68 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Isn't this all just about thinking in absolutes? That mother daughter team vs. is an example. Just like some of those anti synthesis posters relying on a kind of terror, or fear of synthesis with that 'vision' from a beacon, even though it's from a time before Shepard even understood the message?

How do you control your fear? Anyone (besides Argolas know..

Ohoho, you sneaky....

[remydat]

Just wanted to chime in on two points.

1. The life being preserved is not really the lives being harvested. I mean sure, they are preserved in a twisted way via the harvest but the real lives being preserved are the non-space faring species. In the Prothean cycle, that was the Asari, Humans, Quarians, Krogan, Salarians, Drell, Elcor, Volus, Turians, Vorcha, Batarians, Yahg, etc. All species that existed during the Prothean cycle and all species that got to live another 50 thousand years because in the Catalyst's logic, they killed the Protheans before the Protheans could create a synthetic race that not only killed them but would have then gone on and killed these other primitive organic races that would be in no position to defend themselves. 

2. The Reaper forces on the ground are not the indoctrinators. They are the already indoctrinated remnants of the organics the Reapers are fighting. There is no evidence in the game that a husk, maruder, cannibal, etc. have the ability to indoctrinate. That is why the forces on the ground are likely not getting indoctrinated. They are not constantly face to face with an actual Reaper.

Modifié par remydat, 02 mai 2013 - 04:34 .

[Eryri]

I must admit the new thread title is clever, even if I don't agree. 

HYR 2.0 wrote...


The geth didn't rebel for that reason, though. They rebeled because, after that one geth asked "Does this unit have a soul?" some quarians got alarmed and tried to shut them all down.

In that, the geth were rebeling against control, insofar as trying the quarians trying to destroy them all is basically another form of trying to control their population.

But the reasons for the Geth's creation will still exist, post synthesis. Assuming people can't just lie in the sun and photosynthesise all day, someone will have to do all the nasty jobs that keep a civilisation running. Both organics and sentient synthetics will still want someone else to do those for them, so just as in in Destroy, new synthetics will most likely be created and the cycle will begin again (assuming the Catalyst is correct).

A lot of people hold the idealized notion that peace with synthetics is simple, you just handle it like Shepard handles Legion. It's a failing assessment, on a number of levels...

I disagree. To me, science fiction becomes meaningful when it is an allegory for real life. Humans have always had an irrational fear of those different from themselves, it's an unfortunate fact of our existance. The way we deal with it in real life is exactly how Shepard and Legion dealt with it - by communicating with each other. By learning about each other the old fashioned way; by talking to each other. I don't think this is idealistic, it's a long, hard process. Unlike synthesis which seems to wave a magic wand and instantly create some sort of utopia. To me that seems deeply unrealistic, and in a strange way quite cynical and pessimistic. The inplication being that different sorts of people will never get on with each other without something close to divine intervention.

Humans have always understood each other, it hasn't stopped us trying to kill each other if someone else has something we want.

I'm not so sure about that first part!

Perhaps I should have said we've always had the capability to understand each other, we've just not been willing to use it.

Apart from that, conflict is likely to be a future issue after all possible Crucible outcomes. Bit of a moot point, IMO.

True, but the other crucible outcomes don't pretend to be the best solution to everyone's problems, or involve changing every form of life forever.  

From my understanding of Sync, synthetics are not fundamentally altered to something different. Theirs is a more indirect change. They learn more about us, 'may understand the way we think, but they otherwise retain the same identities.

They have been given (better) ability to emphathize, but are not necessarily given emotion.

I'm not sure one could understand an emotion without being able to experience it. It would be like trying to explain colour to someone who's been blind since birth. And if we take the synthesis epilogue literally, EDI shows far more emotion than she ever had previously. Even going so far as to "cry" at Shepard's memorial. The tone of her monologue is particularly gushing. To the point that I actually find it to be a disturbingly sudden change in her character.

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...

Just wanted to chime in on two points.

