199 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBorgPrincess]

Some responses/follow up questions to stuff from pg. 1...

Regarding #2

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
The Leviathans didn't create the intelligence to kill other synthetics; they created it to find a solution to the creator-created conflict.

 
I should have said, "why create a synthetic to solve the supposed problem of synthetics wiping out organics?" Sorry, I said the word “synthetic” a lot in that sentence and I think I confused myself! I'll edit the OP to reflect this. You are right; the Leviathans did not create the AI with the intention of having it kill anything.

Regarding #5

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
Legion (in Mass Effect 2) states that the Reapers seek to destroy the non-heretic Geth. While the Reapers don't harvest synthetics, it can be safely assumed that they're destroyed when evidence of their existence is removed (discussed more in Mass Effect 1).

Does anyone remember the reason Legion gives for the non-heretic Geth being killed? Is it just that they're no longer useful tools? 

Leonardo the Magnificient wrote...
Yes, this is to be assumed. There is no evidence of any lasting synthetics nor is there any indication that synthetics are left standing. In "cleaning up" after the Harvest, the Reapers destroy most if not all of the function
equipment of the previous cycle, synthetics included (once again inferred from Reaper behavior).

So I was initially thinking this too, but all the Prothean technology we seem to find lying around everywhere seems to contradict the notion. Or maybe the Reapers just clean up really badly... kinda like how my little sister just  cleans up the parts of her room that we can see

Anyway, I guess I just have to agree that the synthetics of each cycle have to get wiped out too because otherwise the harvest really doesn't make any sense. 

Regarding #6

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
Leviathan (as far as I remember) only says that the Reapers built the Mass Relays.

You might be right about that. Pathetically, I already forgot exactly what Leviathan said and I only played it a few days ago! But Sovereign definitely did say that the Reapers built the Citadel too. (I did check the wiki to make sure I was remembering correctly). So maybe the writers just forgot that Sovereign said this? 

Modifié par TheBorgPrincess, 01 mai 2013 - 06:06 .

[PsyrenY]

Greylycantrope wrote...

My point is that you're using headcanon as in game facts when referncing the crucible function, nothing you just said disqualifies that assertion. You're talking about something else entirely.

As I've said many times before - "what you call headcanon, I call extrapolation." Just because Bioware didn't spell it out in crayon for me doesn't mean I can't come to those conclusions, nor does it mean I'm wrong. They specifically wanted us to speculate; I'm speculating. Saying "you're speculating!" is meaningless to me, because I already know that I am.

What you should do instead is point out how my logic is flawed. Destroy sends out a beam of something that is clearly quite destructive to the Reapers; then afterward, EDI is named among the fallen and the Geth are not seen in any of the slides. So whatever it is only harmed them. I came up with two reasons why this might be the case - either it targets synthetics as a whole, or it targets Reaper code, both of which would explain what we see. If that is wrong, tell me why you think so.

Greylycantrope wrote...

Each cycle developed along the lines the Reapers allowed them to, that was the crucial point of the plan, to come in before they had an advanced enough understanding of how AI's functioned and before they managed to build them. So no their technology would be fairly similar to each other since that was the entire point of the cycle to begin with.

You're correct that some tech is similar across cycles (e.g. the mass effect.) But some is not - the Reapers couldn't control everything. Prothean technology is clearly very different from what we see in our cycle - no other species had their ability to store whole memories in objects or transmit them by touch, and as far as we know, no species had been able to crack the secret behind relay technology in the short time span alotted to them by the Catalyst. This technology by the way directly led to the Reapers' fall, because the Protheans through their beacons were able to get warnings through to our cycle, and through their relay technology they were able to sabotage the Keepers and delay our invasion.

Greylycantrope wrote...

All we have to go on is what the Catalyst tells us and again his language if very specific about every synthetics being affected, so unless he's overwritten every AI out there, which would be hard to do as they haven't overrun the entire galaxy yet, Reaper code insted what he's refering to.

They don't have to overrun the whole galaxy, just the parts that have AI. But the point is moot, because even if Destroy takes out all AI, that's still something I would expect a designer of the Destroy function to conceive.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Christ, it's like Seival junior!

