are on classes i mentioned.

PS. i usually go for chain, recharge, and Overload (or wtv the shield stripper evo is), so it holds more weight for me that the acolyte is unnecessary. For Phantoms, i usually just deal with it like a boss

Crutching girly men is a new one, but it does have a nice ring to it .

Thank you, sir. He is my favorite character after all. I've switched on and off between the shield overload and chain overload evolutions, and the shield evo does make quite a difference. I usually end up going back to full chain since he has no dodge, and it helps a lot when you have a bunch of Dragoons rushing your position and you need to quickly stun them to give yourself some breathing room.

As for people defending using the Acolyte on the QME, I feel that there are much better pistols out there for him. I think that the Talon and Eagle are far superior options (my go-to primary weapons for him), and I would even say the Paladin too. I can understand why people use it, but IMO the Acolyte just slows him down. You have arc grenades for a reason, so use them. While you're taking time to charge and shoot to strip the shields off an Atlas/switching to your primary to work on the armor, I'll have taken it down to a few bars of armor or destroyed it already.

[RamsenC]

I don't understand why anyone would use the Acolyte on an arc grenade class. The Acolyte is for classes with armor damage powers or health control powers.

[WaffleCrab]

RamsenC wrote...

I don't understand why anyone would use the Acolyte on an arc grenade class. The Acolyte is for classes with armor damage powers or health control powers.

take the armor evolution of arc nade and grenade cap upgrade 5, and you understand.

[JohnnyQPublic]

Original Stikman wrote...

JohnnyQPublic wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

no way.

There are a few things that people have to take into consideration, lets use the QME, since you chose him.

Acolyte has travel time, as does incinerate & arc grenade. Both powers have cast animations.

A harrier, on the other hand does not have travel time (hitscan). You can easily take out a mook just as fast, if not faster if you learn to headshot with the harrier alone using disruptor rounds.

vs. a boss, the difference will become even more apparent.

Assuming you Tac Scan the Boss, you can simply shoot the harrier until your clip runs out, use grenades to reload cancel, and then keep firing away.

You will demolish an atlas faster with a harrier instead of having to A) wait for travel time of the acolyte  wait for charge up with acolyte, C) animations of both incinerate and arc grenade.

Benefitting from tech bursts are great, but if there is a superior option that requires learning how to shoot/aim better, why not take the time to learn to use it?

LOL, you're suggesting use of a harrier in a discussion about avoiding "crutch" weapons??  Alrighty then.

a crutch is something that makes things easier for you without pushing yourself (acolyte/hurricane combo) vs. a weapon that pushes your performance to its optimal capacity (harrier) are two different things.

People who enjoy being the best at whatever it is they do know the difference.

I would happily put my "philosohpy" to the test with you. You could use the Acolyte/hurricane while i use the harrier and compare performance difference... then you could equip the harrier vs. my harrier and compare performance difference.

Frankly, when people begin to "LOL @ your comments" it becomes evident that most of them aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is. I always am.

You're actually defending your previous comments?  Sorry, but it deserved my "LOL."  If you have seriously convinced yourself that the harrier is anything but a ridiculously overpowered crutch weapon, then I have nothing more to say.  As the other guy said, there's a reason it is nicknamed the "carrier."

And what do you mean, "put their money where their mouth is"?  Are you challenging me to a score contest?  I have no desire to compare epeens with you, and frankly you probably would outscore me with your harrier.  Yay, you win.  I play for fun, not to "beat" my teammates (go figure).  The bigger point is, if someone enjoys playing with the acolyte/hurricane, why do you care so much?  Frankly, why do you care at all?

[RamsenC]

WaffleCrab wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

I don't understand why anyone would use the Acolyte on an arc grenade class. The Acolyte is for classes with armor damage powers or health control powers.

take the armor evolution of arc nade and grenade cap upgrade 5, and you understand.