1. The life being preserved is not really the lives being harvested. I mean sure, they are preserved in a twisted way via the harvest but the real lives being preserved are the non-space faring species. In the Prothean cycle, that was the Asari, Humans, Quarians, Krogan, Salarians, Drell, Elcor, Volus, Turians, Vorcha, Batarians, Yahg, etc. All species that existed during the Prothean cycle and all species that got to live another 50 thousand years because in the Catalyst's logic, they killed the Protheans before the Protheans could create a synthetic race that not only killed them but would have then gone on and killed these other primitive organic races that would be in no position to defend themselves. 

2. The Reaper forces on the ground are not the indoctrinators. They are the already indoctrinated remnants of the organics the Reapers are fighting. There is no evidence in the game that a husk, maruder, cannibal, etc. have the ability to indoctrinate. That is why the forces on the ground are likely not getting indoctrinated. They are not constantly face to face with an actual Reaper.

Very good points, kudos

[TheProtheans]

remydat wrote...

they killed the Protheans before the Protheans could create a synthetic race that not only killed them but would have then gone on and killed these other primitive organic races that would be in no position to defend themselves. 

 

Is that a mistake or are you implying the Protheans built synthetics?

[Argolas]

TheProtheans wrote...

remydat wrote...

they killed the Protheans before the Protheans could create a synthetic race that not only killed them but would have then gone on and killed these other primitive organic races that would be in no position to defend themselves. 

 

Is that a mistake or are you implying the Protheans built synthetics?

Not sure on the rest of the backstory, but I'm pretty sure those synthetics only killed Protheans because they returned the longlasting "Javik policy".

Modifié par Argolas, 02 mai 2013 - 01:50 .

[KaiserShep]

I'm pretty sure the Protheans threw everything out of the airlock.

Eryri wrote...
I disagree. To me, science fiction becomes meaningful when it is an allegory for real life. Humans have always had an irrational fear of those different from themselves, it's an unfortunate fact of our existance. The way we deal with it in real life is exactly how Shepard and Legion dealt with it - by communicating with each other. By learning about each other the old fashioned way; by talking to each other. I don't think this is idealistic, it's a long, hard process. Unlike synthesis which seems to wave a magic wand and instantly create some sort of utopia. To me that seems deeply unrealistic, and in a strange way quite cynical and pessimistic. The inplication being that different sorts of people will never get on with each other without something close to divine intervention.

And this is really the core of my issue with Synthesis. It's a tremendously hokey idea that peace could ever last forever without wiping out individuality and unique perspectives. And really, the most satisfying thing about the campaign could be summed up in a comment made by David Anderson: "Too bad it took the reapers to bring the galaxy together." That in itself created a very strange silver lining in the entire war. Sure, the reapers' existence is bad, but learning to coexist and fight together made it meaningful, unlike the previous cycle, which benefited from no such thing.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 02 mai 2013 - 02:39 .

[remydat]

TheProtheans wrote...

remydat wrote...

they killed the Protheans before the Protheans could create a synthetic race that not only killed them but would have then gone on and killed these other primitive organic races that would be in no position to defend themselves. 

 

Is that a mistake or are you implying the Protheans built synthetics?

Neither.  I am saying the Catalyst thinks that eventually they would hence why they harvest them before they can.

[PsyrenY]

TheProtheans wrote...

Is that a mistake or are you implying the Protheans built synthetics?

He meant to say "before they built a synthetic race that would kill them."

EDIT: Ninja'd

Also - remember, the Prothean empire consisted of other races besides protheans. Even if all of Javik's people adhered to the airlock policy, there were still other members of the Prothean empire. Members who might not be so thrilled with the idea of being annexed. Making synthetics would be a tempting prospect to give them an edge against their overlords, and the cycle would begin anew.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 02 mai 2013 - 07:37 .

[TheProtheans]

I'm not sure as they would have probably been largely fighting Synthetics after the Protheans took them in.
The Protheans supposedly took control of so many alien species to give them the edge in their war against Synthetics at the time.

