160 réponses à ce sujet

[GiroX-]

Original Stikman wrote...

I answered it using an analogy of testosterone use in cycling/lance armstrong on page 2.

edit: the most simple way i can put the distinction is this:

There can be a single item that both people use. One uses it for safety/comfort while the other uses it to push their performance limits. The outcome of performance will be different, in favor of the one using it to push their performance, especially in the long run.

Ex. Me using the TGI/Harrier, pushing the optimal capacity for performance (through the use of headshots and well-timed actions) is a whole lot different then a Pug who uses the TGI/Harrier as a crutch because they need to stay alive while doing some decent damage. One pushes the skill of the user, the other leans on the performance of the gun/kit.

Acolyte/hurricane/CSMG is a perfect example of leaning on the performance of the loadout (for some classes)

I'm pretty sure I got it now. You're saying a weapon is crutch depending on your intentions on using it. That makes much more sense. 

Just to be sure, the Acolyte can be used optimally on certain classes (like Human Adept) but becomes a crutch when you use it on something like a Turian Sentinel (or anything that can already deal with shields), right? 

That's where I think I misinterpreted your stance on this. I assumed you were arguing that the Acolyte is a crutch any time its used regardless of the character. 

[Original Twigman]

GiroX- wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

I answered it using an analogy of testosterone use in cycling/lance armstrong on page 2.

edit: the most simple way i can put the distinction is this:

There can be a single item that both people use. One uses it for safety/comfort while the other uses it to push their performance limits. The outcome of performance will be different, in favor of the one using it to push their performance, especially in the long run.

Ex. Me using the TGI/Harrier, pushing the optimal capacity for performance (through the use of headshots and well-timed actions) is a whole lot different then a Pug who uses the TGI/Harrier as a crutch because they need to stay alive while doing some decent damage. One pushes the skill of the user, the other leans on the performance of the gun/kit.

Acolyte/hurricane/CSMG is a perfect example of leaning on the performance of the loadout (for some classes)

I'm pretty sure I got it now. You're saying a weapon is crutch depending on your intentions on using it. That makes much more sense. 

Just to be sure, the Acolyte can be used optimally on certain classes (like Human Adept) but becomes a crutch when you use it on something like a Turian Sentinel (or anything that can already deal with shields), right? 

That's where I think I misinterpreted your stance on this. I assumed you were arguing that the Acolyte is a crutch any time its used regardless of the character. 

yeah... ur getting it.

no, acolyte is not a crutch in and of itself... neither is the hurricane... reegar... harrier, etc.

[kaileena_sands]

billy the squid wrote...

DHKany wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

 I always use the Acolyte on classes that have no direct counter to phantoms when I am hosting.

These days I mostly run the CSMG/Acolyte on my casters, though. I like its accuracy and stability. Is it still cheesy? Probably. Do I give a damn? Nope.

Sometimes I am happy that everyday life is not discussed BSN-style. Then there'd be comments like:  "Oh, you are taking the subway instead of using a bus that passes through all the traffic jams in the city? That is so cheesy. You are using a washing machine instead of washing your clothes by hand? Pfft, cheesy and cowardly."

I'm just pointing it out jeez. 
BSN is butthurt center. 

It's because they're all scrubs, they get angry when you point out that using armoured compartments on Platinum and nuking wave 11 doesn't make them good players. 

Taking on a pair of Phantoms with a Black Widow/ Javelin at close range, respect points. Using an Acolyte, pish. My Grandmother could do that with a walking stick.  

There was no butthurt at all in my statement. I actually agree completely that the Acolyte is crutch of some kind, and if you had any basic skills of reading comprehension you'd have understood that.

I'm just saying that BSN has a lot of loud opinions about everything and if we had to listen to all of them, then the we'd probably go crazy. Oh jeez, but I guess someone is butthurt that people don't care about their opinion and immediately start calling them AC using scrubs because they can't think of anything better. Well guess what, such is life, learn to deal with it.

[billy the squid]

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

DHKany wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

 I always use the Acolyte on classes that have no direct counter to phantoms when I am hosting.

These days I mostly run the CSMG/Acolyte on my casters, though. I like its accuracy and stability. Is it still cheesy? Probably. Do I give a damn? Nope.

Sometimes I am happy that everyday life is not discussed BSN-style. Then there'd be comments like:  "Oh, you are taking the subway instead of using a bus that passes through all the traffic jams in the city? That is so cheesy. You are using a washing machine instead of washing your clothes by hand? Pfft, cheesy and cowardly."

I'm just pointing it out jeez. 
BSN is butthurt center. 

It's because they're all scrubs, they get angry when you point out that using armoured compartments on Platinum and nuking wave 11 doesn't make them good players. 