I do, but arc grenades with armor evo still destroy shields fast enough and destroy phantoms. Seems redundant to me. I use the Harrier on him.

[Original Twigman]

its always the same nonsense from trolls. "I laugh at your viewpoint but can't back it up so i'll call your challenge one of epeen, despite the fact that LOLing at you is the way i stroke my own epeen so i don't feel bad for my level of skill in the game"

[Original Twigman]

RamsenC wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

I don't understand why anyone would use the Acolyte on an arc grenade class. The Acolyte is for classes with armor damage powers or health control powers.

take the armor evolution of arc nade and grenade cap upgrade 5, and you understand.

I do, but arc grenades with armor evo still destroy shields fast enough and destroy phantoms. Seems redundant to me. I use the Harrier on him.

same. still gets bonuses to shields... also the grenade cap nets you 1 extra grenade... its pretty worthess, imo

[xJNPSx THE WAGN]

all ma casters be rockin dat lancer

[billy the squid]

JohnnyQPublic wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

JohnnyQPublic wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

no way.

There are a few things that people have to take into consideration, lets use the QME, since you chose him.

Acolyte has travel time, as does incinerate & arc grenade. Both powers have cast animations.

A harrier, on the other hand does not have travel time (hitscan). You can easily take out a mook just as fast, if not faster if you learn to headshot with the harrier alone using disruptor rounds.

vs. a boss, the difference will become even more apparent.

Assuming you Tac Scan the Boss, you can simply shoot the harrier until your clip runs out, use grenades to reload cancel, and then keep firing away.

You will demolish an atlas faster with a harrier instead of having to A) wait for travel time of the acolyte  wait for charge up with acolyte, C) animations of both incinerate and arc grenade.

Benefitting from tech bursts are great, but if there is a superior option that requires learning how to shoot/aim better, why not take the time to learn to use it?

LOL, you're suggesting use of a harrier in a discussion about avoiding "crutch" weapons??  Alrighty then.

a crutch is something that makes things easier for you without pushing yourself (acolyte/hurricane combo) vs. a weapon that pushes your performance to its optimal capacity (harrier) are two different things.

People who enjoy being the best at whatever it is they do know the difference.

I would happily put my "philosohpy" to the test with you. You could use the Acolyte/hurricane while i use the harrier and compare performance difference... then you could equip the harrier vs. my harrier and compare performance difference.

Frankly, when people begin to "LOL @ your comments" it becomes evident that most of them aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is. I always am.

You're actually defending your previous comments?  Sorry, but it deserved my "LOL."  If you have seriously convinced yourself that the harrier is anything but a ridiculously overpowered crutch weapon, then I have nothing more to say.  As the other guy said, there's a reason it is nicknamed the "carrier."

And what do you mean, "put their money where their mouth is"?  Are you challenging me to a score contest?  I have no desire to compare epeens with you, and frankly you probably would outscore me with your harrier.  Yay, you win.  I play for fun, not to "beat" my teammates (go figure).  The bigger point is, if someone enjoys playing with the acolyte/hurricane, why do you care so much?  Frankly, why do you care at all?

Here we go with the Harrier, is OP crap again. It is a powerful weapon, yet largely overrated. I see a great deal of ERMA GAHD the TGI Harrier is OP, indeed it is, as is the TGI Reeger, TGI Claymore, TGI Talon, TGI Hurricane. There is a running theme.

You put a Harrier on an adept kit and run it against another adept using the Acolyte + Huricane combo, the former will lose, badly. 

The Harrier get's it's name because it's stupidly easy to use, there is no recoil because of the bug, so headshotting becomes laughably easy, people have to have horrible aim to not be able to land most of their shots even at long distance on full auto. The actual weapon damage is similar to the PPR, Hurricane and Typhoon and is outclassed by the Claymore, Wraith and Talon. 

On top of that if you're not using something to counter the armour damage multiplier of 1 the Harrier is going to lag behind most weapons, same with shields. Throwing a Harrier on something is not an I win button. Namely because you're not understanding the mechanics behind the weapon and how to max out the damage.