If they really thought Synthetics were the answer they probably would have tried to side with them against the Protheans.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 02 mai 2013 - 07:53 .

[Mastone]

@ OP:
I live in Holland but we don't have mushrooms like you apparently have...
Since your text is just rambling I will respond to the headline alone ..no you don't need to fear the reaper you are right if you nuke the citadel you destroy all 3 pistons , casper the not so friendly ghost and you wont have to die

[PsyrenY]

TheProtheans wrote...

I'm not sure as they would have probably been largely fighting Synthetics after the Protheans took them in.
The Protheans supposedly took control of so many alien species to give them the edge in their war against Synthetics at the time.

If they really thought Synthetics were the answer they probably would have tried to side with them against the Protheans.

The Protheans "take them in" whether they want to be part of the empire or not. Would every single race in the galaxy have been happy with that arrangement? Would we?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Where does the balance between pragmatism and naive idealism enter this conversation?

Because that's just as important as fearing fear itself.

Believe me, I know that as well as anyone.

Lots of folks around here talk a big game on "pragmatism."

Yet, when push comes to shove, they take their cues from the game. And the game generally supports idealism.

Just take the mission to save the rachni-queen. The idealistic response is to take the queen at her/its word that it will help you. The pragmatic response is not to risk it. Who wins? Idealism in a landslide. [Poll]. [Thread].

Given that, ya can't sell me that Destroy is being chosen for "pragmatic" reasons. This is the same deal as the rachni: players did what they were made to expect. The rachni queen was to help you in ME3; the Reapers were to be destroyed.

Not this guy. I guess you could say I "resisted indoctrination" ... in the classical (read: real-life) sense of the word.

You really need to factor in your character's psychological profile and how much that profile is impacting your character.

The real Rachni Queen DID help in ME3. Yes we were told they'd play a huge role by the devs... LOL. 100 War Assets, but the reapers shackled her and corrupted her young. If you killed her in ME1 the reapers had a corrupted clone who worked against you. Idealism and pragmatism are not mutually exclusive. She let the queen live in ME1. Why? The Krogan went too far, besides Wrex was getting mad at the idea.

You can't sell me that synthesis was chosen for pragmatic reasons either. It depends upon your character's psychological profile. Then you can factor in one's Myers-Briggs profile as well.

I'm defining pragmatism as a practical approach to a problem. Idealism represents the perfect approach to the solving a problem. Since no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, one has to adapt.

You may believe you resisted indoctrination. You made a different choice. It is not the choice my Shepard with her profile and background would make. She is an Infiltrator who can only see the world down the barrel of a gun.

[TheProtheans]

Optimystic_X wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

I'm not sure as they would have probably been largely fighting Synthetics after the Protheans took them in.
The Protheans supposedly took control of so many alien species to give them the edge in their war against Synthetics at the time.

If they really thought Synthetics were the answer they probably would have tried to side with them against the Protheans.

The Protheans "take them in" whether they want to be part of the empire or not. Would every single race in the galaxy have been happy with that arrangement? Would we?

I imagine we would not be too happy with the outcome.
But they all had a choice in if they wanted to join the Prothean empire or not, if they didn't want to join all they had to do was simply say so.
Perhaps there is benefits to the Prothean empire too.

[KaiserShep]

After everything Javik said, I was pretty OK with no other Protheans surviving into the next cycle, though a scientist would've been nice. Besides, there's only room for one straight-talking troll alien on the Normandy.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 02 mai 2013 - 09:44 .

[Bill Casey]

Xilizhra wrote...

Amanda Kenson was committed to destroying the Reapers; look where she ended up.

No she wasn't...
The Reapers shifted her opinions away from destroying the reapers...
She couldn't help but feel it would be doing something terrible...

It was Shepard at the end who wanted to destroy the relay costing 300,000 batarian lives, mostly civilian, and Kenson, who was trying to stop him and let the Reapers pour in and accept their "gifts"...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 02 mai 2013 - 09:56 .