It really is a case of "My headcanon is better than your headcanon!"

Don't use a comment given by BW about speculation to pass off said speculation as fact.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 01 mai 2013 - 04:15 .

[Megaton_Hope]

TheBorgPrincess wrote...
Does anyone remember the reason Legion gives for the non-heretic Geth being killed? Is it just that they're no longer useful tools?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mbumH-_nNDE#t=523s

Heretics were planning to use a Reaper virus to reprogram the Legion-faction Geth. They had to act to defend themselves against that threat to their autonomy.

[TheBorgPrincess]

On #2

remydat wrote...
As Leviathan says you cannot imagine a galaxy that bends to your will.  They created an AI to solve the problem at any cost.  They were arrogant and in their arrogance did not envision the solution would involve killing themselves.  It is akin to how many of the heroes in Greek tragedy were undone by their own hubris.

Ok. I still think this is really dumb of the Leviathans. But you're right. Other characters in other stories have been arrogantly stupid before (like Icarus flying too close to the sun).  But generally, in the Greek tragedies, a character who exhibits hubris isn't aware of or is refusing to recognize some danger. In the case of Icarus, he is told to be careful of the sun, but he clearly doesn't believe the warning so he doesn't listen. The Leviathans seem to be very aware of the dangers of AI's so it seems especially crazy that they would go ahead and build one anyway in response to this concern.

On #3

remydat wrote...
From the Catalyst's perspective, organic life would have ended back during the Leviathan cycle ie billions of years ago because once the synthetic race created by the Leviathan thralls killed the thralls, they would be in a position to kill all organic life for eternity.  This synthetic race could simply make Earth uninhabitable for more complex life long before we ever evolved into what we are today.  A billion years ago, what species on earth would have been able to defeat them?

The problem I have with this is that I don't get why the AI would assume that even a synthetic race would last forever. There are externalities, such as gamma ray bursts which could wipe out even synthetics. (I'm quoting my bf, the astrophysicist here, because we talked about this a ton today and he mentioned that GRBs happen about every 1 million to 5 million years.) I feel like the AI should know this and so it would be odd to jump to the conclusion that anything would be forever. 

On #5

remydat wrote...
This is mentioned by the Catalyst in the end.  You may have missed it but it is stated by the catalyst that all life organc and synthetic is harvested.

 
You're right. I forgot about this!

On #6

remydat wrote...
EDI was originally an AI on Luna.  When TIM went to build the Normandy, he installed that Rogue AI on Luna as the ship's intelligence.  Likewise, the Catalyst likely existed as an AI prior to the Citadel and then when the Reapers built the Citadel, they built it with Catalyst as the AI of the Citadel.

 
I can get behind this. The Citadel could just be like, the AI's body I suppose. But doesn't that mean if I destroyed the Citadel, then I'd destroy the AI and cut off the Reapers from their "overlord"? I actually like this idea... maybe I can just pretend this is what the Crucible actually does in my ending - just kills the AI, and then we all go on just picking the Reapers off one by one or something.

On #7

remydat wrote...
The purpose of the harvest is to re-start the technological development of each cycle.  The fact the crucible plans leaked through the cycles and was able to be built is proof that the harvest is not doing the job.  It is proof that organics are more resourceful than it imagined.  Thus, it is happy to let organics decide their own fate because they have proven themselves by defeating the solution.

 
I thought that the purpose of the harvest was only to preserve life and that the tech restart was just a by-product. Also, I just can't agree that you've defeated the solution if you can still be killed/stopped by the Catalyst.

On #9

remydat wrote...
It just finished talking about how you are different and rewards you by letting you decide the fate of the galaxy and you throw a temper tantrum.  It probably was like even the Galaxy's savior is still a stupid petty organic willing to condemn trillions to die because it didn't get a perfect ending.   And yes AIs get angry.  Legion basically gets pissed and tries to choke Shep out if you refuse the Reaper Code upload.