Taking on a pair of Phantoms with a Black Widow/ Javelin at close range, respect points. Using an Acolyte, pish. My Grandmother could do that with a walking stick.  

There was no butthurt at all in my statement. I actually agree completely that the Acolyte is crutch of some kind, and if you had any basic skills of reading comprehension you'd have understood that.

I'm just saying that BSN has a lot of loud opinions about everything and if we had to listen to all of them, then the we'd probably go crazy. Oh jeez, but I guess someone is butthurt that people don't care about their opinion and immediately start calling them AC using scrubs because they can't think of anything better. Well guess what, such is life, learn to deal with it.

^ See butthurt.

And I stand by my premise, use of armoured compartments in Platinum Pugs are deeply offensive. As is the use of the Acolyte to deal with Phantoms.

[kaileena_sands]

billy the squid wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

It's because they're all scrubs, they get angry when you point out that using armoured compartments on Platinum and nuking wave 11 doesn't make them good players. 

Taking on a pair of Phantoms with a Black Widow/ Javelin at close range, respect points. Using an Acolyte, pish. My Grandmother could do that with a walking stick.  

There was no butthurt at all in my statement. I actually agree completely that the Acolyte is crutch of some kind, and if you had any basic skills of reading comprehension you'd have understood that.

I'm just saying that BSN has a lot of loud opinions about everything and if we had to listen to all of them, then the we'd probably go crazy. Oh jeez, but I guess someone is butthurt that people don't care about their opinion and immediately start calling them AC using scrubs because they can't think of anything better. Well guess what, such is life, learn to deal with it.

^ See butthurt.

And I stand by my premise, use of armoured compartments in Platinum Pugs are deeply offensive. As is the use of the Acolyte to deal with Phantoms.

/facepalm

I don't care at all if someone uses AC in Platinum Pugs. I don't personally use it but I don't dictate other people's playstyle so if they so wish, they may go ahead, the game will go faster for me too (if they use it properly). But it seems by what you say that you are actually deeply hurt by them using it, so I guess... I won't spell it out for you. 

[billy the squid]

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

It's because they're all scrubs, they get angry when you point out that using armoured compartments on Platinum and nuking wave 11 doesn't make them good players. 

Taking on a pair of Phantoms with a Black Widow/ Javelin at close range, respect points. Using an Acolyte, pish. My Grandmother could do that with a walking stick.  

There was no butthurt at all in my statement. I actually agree completely that the Acolyte is crutch of some kind, and if you had any basic skills of reading comprehension you'd have understood that.

I'm just saying that BSN has a lot of loud opinions about everything and if we had to listen to all of them, then the we'd probably go crazy. Oh jeez, but I guess someone is butthurt that people don't care about their opinion and immediately start calling them AC using scrubs because they can't think of anything better. Well guess what, such is life, learn to deal with it.

^ See butthurt.

And I stand by my premise, use of armoured compartments in Platinum Pugs are deeply offensive. As is the use of the Acolyte to deal with Phantoms.

/facepalm

I don't care at all if someone uses AC in Platinum Pugs. I don't personally use it but I don't dictate other people's playstyle so if they so wish, they may go ahead, the game will go faster for me too (if they use it properly). But it seems by what you say that you are actually deeply hurt by them using it, so I guess... I won't spell it out for you. 

Really you should kick them from the game for doing so, as they'll never learn howto pug Platinum otherwise. What I am saying is that, crutches allow people to get into bad habits and we get the poor state of the Platinum Pugs. where well over half come equiped with crutches. Acolyte on a Geth Juggernaught with a melee stuner mod... seriously?

Using something like that goes against all logic, this is why sticking an Acolyte on everything, for instance, is bad. Thus telling someone how to play isn't bad, when they're going to faceplant.

Edit:

For instance, you using an Acolyte against Phantoms on host is clearly affecting your skills, to their detriment.

Modifié par billy the squid, 30 avril 2013 - 09:48 .

[Shadow of Terror]

Original Stikman wrote...

Shadow of Terror wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

No character with shield stripping power needs this.... Overload kits/Arc Grenade kits. Disruptor Rounds + High powered weapon (lancer, harrier, wraith, claymore, crusader, etc.), will eliminate an atlas shield faster than pew pew of an acolyte, and save you time switching weapons.

yet i see the combo on kits like, Human engineer, shadow infiltrator, QME, QMI, Turian Sentinel

Here's the thing, the kits you listed there highly benfit from making tech bursts/Fire explosions using ammo as a primer, the acolyte is the ligest, one shot prime weapon, while also throwing in the added bonus of instant shield stripping, with a nice stagger animation. You could use an Adas or Falcon to do the ammo providing job of the Acolyte, but they are also heavy, so you have decide if the extra damage/stagger is worth the weight.