Now you run a Harrier on an aggressive Geth engineer build, and you get a powerhouse kit because you maximise, overload for shield stripping the Harrier, NEEDS the HVB mod, use incendiary ammo, spec hunter mode for max damage, and RoF, with a Hurricane as a side arm. forgo Geth turret. The Acolyte is utterly pointless. 

HM: Accuracy, RoF, Damage
Overload: Chain, Recharge, Shield damage
Passives: Weapon damage, Headshot damage, Weapon damage
Fitness: All shields

You've effectively maximised the efficiency of that build to push it to the best levels you can get, now try completing Plat runs with a tech team as fast as possible. That build synergises incredibly well and you max out the damage potential. Swap out the Harrier for a Claymore is you want. It'll work just as well.

Using the Acolyte on a build like that renders it a crutch. You have everything you need to strip shields and deal with armour. 

[JohnnyQPublic]

Original Stikman wrote...

its always the same nonsense from trolls. "I laugh at your viewpoint but can't back it up so i'll call your challenge one of epeen, despite the fact that LOLing at you is the way i stroke my own epeen so i don't feel bad for my level of skill in the game"

Hmm, often it is the trolls who are the first ones calling others trolls.  Guess who called who a troll first?

I can't back up my viewpoint?  Dude, you know as well as I do that the harrier has been discussed to death on this forum.  You don't seriously need a recap from me, and I'm just not going to beat that dead horse.  You think the harrier is a skill-based weapon, and I think the harrier is as big a "crutch" as almost any weapon in the game (although I think the whole idea of a "crutch" weapon is silly).

If anyone is not responding, though, it is you.  WHY do you care if someone wants to use the acolyte and/or hurricane?  Let them have their fun.  You can live in your world of harrier-induced enlightenment and bliss and be totally unaffected.

[Original Twigman]

i never said the harrier is skill-based...

this is how i know you don't understand what i have been saying, and i am not taking you seriously.... if you haven't noticed

[JohnnyQPublic]

I wasn't taking you seriously either, thus the aforementioned "LOL."

[Original Twigman]

JohnnyQPublic wrote...

I wasn't taking you seriously either, thus the aforementioned "LOL."

hence the lack of reading comprehension....

and here we are...

full circle

[JohnnyQPublic]

Original Stikman wrote...

JohnnyQPublic wrote...

I wasn't taking you seriously either, thus the aforementioned "LOL."

hence the lack of reading comprehension....

and here we are...

full circle

Indeed we have, on that we can agree.  And we can agree to disagree on the rest.  Best of luck to you, no hard feelings.

[Jaded4Chaos]

RamsenC wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

I don't understand why anyone would use the Acolyte on an arc grenade class. The Acolyte is for classes with armor damage powers or health control powers.

take the armor evolution of arc nade and grenade cap upgrade 5, and you understand.

I do, but arc grenades with armor evo still destroy shields fast enough and destroy phantoms. Seems redundant to me. I use the Harrier on him.

A neat trick is to use incendiary ammo on the acolyte.  The shields are stripped, fire explosion prepped... but seriously, use what you have fun with.  Forget all the self righteous opinions on here.  Accept/try suggestions but in the end it's about you having fun!

[RamsenC]

Original Stikman wrote...

same. still gets bonuses to shields... also the grenade cap nets you 1 extra grenade... its pretty worthess, imo

Yea I just meant the armor evo, the only capacity ranks I get are on lift grenade and non drell adept cluster grenades. Ignoring the Harrier is a crutch weapon blah blah blah, it has great synergy with classes with AoE CC/damage/DoTs.

The Acolyte incind ammo is nice, but almost any class can do that, doesn't really play to the strengths of the QME.
Anyways I do agree people just need to relax and have fun, but I like min/maxing

Modifié par RamsenC, 30 avril 2013 - 08:15 .