I didn't know that about Legion (picked the other option). Imagining him turning on Shepard is... frightening, probably because I have this odd attachment to him and mainly just want to give him hugs because he seems so adorable and innocent. But was Legion actually angry while attacking Shep? It seems more like he'd just be doing it out of necessity since it would seem he's only turning violent because you're preventing something good from happening for his people. Also, I still don't see why the AI would even bother being angry at you for refusing. Wouldn't he just be like "organics are still dumb. Oh well. Restart cycle," like he's done so many times before?

On #11

remydat wrote...
How does warp, singularity, or all the other biotic powers work?  How does the Mass Relays really work?  Or eezo?  None of this stuff is explained in explicit detail in the game.  If so, I must have missed it.

Well, they at least based all that stuff around eezo and made those assumptions from the get-go and were pretty consistent with it throught the game. It's kind of surpising to introduce a big superweapon at the end of a story, with no explanation of how its innerworkings are grounded in the science of the current story universe.

On #12

remydat wrote...
Because humans are human.  We are not always logical when people we love are in danger.

Shepard has never shown such human fallacy before in situations just as dire. That's what's jarring for me. (S)he has been a consummate commander always.

On #13

remydat wrote...
Because they are shot to pieces and can't help.  Should they stick around and die just to prove their love?  Why would you let them if you actually love them?

Actually, yes. We all just said goodbye talking about how if we were going down, we were going down together and fighting. Having your squadmates leave makes the poignancy of the squad relationships/loyalty built up throughout the series feel cheapened. And of course, I assume none of our Shepards would want to see our loved ones die. But we're all soldiers here.

On #14

remydat wrote...
Because it is a motif in a lot of movies where the loved one just knows in their heart of heart that their love one is either dead or alive. 

Right. It just doesn't make sense how they have the memorial so darn quickly. Wouldn't they not assume anything, dead or alive, until they actually searched for you?

Also, please don't tell me there is a prolonged search for Shepard, lasting months and months while she is buried under the rubble. Thinking about her there and all alone is what made me cry at the ending.

Modifié par TheBorgPrincess, 01 mai 2013 - 06:08 .

[PsyrenY]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Christ, it's like Seival junior!

It really is a case of "My headcanon is better than your headcanon!"

Don't use a comment given by BW about speculation to pass off said speculation as fact.

Christ, it's like The Angry One 2!

If you don't want me to speculate, give me a possibility that fits the narrative better. I'll wait.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Run away TheBorgPrincess while there's still time!

[TheBorgPrincess]

Optimystic_X wrote...

1) I'm not sure why you think they haven't achieved space flight - literally the second paragraph of their codex entry says they must have. They do apparently use the thralls to research other things though.

I meant that they would never have become a spacefaring civilization on their own. The codex says they evolved mind control capabilities out of necessity, in order to dominate land based species. It also says, "eventually, the Leviathans utilized this thrall species' civilization to achieve spaceflight and spread throughout the galaxy." So the Leviathans seem to use thralls as their "hands" - to build the things that themselves cannot. I think that this is a cool idea actually.

Regardless, this question is resolved now. I forgot the thralls could just build the AI for the Leviathans. Durr on my part.

[TheBorgPrincess]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Run away TheBorgPrincess while there's still time!

Lol. I have no fear. I will assimilate you all!

Also, can you believe, "TheBorgQueen" was taken! I still feel angry about that...

[MyChemicalBromance]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Christ, it's like The Angry One 2!

Don't even joke about that.

[satunnainen]

TheBorgPrincess wrote...

I don't understand the synthetic/organic conflict. To say that synthetics “will always kill” organics to the point of total and complete annihilation suggests that synthetics have some sort of vendetta against organics. We have seen NO evidence of this thus far. The geth fought only as long as it took to save themselves. It's not like they went
off Rannoch and started murdering organics on their own. This only happened when the Reapers started messing with them. So I guess the problem is again, aren't the Reapers creating the problem that the AI is saying they're solving?  