Human engineer, prime with acolyte, detonate with overload/incinerate. QME, prime with acolyte, detonate TB with incinerate, detonate FE with arc grenade.

Shadow/QMI have far better choices however, as does the Turian sentinel (although, the hurricane is good on him).

no way.

There are a few things that people have to take into consideration, lets use the QME, since you chose him.

Acolyte has travel time, as does incinerate & arc grenade. Both powers have cast animations.

A harrier, on the other hand does not have travel time (hitscan). You can easily take out a mook just as fast, if not faster if you learn to headshot with the harrier alone using disruptor rounds.

vs. a boss, the difference will become even more apparent.

Assuming you Tac Scan the Boss, you can simply shoot the harrier until your clip runs out, use grenades to reload cancel, and then keep firing away.

You will demolish an atlas faster with a harrier instead of having to A) wait for travel time of the acolyte  wait for charge up with acolyte, C) animations of both incinerate and arc grenade.

Benefitting from tech bursts are great, but if there is a superior option that requires learning how to shoot/aim better, why not take the time to learn to use it?

You missed the point. You should always take a weapon to deal with bosses on a character, that's why the Hurricane is the often chosen side arm.

Acolyte has travel time, yes, but when has that ever been an issue for a class that runs in and grenades? Yes, you can take out a single mook as fast with a harrier as you could doing the TB/FE, but you won't be able to take out a group anywhere near as effective.

The reason people take the acolyte on classes like the QME, is for the instant one shot ammo prime it does, and when you come to a group of non boss units (aka not a prime, atlas, banshee or praetorian), an acolyte shot to prime, incinerate for TB, then arc grenade for FE will kill faster than shooting all the enemies individually with a harrier. Taking the acolyte(or adas/falcon) turns the character into a even better group clearer, and that's why people use it, it makes their group clearing more optimal.

Then you come to bosses, and yes, at which point using an acolyte is disadvantageuos, so that's why people take a weapon to deal with armour. What weapon is light, does great damage, and can ignore most of the armour mitigation? The CSMG or Hurricane, which is why they taken as a side arm.

The game tips even say, it's better to take one weapon for shields, and another for armor. That was always the idea behind shield gate and armour mitigation, but it never worked out that way.

The use of the acolyte is to strip shields on classes that don't have shield stripping powers, where their powers are less effective against shields (see adepts) or classes that want to easily prime with ammo powers to set of TB/FE (a lot of classes). Meanwhile the hurricane is for classes that have a weakness to taking out bosses, this is where melting them with an hurricane comes in. Crowd control classes normally suffer one or both of these weaknesses.

Taking the acolyte is so classes can make their their crowd control ability even more effective, which then leaves them with a weakness against bosses, so they take the hurricane so they can deal with them.

I don't get how trying to improve your CC abilities with one weapon, while making sure you take another weapon to deal with big boss enemies is a crutch, yet "I can just shoot and kill everything with the harrier!" isn't.

Modifié par Shadow of Terror, 30 avril 2013 - 10:18 .

[Shadow of Terror]

billy the squid wrote...

For instance, you using an Acolyte against Phantoms on host is clearly affecting your skills, to their detriment.

Why? They should just spent ages trying to kill it with a sniper rifle? No, Phantoms are annoying and pretty damn strong, so keeping them staggered/locked in place and killing then quickly, removes their threat. So why struggle doing that with another weapon, when you can take the acoytle with you and easily do it? (P.s. Scorpion is better for it).

Using a weapon to take something out easier and safer isn't a crutch, not knowing how to deal with them without that weapon is a crutch.

[Original Twigman]

@shadow of terror

if you are confused by the distinction between a "crutch" and something that optimizes your potential as a player, then simply read through my other posts. i have explained it several times.

Acolyte + CSMG/Hurricane will not, and won't ever be, optimizing your skill on the qme like the harrier would. Period. Which is why, if you are slower/not as effective with the qme (or other classes not requiring the combo) using a harrier as you are the acolyte/smg, then you haven't pushed your skill potential enough

Modifié par Original Stikman, 30 avril 2013 - 10:33 .

[billy the squid]

Shadow of Terror wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

For instance, you using an Acolyte against Phantoms on host is clearly affecting your skills, to their detriment.

Why? They should just spent ages trying to kill it with a sniper rifle? No, Phantoms are annoying and pretty damn strong, so keeping them staggered/locked in place and killing then quickly, removes their threat. So why struggle doing that with another weapon, when you can take the acoytle with you and easily do it? (P.s. Scorpion is better for it).

Using a weapon to take something out easier and safer isn't a crutch, not knowing how to deal with them without that weapon is a crutch.