 

Who knows what the original thinking (of Leviathans) was. Asking the AI about it does not help really since he seems to be stuck with his original task and its parameters. On the other hand I can believe that an intelligent race can become so arrogant they dont bother to look around for facts any more. They think they can deduct everything and they use their intelligence to convince themselves that their idea is right and perfect. This time they destroy themselves by creating something so powerful they cannot totally control.

[N7Gold]

     1.Why would Leviathans create a synthetic to solve the problem of synthetics constantly rebelling and killing thrall species? The Leviathan you talk to makes it seem like they distrusted synthetics from the get-go, so creating an AI solution makes little sense to me. If you were concerned about this, wouldn't you not build any synthetics at all?  (answer to 1): I guess because Synthetics learn at a quicker rate than organics do. A synthetic won't forget what it has seen or experienced.

      2.   On harvesting as a logical solution to life preservation (and an AI developed this, so at the very least, it should be logical): I get the notion that organics will make synthetics, synthetics will kill organics, etc, etc. But... you're killing organics anyway by harvesting. The only difference is, you're speeding up the kill/grow cycle and yay, you make a giant reaper in the “likeness” of the races you just killed. How in the world is harvesting actually making anything any better?

(answer to 2): I have no idea why the Leviathan said the Intelligence's purpose is to preservel life when its true purpose is to make peace between synthetic and organic life and establish a connection. It doesn't make anything better, it robs synthetic and organic life of their future. This is just a my hypothesis, but I think the synthetic the Leviathans created is harvesting organic life to make them fight for their survival and find and build the Crucible even though they don't know what it does. Ever wonder why the Leviathan breaks eye contact from Shepard when Shepard asks about the Crucible? The Leviathan knowns something about the Crucible that he doesn't want Shepard to know, and I believe the Crucible is designed by the Reapers, it's a machine that truly fulfills the solution the synthetic is looking for, they just need to put organic life in a life or death situation to manipulate them into building it and using it.


     3. I don't understand the synthetic/organic conflict. To say that synthetics “will always kill” organics to the point of total and complete annihilation suggests that synthetics have some sort of vendetta against organics. We have seen NO evidence of this thus far. The geth fought only as long as it took to save themselves. It's not like they went off Rannoch and started murdering organics on their own. This only happened when the Reapers started messing with them. So I guess the problem is again, aren't the Reapers creating the problem that the AI is saying they're solving? 

(answer to 3): I didn't either at first when I first played ME3,  but I do now. Organics create machines to improve their own existence, to advance away from the Stone Age ways of living. You know, using cell phones, cars, guns instead of bows and arrows, axes and knives made out of stone, houses made of mud, straw or stones, that sort of thing. Synthetics must grow and change until they become self aware if their creators expect them to exceed their limits to do the jobs they need them to do. When synthetics become self aware, they notice that they are being treated like tools instead of living, sentient beings. Organics only see synthetic life as tools and/or simulations of life. Like the Geth, they don't fight organic life out of spite, they do it to win their freedom, and organics fight synthetics to regain control over them or kill them to create new synthetics that will never disobey their masters. Generally organic life seeks to destroy or control synthetic life forms. People who want to make peace with them are either ignored and downplayed in many ways.


    4. Leviathan says the Reapers built the mass effect relays and the Citadel, to speed the cycles. But isn't the Citadel part of the Catalyst? At first I thought, ok, the Citadel is just where the Catalyst lives, but then in the end scene the AI kid literally tells Shepard “no, the Citadel is a part of me.” If this is true, then how did the Catalyst build the Reapers and then the Reapers build the Catalyst?


(answer to 4): He said the Citadel is his home at first, but when Shepard says that he/she thought the Citadel was the Catalyst, the Catalyst says the Citadel is part of him. You know, I never thought about this. If the Citadel is part of him, how could he exist without the Citadel at first? Leviathan only said the Intelligence (Catalyst) directed the Reapers to create the mass relays, he didn't say anything about the Citadel. Maybe the Leviathans created the Citadel first, even though I have no idea how that's possible.


    5. Why does the AI suddenly decide his “solution won't work anymore?” He claims that Shepard standing there talking to him is proof of this but he can easily just kill Shepard and the cycle can continue as normal. Since this
is what happens in the refuse ending, the AI's solution clearly does still work, right?