If you can hit a Phantom witha SR you can headshot anything in the game, no better training than fighting Phantoms with a SR for Sniper infiltrators. If you need an Acolyte to deal with Phantoms, in terms of skill you'll always be beneath players who can take on Phantoms without it. 

And there in lies the problem, "it's easier to deal with a Phantom using an Acolyte" So people never learn how to deal with them on host with an SR. So they will always use an Acolyte with their SRs.

I don't like it, namely, because the time it takes to switch weapons from a Javelin to a Acolyte and back again. Having only a Javelin, and your powers makes you learn how to deal with them, how to anticipate their moves and how they behave. For instance, with a GI, fire a Prox. mine at a Phantom's feet, it'll detonate and she'll either stop and be staggered if her barriers are down, or if not she'll stop and pop up her bubble. Either way, she stops and your next shot goes through her head. OHK.

And I've also had my fun, as I'm a bit of a wind up merchant. I don't mind how people play, but throwing an Acolyte on everything other than Adepts and Vanguards, poor show, it's lazy. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 30 avril 2013 - 10:44 .

[kaileena_sands]

Shadow of Terror wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

For instance, you using an Acolyte against Phantoms on host is clearly affecting your skills, to their detriment.

Why? They should just spent ages trying to kill it with a sniper rifle? No, Phantoms are annoying and pretty damn strong, so keeping them staggered/locked in place and killing then quickly, removes their threat. So why struggle doing that with another weapon, when you can take the acoytle with you and easily do it? (P.s. Scorpion is better for it).

Using a weapon to take something out easier and safer isn't a crutch, not knowing how to deal with them without that weapon is a crutch.

That sums it up just about right. It's like multiplication in math - they first teach you in school the "standard" method of multiplication, and then you start learning different tricks and shortcuts to multiply bigger numbers faster and with less effort. Should you continue multiplying the old boring way, just because those tricks are a crutch? You can do it the other way, but using the "tricks" you've learned is easier and quicker so why not use it?

The Scorpion is definitely another favourite way to deal with those space ninja cows. 

billy the squid wrote...

If you can hit a Phantom witha SR you can headshot anything in the game, no better training than fighting Phantoms with a SR for Sniper infiltrators. If you need an Acolyte to deal with Phantoms, in terms of skill you'll always be beneath players who can take on Phantoms without it. 

And there in lies the problem, "it's easier to deal with a Phantom using an Acolyte" So people never learn how to deal with them on host with an SR. So they will always use an Acolyte with their SRs.

Actually the Javelin and the other SRs have it quite easy with the Phantoms (now that I think of it, with the double-hit barrier shot, the Javelin is almost cheating. It requires absolutely no skill at dealing with them except for point and shoot). But try dealing with just a Hurricane with a death squad of Phantoms that have spawned next to you.

Modifié par kaileena_sands, 30 avril 2013 - 11:02 .

[Shadow of Terror]

Original Stikman wrote...

@shadow of terror

if you are confused by the distinction between a "crutch" and something that optimizes your potential as a player, then simply read through my other posts. i have explained it several times.

Acolyte + CSMG/Hurricane will not, and won't ever be, optimizing your skill on the qme like the harrier would. Period. Which is why, if you are slower/not as effective with the qme (or other classes not requiring the combo) using a harrier as you are the acolyte/smg, then you haven't pushed your skill potential enough

I'm not confused by the distinction of "crutch", I just feel you're appling it to what fits for you.

You mentioned Xcal using the Reegar on the Krogaurd to maxamize his solo times, yet yesterday he post a video, of the QME, using none other, than the Acolyte and Hurricane.

The harrier does not optimize the CC capabilty of the QME, it improves his single target killing potential, but that it's not his strength, it's just covering one of his weaker areas (see crutch: your arms are stronger than your legs, so you use the crutch with your arms to make up for the weakness of your legs). By using the Harrier, you are not optimizing his strength, you are coving his weakness.

His strength is CC, his strength is TB/FEs, his strength is NOT single target DPS. By using the Harrier to improve his single target DPS, and using it to shoot everything, you are using it as a crutch and being inferior to a QME with an acolyte at CC, and inferior to a weapons platform for single target DPS.

Yes, if were talking about pure boss killing ability, purely cover the QME weakness, it would be better to take the Harrier (as it would be for all classes), but since the main goal is to improve what the character is good at, you take the acolyte first, then something that can cover the weakness. Since the Harrier is heavier, and lowers your cooldowns (and thus, your CC ability), it is not ideal. However, not only does the Hurricane have high damage per bullet, has a mod that can ignore 90% of armor damage reduction, but it is also light, meaning that you can improve what your good at, as well as having a way to deal with what you're not

Taking the acolyte and hurricane on the QME is not a crutch, but is infact optimizing the character

Here's the video by the way:

Modifié par Shadow of Terror, 30 avril 2013 - 11:10 .