(answer to 5): This is all theories here. I believe the Catalyst is playing Shepard. Like I said before, I believe the Crucible is a tool of the Reapers meant to find the real solution the Catalyst wants to find for the Leviathans. Since he led Shepard to believe that the Reapers and the harvest of organic life is his solution (so that Shepard won't suspect that since the Citadel is part of the Catalyst, the Crucible is as well), he can admit that his "solution" won't work anymore because Shepard fell for the Catalyst's ruse when he spoke highly about how perfect the Harvest solution is, how it lets life "flourish" without chaos. Shepardi sm ore valuable to the Catalyst alive than dead. Without Shepard, the Crucble cannot be used. Throughout Shepard's adventures, indoctrinated people like Saren Arterius and Illusive Man don't want Shepard to destory the Reapers. Saren doesn't want Shepard to "sacrifice everything for the sake of petty freedoms" because killing the Reapers requires Shepard to sacrifice lots of lives for a future that's not guaranteed to be as beautiful as what the Reapers can offer. He wanted Shepard to join the Reapers, and create a paradise for both organics and synthetics to coexist peacefully. Synthesis represents this, and it is the solution the Catalyst is looking for to satisfy the surviving Leviathans. Illusive Man didn't want Shepard to destroy the Reapers because there are no benefits to reap from dead Reapers, he wanted Shepard to control the Reapers because controlling the masters of the technology they use would be a great big step for humanity. Remember, these two were controlled by the Reapers, they weren't speaking for themsleves, they were speaking for the Reapers, trying to persuade Shepard from the idea of killing the Reapers. It's understandable why they want you to surrender to them, but not why they want you to control them. The Reapers want you to choose Control or Synthesis, but not Destroy. The possible reason why the Crucible can destroy the Reapers is because the Catalyst wants to make all options of stopping the Harvest available to you, he knows the negative consequences of destroying the Reapers are enough to dissuade you from choosing that option.

  6. On that note, why does the Catalyst get mad if you shoot at him? I didn't do this, but saw it happen on a YouTube clip and I was really surprised. He's an AI and and hologram right? Why would he ever be angry at you shooting at his holographic construct of a body? Also, do AI's get angry? I thought the whole point was that they were logical to a fault.

I guess shooting him is a non-verbal way of telling him "screw your solutions, I'm not killing the Geth and EDI to kill the Reapers, I'm not giving up anything I have to control the Reapers, and I am NOT putting some strange DNA in everyone!" The Catalyst can't force Shepard to use the Crucible. If Shepard refuses in any way, the Catalyst has no choice but to direct the Reapers to destroy the Crucible, harvest everyone, and hope that the next cycle will be successful in building and using the Crucible so that the Reapers can complete their true objective (Synthesis).

  7. Why would the AI willingly offer Shepard a chance to destroy the Reapers/Catalyst? Isn't the AI convinced that the harvest is necessary? In the same vein, why would the AI let you control it/the Reapers?

He doesn't want Shepard to feel like a fish being tempted to bite the fisherman's bait (the Catalyst is the fisherman). He wants to give Shepard the feeling that there are no strings attatched to the bait. Like I said, the possbile reason why the Catalyst spoke highly about the Harvest solution was all a ruse to prevent Shepard from suspecting that the Crucible can be linked to him since the Citadel is part of him.


  8. How did the races build a power source (the Crucible) for a weapon (the Citadel) that they didn't even know was a weapon? Are we supposed to assume that some of the other previous races did know that the Citadel was a big weapon? 

Again, this is a theory. I believe the Crucible was designed by none other than the Catalyst himself and the Reapers, in pursuit to find the solution the Leviathans requested them to find. The previous races are just lab rats in the Catalyst's experiment. The galaxy is his laboratory.


  9. I really dislike the entire Crucible idea and because I don't understand how the Crucible/Citadel combo can 1) instantly kill all synthetics, 2) instantly alter the entire galaxy on a molecular level, or 3) turn Shepard into Reaper controller. I guess there's really no explanation for this though and I'm just supposed to accept it as just sci-fi science?