[billy the squid]

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

If you can hit a Phantom witha SR you can headshot anything in the game, no better training than fighting Phantoms with a SR for Sniper infiltrators. If you need an Acolyte to deal with Phantoms, in terms of skill you'll always be beneath players who can take on Phantoms without it. 

And there in lies the problem, "it's easier to deal with a Phantom using an Acolyte" So people never learn how to deal with them on host with an SR. So they will always use an Acolyte with their SRs.

Actually the Javelin and the other SRs have it quite easy with the Phantoms (now that I think of it, with the double-hit barrier shot, the Javelin is almost cheating. It requires absolutely no skill at dealing with them except for point and shoot). But try dealing with just a Hurricane with a death squad of Phantoms that have spawned next to you.

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

[Shadow of Terror]

billy the squid wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

If you can hit a Phantom witha SR you can headshot anything in the game, no better training than fighting Phantoms with a SR for Sniper infiltrators. If you need an Acolyte to deal with Phantoms, in terms of skill you'll always be beneath players who can take on Phantoms without it. 

And there in lies the problem, "it's easier to deal with a Phantom using an Acolyte" So people never learn how to deal with them on host with an SR. So they will always use an Acolyte with their SRs.

Actually the Javelin and the other SRs have it quite easy with the Phantoms (now that I think of it, with the double-hit barrier shot, the Javelin is almost cheating. It requires absolutely no skill at dealing with them except for point and shoot). But try dealing with just a Hurricane with a death squad of Phantoms that have spawned next to you.

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

Great, I'm glad you're good enough to kill the phantoms death squad with a hurricane at close range just as quick. For everyone else that just isn't as good as you, doing that with an acolyte/scorpion will be far quicker, so that's what they'll use.

Modifié par Shadow of Terror, 30 avril 2013 - 11:10 .

[kaileena_sands]

billy the squid wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

If you can hit a Phantom witha SR you can headshot anything in the game, no better training than fighting Phantoms with a SR for Sniper infiltrators. If you need an Acolyte to deal with Phantoms, in terms of skill you'll always be beneath players who can take on Phantoms without it. 

And there in lies the problem, "it's easier to deal with a Phantom using an Acolyte" So people never learn how to deal with them on host with an SR. So they will always use an Acolyte with their SRs.

Actually the Javelin and the other SRs have it quite easy with the Phantoms (now that I think of it, with the double-hit barrier shot, the Javelin is almost cheating. It requires absolutely no skill at dealing with them except for point and shoot). But try dealing with just a Hurricane with a death squad of Phantoms that have spawned next to you.

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

And in the line of thought of Stikman, you were certainly not playing optimally. You cannot possibly convince me that you killed really fast 4 Phantoms (especially Plat ones) charging at you at close range with the Hurricane. Especially considering that at close range some powers like proxy mine won't put up her barrier of denial and you'll have to deal with her full on-host DR. And even so, this method is certainly not faster/optimal than with the Acolyte. 

[megawug]

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

And in the line of thought of Stikman, you were certainly not playing optimally. You cannot possibly convince me that you killed really fast 4 Phantoms (especially Plat ones) charging at you at close range with the Hurricane. Especially considering that at close range some powers like proxy mine won't put up her barrier of denial and you'll have to deal with her full on-host DR. And even so, this method is certainly not faster/optimal than with the Acolyte. 

Forget it... he's playing on Xbox.  The enemies wait for you to shoot first.  I remember watching an Xbox vid where a Praetorian was looking at the guy for 3 seconds before even doing a melee attack.  On PC, I would have been grabbed before a fired the second shot.

[billy the squid]

Shadow of Terror wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

@shadow of terror

if you are confused by the distinction between a "crutch" and something that optimizes your potential as a player, then simply read through my other posts. i have explained it several times.

Acolyte + CSMG/Hurricane will not, and won't ever be, optimizing your skill on the qme like the harrier would. Period. Which is why, if you are slower/not as effective with the qme (or other classes not requiring the combo) using a harrier as you are the acolyte/smg, then you haven't pushed your skill potential enough

I'm not confused by the distinction of "crutch", I just feel you're appling it to what fits for you.

You mentioned Xcal using the Reegar on the Krogaurd to maxamize his solo times, yet yesterday he post a video, of the QME, using none other, than the Acolyte and Hurricane.

The harrier does not optimize the CC capabilty of the QME, it improves his single target killing potential, but that it's not his strength, it's just covering one of his weaker areas (see crutch: your arms are stronger than your legs, so you use the crutch with your arms to make up for the weakness of your legs). By using the Harrier, you are not optimizing his strength, you are coving his weakness.

His strength is CC, his strength is TB/FEs, his strength is NOT single target DPS. By using the Harrier to improve his single target DPS, and using it to shoot everything, you are using it as a crutch and being inferior to a QME with an acolyte at CC, and inferior to a weapons platform for single target DPS.

Yes, if were talking about pure boss killing ability, purely cover the QME weakness, it would be better to take the Harrier (as it would be for all classes), but since the main goal is to improve what the character is good at, you take the acolyte first, then something that can cover the weakness. Since the Harrier is heavier, and lowers your cooldowns (and thus, your CC ability), it is not ideal. However, not only does the Hurricane have high damage per bullet, has a mod that can ignore 90% of armor damage reduction, but it is also light, meaning that you can improve what your good at, as well as having a way to deal with what you're not

Taking the acolyte and hurricane on the QME is not a crutch, but is infact optimizing the character

Here's the video by the way:

This is utter crap, sorry.

The MQE has Tac scan and incinerate, 2 excellent single target DPS powers. And the Harrier isn't heavy, especially as you should be going for Damage and capacity options. If all you're using the Arc grenades and Incinerate for is CC and fire explosions you're doing it wrong.

Personally I run with a Hurricane + Talon both with power magfnifiers, stability mod and heavy barrel, because I like to play up close, and the Harrier doesn't cut it, nor does it stagger like the Talon. and I've had no problem with the recharge speed, I can spam tac scan and incinerate all game. 

The Acolyte is simply not needed. Arc specced for max shield and electrical field strip shields form a whole mob in a couple of grenades, tac scan the bosses, incinerate to stagger and detonate tech bursts, and open up with the Hurricane or Talon, depending on the target. Talon is far more heavy hitting than the Harrier or the Hurricane up close and has a good shield damage modifier for any remaining shields that the arcs and explosions didn't take out. 

Now I beat a MQI with Claymore using this. 

This is the issue to using an Acolyte, you don't explore the options that can lead to a hugely damage dealing build on an engineer, because it's "safer" to use the Acolyte + Hurricane, same with people slapping a Harrier on every class, or a Claymore. 

[billy the squid]

megawug wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

And in the line of thought of Stikman, you were certainly not playing optimally. You cannot possibly convince me that you killed really fast 4 Phantoms (especially Plat ones) charging at you at close range with the Hurricane. Especially considering that at close range some powers like proxy mine won't put up her barrier of denial and you'll have to deal with her full on-host DR. And even so, this method is certainly not faster/optimal than with the Acolyte. 

Forget it... he's playing on Xbox.  The enemies wait for you to shoot first.  I remember watching an Xbox vid where a Praetorian was looking at the guy for 3 seconds before even doing a melee attack.  On PC, I would have been grabbed before a fired the second shot.

On PC you can simpy aim bot, or close enough with that mouse keyboard combination.

[RoundedPlanet88]

billy the squid wrote...

megawug wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

And in the line of thought of Stikman, you were certainly not playing optimally. You cannot possibly convince me that you killed really fast 4 Phantoms (especially Plat ones) charging at you at close range with the Hurricane. Especially considering that at close range some powers like proxy mine won't put up her barrier of denial and you'll have to deal with her full on-host DR. And even so, this method is certainly not faster/optimal than with the Acolyte. 

Forget it... he's playing on Xbox.  The enemies wait for you to shoot first.  I remember watching an Xbox vid where a Praetorian was looking at the guy for 3 seconds before even doing a melee attack.  On PC, I would have been grabbed before a fired the second shot.

On PC you can simpy aim bot, or close enough with that mouse keyboard combination.

After more than 800 hours on PC, I have yet to see a single cheater. ONE.
After less than 20 hours on the Xbox version, I saw MULTIPLE.
Draw your own conclusions.

[megawug]

billy the squid wrote...

megawug wrote...

Forget it... he's playing on Xbox.  The enemies wait for you to shoot first.  I remember watching an Xbox vid where a Praetorian was looking at the guy for 3 seconds before even doing a melee attack.  On PC, I would have been grabbed before a fired the second shot.

On PC you can simpy aim bot, or close enough with that mouse keyboard combination.

Well, that's because PC players don't use a controller that's meant for side scrollers and golf games.

[billy the squid]

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

megawug wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

And in the line of thought of Stikman, you were certainly not playing optimally. You cannot possibly convince me that you killed really fast 4 Phantoms (especially Plat ones) charging at you at close range with the Hurricane. Especially considering that at close range some powers like proxy mine won't put up her barrier of denial and you'll have to deal with her full on-host DR. And even so, this method is certainly not faster/optimal than with the Acolyte. 