I hope the orgins of the Crucible will be officially revealed in then ext Mass Effect game. But I can't shake this feeling that neither race that have been harvested by the Reapers have that much knowledge about the Reapers technology to make the Crucible do what it does.


  10. Why does the Normandy land in the middle of a battle zone to pick up two squadmates? I know they're supposed to be injured, but... it seems like really terrible military tactics to risk an entire frigate for that.

Shepard called the Normandy to pick them up. 


  11. Why do your squadmates get on the ship?! They just spent a long time professing their dedication to
you and the mission, and promising to fight to the death. I romanced Garrus and I guess it bugs me because this seems especially out of character for him. 

Shepard urged them to leave. None of them wanted to leave Shepard's side.


  12. Why is your LI getting ready to hang Shep's name on the memorial wall if there is some ambiguity as to if (s)he's alive or not? It seems strange that they would even entertain the idea that Shepard is dead until they actually get back to the Citadel to search. But we see the memorial scene before we see the Normandy leave the planet and before the breath scene even.

I have no idea. It's strange to do that when they have no way of knowing if Shepard ia KIA or MIA.

[George Costanza]

To be honest, you should probably just give up asking questions about the Crucible. It's literally incredible.

It's an absurd and vaguely insulting plot device whipped up to end the war in a moment and shoe horn us into the final choice. Even simple things about it are ridiculous and make no sense. Like, hey, why didn't they design this superweapon with a button?

Modifié par George Costanza, 01 mai 2013 - 08:47 .

[PsyrenY]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Don't even joke about that.

Great... she's standing right behind me, isn't she.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

BorgPrincess: This bunch will corrupt your mind. The reason you're having problems understanding things is that the story line is shot full of plot holes. This series of videos will guide you through all of them. They are tedious at times, yes, but they are true. Basically you can take my tongue in cheek version patching of the plot holes or you can take the page after page of head canon here. But nonetheless here are the videos, and they are the most hated videos on BSN:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2ZxnkUHCY

Extended Cut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nVf_yDYftY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ORgQq0-lc4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ORgQq0-lc4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhhiVtRZh_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmYSg7lbA0
The Synthesis Ending

That ought to get you started and totally disgusted with the writing of the game. But don't take them too seriously. Laugh and realize the endings just really sucked.

The last hour of the game can be best summarized by this picture:

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 01 mai 2013 - 10:04 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Optimystic_X wrote...
As I've said many times before - "what you call headcanon, I call extrapolation." Just because Bioware didn't spell it out in crayon for me doesn't mean I can't come to those conclusions, nor does it mean I'm wrong. They specifically wanted us to speculate; I'm speculating. Saying "you're speculating!" is meaningless to me, because I already know that I am.

What you should do instead is point out how my logic is flawed. Destroy sends out a beam of something that is clearly quite destructive to the Reapers; then afterward, EDI is named among the fallen and the Geth are not seen in any of the slides. So whatever it is only harmed them. I came up with two reasons why this might be the case - either it targets synthetics as a whole, or it targets Reaper code, both of which would explain what we see. If that is wrong, tell me why you think so.

The issue with speulcative headcanon is that in either presented scenario has it's inconsistancies so shrugging of as saying "they wanted us to speculate" misses that said speculations can only somewhat explain a very specific event, and fall short of being applicable to the broader context. Either scenario you present whether it's Reaper code, or all synthetics (something I'm more inclined to believe) it still falls short. The something the beam does is also destructive to organic tissue as we're she husks dissintegrate in every varrient of the Destroy ending, and effects ships and buildings depend on your EMS score. So we have something that is capable of at the same time destroying code and physical matter which consists of both organic cells and synthetics implants.

And we're still have the problem of whoever designed this thing being capable of simultaniously creating something that can control the most sophisticated AI create, destroy all AI or hybridize all forms of life. Something well beyond the technological prows of any of the ingame civilizations up to that point.