Forget it... he's playing on Xbox.  The enemies wait for you to shoot first.  I remember watching an Xbox vid where a Praetorian was looking at the guy for 3 seconds before even doing a melee attack.  On PC, I would have been grabbed before a fired the second shot.

On PC you can simpy aim bot, or close enough with that mouse keyboard combination.

After more than 800 hours on PC, I have yet to see a single cheater. ONE.
After less than 20 hours on the Xbox version, I saw MULTIPLE.
Draw your own conclusions.

Yep, because us pesants simply have to missle glitch, the PC master race gets to edit files. Oh the tragedy of no cheaters on PC

[Sulaco_7]

Yeah, I knew this was going to be an xbox vs pc eventually.

PC has the better controls and probably better gaming experience.

XBox has many, many, many more players. That is what matters the most now when the game is reaching the end of its life cycle - being able to jump into a full lobby quickly and easily.

[RoundedPlanet88]

billy the squid wrote...

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

megawug wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

And in the line of thought of Stikman, you were certainly not playing optimally. You cannot possibly convince me that you killed really fast 4 Phantoms (especially Plat ones) charging at you at close range with the Hurricane. Especially considering that at close range some powers like proxy mine won't put up her barrier of denial and you'll have to deal with her full on-host DR. And even so, this method is certainly not faster/optimal than with the Acolyte. 

Forget it... he's playing on Xbox.  The enemies wait for you to shoot first.  I remember watching an Xbox vid where a Praetorian was looking at the guy for 3 seconds before even doing a melee attack.  On PC, I would have been grabbed before a fired the second shot.

On PC you can simpy aim bot, or close enough with that mouse keyboard combination.

After more than 800 hours on PC, I have yet to see a single cheater. ONE.
After less than 20 hours on the Xbox version, I saw MULTIPLE.
Draw your own conclusions.

Yep, because us pesants simply have to missle glitch, the PC master race gets to edit files. Oh the tragedy of no cheaters on PC

I`m including those in the category of "cheaters" Believe it or not, the vast majority of the pc community doesn't cheat, and quite a few of us are not savvy enough to even really want to go to all the hassle to look into, much less doing, FPS caps. Meanwhile, glitching on XBOX takes what? a less than 5min youtube search?

I`m not trying to start a console war here, but I`m sick and tired of this "we are so innocent" attitude I keep seeing form XBOX only players.  Like the missile glitch is obscure, or unknown, or not duplicable, or LIMITED TO CONSOLES. Combine that with noticeable limited AI, and it`s irritating how you continue to stuff your fingers in your ears and yell "LALALALALALALALA, WE ARE INNOCENT".
And I`ll give you this, I might have just gotten a bad sample from xbox, but its still rather thought-provoking.

[billy the squid]

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

kaileena_sands wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

If you can hit a Phantom witha SR you can headshot anything in the game, no better training than fighting Phantoms with a SR for Sniper infiltrators. If you need an Acolyte to deal with Phantoms, in terms of skill you'll always be beneath players who can take on Phantoms without it. 

And there in lies the problem, "it's easier to deal with a Phantom using an Acolyte" So people never learn how to deal with them on host with an SR. So they will always use an Acolyte with their SRs.

Actually the Javelin and the other SRs have it quite easy with the Phantoms (now that I think of it, with the double-hit barrier shot, the Javelin is almost cheating. It requires absolutely no skill at dealing with them except for point and shoot). But try dealing with just a Hurricane with a death squad of Phantoms that have spawned next to you.

Done it, and without the Acolyte. Hit a dodging Phantom on Xbox at point blank range. Hitting them at distance is easy. 

And in the line of thought of Stikman, you were certainly not playing optimally. You cannot possibly convince me that you killed really fast 4 Phantoms (especially Plat ones) charging at you at close range with the Hurricane. Especially considering that at close range some powers like proxy mine won't put up her barrier of denial and you'll have to deal with her full on-host DR. And even so, this method is certainly not faster/optimal than with the Acolyte. 

If I'm running with a close range build on a GE I'm going to be going with the build I posted above, using overload, but I'm also using a Hurricance and a Talon, precisely as I'm going to be getting in close, Sometimes I'll use the Scorpion. But as I play Unkown unknown Platinum, sometimes I won't get Cerberus and the number of Phantoms drops to managable lvls. I'll also be using AP IV or Warp IV on a Hurricane 7 and a Talon 8. So I'm not exactly at a loss for DPS there.

The result is I can take on multiple Phantoms, without an Acolyte, and still have a Weapon which has a good shield multiplier and staggers in close vs lolgoon spam, which are more trouble than Phantoms IMO. 