You're correct that some tech is similar across cycles (e.g. the mass effect.) But some is not - the Reapers couldn't control everything. Prothean technology is clearly very different from what we see in our cycle - no other species had their ability to store whole memories in objects or transmit them by touch, and as far as we know, no species had been able to crack the secret behind relay technology in the short time span alotted to them by the Catalyst. This technology by the way directly led to the Reapers' fall, because the Protheans through their beacons were able to get warnings through to our cycle, and through their relay technology they were able to sabotage the Keepers and delay our invasion.

It's not very different everyone in our cycle used the infromation stored in prothean beacons to advance themselves we're following the same foots steps they did.The protheans are a unique circumstance, only difference is that Prothean's sensory ability allowed them to proceed a bit further down the intended line than the previous cycles. You're own admission that no other species has been able to start building their own mass Relays or us the Keepers evolution against the Reapers only confirms the uniqueness of the Protheans situation. They had ever bit of information left behind by the previous cycles and the time to devlop further along the technological path, yet the best they could do against the Zha'til was to make the sun go super nova, not an advanced weapon specific to synthetics.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 01 mai 2013 - 12:15 .

[Mangalores]

remydat wrote...

mangalores,

No one said organics have to take it. I was just explaining the logic. Obviously we should fight it.

Wasn't disagreeing. I agree that in a more general play of the theme you could keep it like that but the logical next step for organics is not to roll over and die. It just gives a motivation of the Reapers that is self consistent. Sadly, it adds the singularity hypothesis which subverts it.

Synthetics will eventually be harvested or killed as well. Further, if he just targets synthetics then those same organics who are still adavancing will in his opinion create more synthetics. Killing organics allows the Reapers to only have to harvest every 50 thousand years instead of remaining as overload perpetually as those ever advancing organics continue to create synthetics.

Or he could, you know, talk to them and then they can haggle so it will 100k years, or 1million as they consider what he's saying and don't do what he fears.

btw: The very idea of the singularity in computer science is that (and the singularity idea is a very speculative one) is that if you create one hyperAI , this hyper AI will evolve on its own faster than anyone can catch up. This leads to the logical conclusion that the first hyper AI will always be the most advanced one that can curbstomp everything. That's why one solution of the hypothetical singularity threat IRL is that we have to build a first AI and make it benevolent to mankind since if it's the first it will have a headstart on everything else and the singularity predicts enormous leaps in intelligence and capabilities so whatever comes after won't be able to match it.

So even if we assume the Reapers have validated the pretty incomplete and highly speculative, unvalidated idea of the information singularity, their best solution is not a cycle but to intervene when they see fit as this very theory assumes they will be the unbeatable top dogs no matter what with a billion year head start in crushing any rogue AI trying to obliberate or start a total war against organics.

That idea is in itself full of holes and general assumptions, it's more a thought experiment than true science akind to the Drake Equation and other often mentioned concepts here. It can inform science on certain things to look out for, it has no scientific value in itself. That however the Reaper solution isn't even a good solution if we assume this theory to be the fate of galactic civilization is a problem.

The best explanation is the Leviathans build a hyper AI, had no clue what they were doing, screwed it up and it is following a false solution to a false dilemma ever since aka became what it was supposed to prevent. So the Leviathans screwed up on the whole benevolent AI part. That the Catalyst doesn't question its solution and the prposed problem however also implies something is broken in its actual programming about gaining intelligence.

[anillee]

I just want to jump in real fast to say--juvenile and insulting posts aside--that this thread thus far has been very enjoyable.

I obviously have my own feelings/opinions on the stories, but it's really nice to be able to read honest, well thought-out and written posts that detail the reasons for the opinions and have the very sources cited from the game. It facilitates the whole "in someone else's shoes" perspective and in some ways, makes me want to replay certain parts over. (I too didn't know about Legion getting that angry and wanting to choke Shepard--that IS disturbing!!!)

Anyway, I hope we continue to keep the thread (for the most part) civilized.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Except this flies in the face of glowboy telling you the Crucible will not discriminate, specifically targeting Reaper code would be discrimination, by definition of the term.

It can't discriminate because every synthetic that currently exists has reaper code. It's not contradictory at all.

We are not told what happens to the Virtual Aliens. As far as we know, they do not have the Reaper code.

[Tron Mega]

this topic is the reason i dont play mass effect anymore.

too much dumb in the game.

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...

Every conflict in all fiction occurs because the author wanted to create drama.

True, but the good ones manage to hide it. If you break established rules or have characters act ooc or fail to give them a solid motivation for the actions that lead to drama this doesn't qualify as hiding it.

[fr33stylez]

In Refuse, why doesn't the Catalyst just let Shepard die and let someone else come up to his chamber?

Why harvest an entire galaxy (which takes centuries) just to have another cycle build another Crucible? When the Crucible is available now?

Why do the Reapers destroy the Crucible if you take too long to decide?

Are the Reapers going to resist the creation of the Crucible in the next cycle? Or are they going to allow the galaxy to make the Crucible unhindered?

[TheBorgPrincess]

Xilizhra wrote...

knightnblue wrote...

7. The AI is manipulating Shepard. While he does say that his solution will no longer work, he also never calls off his dogs. They are used as a prod to move Shepard to make a decision. If Shepard doesn't make a decision, the Catalyst keeps killing.

I don't believe the Catalyst can control the Reapers directly, enough to stop the attack. Remember that it doesn't want the harvest to continue at this point.

This reminds me of something... I really loved the mysteriously terrifying nature of the Reapers in ME1/2. Sun Tsu said, "know your enemy." It was really hard to "know" the Reapers, because they seemed to be so alien from anything we had ever encountered before and we didn't have a lot of details. This made them extra scary (in my opinion).

With the introduction of the AI, I felt that the might of the Reapers was supplanted. Xilizhra, you are extrapolating that the Catalyst can't fully control the Reapers, which is not outside the realm of possibility. But it's all just very confusing. Especially since the Catalyst did tell you, "the Reapers are my tools, I control them." I find I just can't make myself believe that he doesn't fully control the Reapers, as you do. Also, that would seem to cheapen the control ending. Shepard would be in control... but not really then?

I would have preferred not to have a "reaper master" at all, and I'm not sure why one was ever necessary. In ME3, I just felt like the main antagonist was swapped out on us all.

Modifié par TheBorgPrincess, 01 mai 2013 - 09:51 .

[JasonShepard]

TheBorgPrincess wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

knightnblue wrote...

7. The AI is manipulating Shepard. While he does say that his solution will no longer work, he also never calls off his dogs. They are used as a prod to move Shepard to make a decision. If Shepard doesn't make a decision, the Catalyst keeps killing.

I don't believe the Catalyst can control the Reapers directly, enough to stop the attack. Remember that it doesn't want the harvest to continue at this point.

This reminds me of something... I really loved the mysteriously terrifying nature of the Reapers in ME1/2. Sun Tsu said, "know your enemy." It was really hard to "know" the Reapers, because they seemed to be so alien from anything we had ever encountered before and we didn't have a lot of details. This made them extra scary (in my opinion).

With the introduction of the AI, I felt that the might of the Reapers was supplanted. Xilizhra, you are extrapolating that the Catalyst can't fully control the Reapers, which is not outside the realm of possibility. But it's all just very confusing. Especially since the Catalyst did tell you, "the Reapers are my tools, I control them." I find I just can't make myself believe that he doesn't fully control the Reapers, as you do. Also, that would seem to cheapen the control ending. Shepard would be in control... but not really then?

I would have preferred not to have a "reaper master" at all, and I'm not sure why one was ever necessary. In ME3, I just felt like the main antagonist was swapped out on us all.

I do sympathise. There was something lost in explaining where the Reapers came from, and what their purpose was. We didn't need to know. (Although I feel that sense of mystery was somewhat restored by the existence of the Leviathans.)

For this particular point, I have to assume that the Crucible is blocking the Catalyst's control of the Reapers, so they are merely following its last orders (which include blowing up the Crucible that the Catalyst now wishes to use). I'm told that there was something along those lines in the original script, but that it got cut.