If I'm using a Javelin Gi, I'm not letting Phantoms anywhere near me, and if they spawned right next to me then that's a problem on my part not anticipating the spawn. And I'm going to deal with it, without an Acolyte. 

[Shadow of Terror]

billy the squid wrote...

Shadow of Terror wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

@shadow of terror

if you are confused by the distinction between a "crutch" and something that optimizes your potential as a player, then simply read through my other posts. i have explained it several times.

Acolyte + CSMG/Hurricane will not, and won't ever be, optimizing your skill on the qme like the harrier would. Period. Which is why, if you are slower/not as effective with the qme (or other classes not requiring the combo) using a harrier as you are the acolyte/smg, then you haven't pushed your skill potential enough

I'm not confused by the distinction of "crutch", I just feel you're appling it to what fits for you.

You mentioned Xcal using the Reegar on the Krogaurd to maxamize his solo times, yet yesterday he post a video, of the QME, using none other, than the Acolyte and Hurricane.

The harrier does not optimize the CC capabilty of the QME, it improves his single target killing potential, but that it's not his strength, it's just covering one of his weaker areas (see crutch: your arms are stronger than your legs, so you use the crutch with your arms to make up for the weakness of your legs). By using the Harrier, you are not optimizing his strength, you are coving his weakness.

His strength is CC, his strength is TB/FEs, his strength is NOT single target DPS. By using the Harrier to improve his single target DPS, and using it to shoot everything, you are using it as a crutch and being inferior to a QME with an acolyte at CC, and inferior to a weapons platform for single target DPS.

Yes, if were talking about pure boss killing ability, purely cover the QME weakness, it would be better to take the Harrier (as it would be for all classes), but since the main goal is to improve what the character is good at, you take the acolyte first, then something that can cover the weakness. Since the Harrier is heavier, and lowers your cooldowns (and thus, your CC ability), it is not ideal. However, not only does the Hurricane have high damage per bullet, has a mod that can ignore 90% of armor damage reduction, but it is also light, meaning that you can improve what your good at, as well as having a way to deal with what you're not

Taking the acolyte and hurricane on the QME is not a crutch, but is infact optimizing the character

Here's the video by the way:

This is utter crap, sorry.

The MQE has Tac scan and incinerate, 2 excellent single target DPS powers. And the Harrier isn't heavy, especially as you should be going for Damage and capacity options. If all you're using the Arc grenades and Incinerate for is CC and fire explosions you're doing it wrong.

Personally I run with a Hurricane + Talon both with power magfnifiers, stability mod and heavy barrel, because I like to play up close, and the Harrier doesn't cut it, nor does it stagger like the Talon. and I've had no problem with the recharge speed, I can spam tac scan and incinerate all game. 

The Acolyte is simply not needed. Arc specced for max shield and electrical field strip shields form a whole mob in a couple of grenades, tac scan the bosses, incinerate to stagger and detonate tech bursts, and open up with the Hurricane or Talon, depending on the target. Talon is far more heavy hitting than the Harrier or the Hurricane up close and has a good shield damage modifier for any remaining shields that the arcs and explosions didn't take out. 

Now I beat a MQI with Claymore using this. 

This is the issue to using an Acolyte, you don't explore the options that can lead to a hugely damage dealing build on an engineer, because it's "safer" to use the Acolyte + Hurricane, same with people slapping a Harrier on every class, or a Claymore. 

This is utter crap, sorry.

Yes, Tac scan is a great ability, providing extra single target DPS for the whole team, but it in no way makes him a single target DPS expert. Incinerate is hardly an excellent single target DPS power. As far as damage from the power alone, it is nothing spectacular.

The acolyte isn't needed, but it applies an ammo power instantly, which you can fire while running into the enemies, to launch off a incinerate for a TB, then a arc grenade for a FE. It's not needed, but greatly improves the single target DPS.

The acolyte does not make it "safer", it makes it do better enemy group DPS/CC with TB's. You even run the Hurricane + Talon, which means you still have the hurricane for boss units, then it just comes down to the Acolyte or Talon for CC and ammo priming powers. Since the Acolyte is AOE, and can be fired while running, the acolyte is superior IMO.

You're saying it's "safer" to use the Acolyte/Hurricane than the Talon/Hurricane. Both do the same job, some classes use the talon way better than the acolyte (I think the Paladin does for example, or some of the vanguards), others use the acolyte better, but neither is "easier" than the other.

Talon is better at single target DPS than the Acolyte, but the job of the Acolyte is to prime with TBs or FEs, which the Acolyte does better, and pretty much everything dies from the Acolyte> incinerate > TB> Arc Grenade > FE.