[remydat]

If anyone said no to joining the empire I thought Javik made clear they were forced to join. There is no choice as far as I am aware.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Eryri wrote...

But the reasons for the Geth's creation will still exist, post synthesis. Assuming people can't just lie in the sun and photosynthesise all day, someone will have to do all the nasty jobs that keep a civilisation running. Both organics and sentient synthetics will still want someone else to do those for them, so just as in in Destroy, new synthetics will most likely be created and the cycle will begin again (assuming the Catalyst is correct).

There's nothing to indicate it was a problem in the first place, though. We don't get the idea that the geth were discontented with their role, the quarians just wrongly assumed that the geth would react to it as organics would and see themselves as slaves. The geth-consensus mission indicates they were happy to serve the quarians in any way possible, and simply objected to being oppressed/persecuted without any known reason.

Again, the conflict came about from a bad judgement call by the quarians, and the ensuing geth response. The issue of finding work for menial jobs remain a minor one. At worst, organics realize they just have to suck it up and do it and/or look for creative ways to tackle it technologically. At best, synthetics never cared and do it for us willingly (in that, I'm not really sure why a synthetic would desire a "better" job, what exactly would lead to said synthetic seeing this job as bad as an organic does and likewise see other jobs as better).

Also, I maintain that synthetic life is not fundamentally altered in the process. Therefore, the solution can/will still hold with a new generation of created life.

A lot of people hold the idealized notion that peace with synthetics is simple, you just handle it like Shepard handles Legion. It's a failing assessment, on a number of levels...

I disagree. To me, science fiction becomes meaningful when it is an allegory for real life. Humans have always had an irrational fear of those different from themselves, it's an unfortunate fact of our existance. The way we deal with it in real life is exactly how Shepard and Legion dealt with it - by communicating with each other. By learning about each other the old fashioned way; by talking to each other. I don't think this is idealistic, it's a long, hard process.

Don't get me wrong, I agree. Humans have always required contact and cooperation to overcome differences.

However, the dynamics of synthetic-organic conflict are a bit different from human-human ones.

One has to realize that Shepard is anything but the norm. Your average human simply does not nor ever will have the kind of life experiences Shepard does. These hypothetical humans do not learn about the geth through an actual geth. They're going to go by what they hear/see of them. Needless to say, this is problematic, given the one-sided nature of channels we typically receive information from, and our natural tendency to fear and stereotype.

More importantly, synthetics are not humans. They do not share the same priorities as we do, therefore the simple model of "contact and cooperation" is not necessarily always going to work for them. One priority that seems to stand out for them is safety. ME2 Legion maintains on two different occaisions (once to Shepard, once to Zal'Koris) that the geth need to ensure their safety before they can make any negotiations for peace. The geth chose isolation for 300 years because of fear for their safety. It's also why they killed any organics they came into contact with.

What we have here is a "vicious cycle." We are fearful and hate them because we have no contact with them, and they make no contact with us because we are fearful and hate them. Obviously, no cooperation can come of this, either.

Moreover, synthetics seem to value understanding of organics, but their insecurity with contacting us hinders that. It's telling that they're willing to establish a falsified rumor on the extranet to study us, but do not send out more than one mobile platform to make contact with organics (and that was specifically seeking out Shepard, not just anyone).

In that, I find that the Shepard-Legion partnership anomalous, and that players in turn wrongly project the actions of Shepard in this instance to hold true for all other humans so easily. As game players, we have no do not go into the game with any inherent bias towards any species in the game. That's why in-game human conflicts with everyone from the likes of the turian to the geth don't resonate with us in the slightest. I know the geth were enemies in ME1, but Tali indicates they were victims in their own right, and they are not portrayed as monsters but just a rogue synthetic faction. Our hate for them is never great.

However, there is one group that we have been expressly conditioned over time to hate and act fearfully of: the Reapers. Now how many of us reject Sync solely on the grounds that it entails coexisting with them? Because I feel that is a much more accurate picture of what organic-synthetic relations look like within the MEU.

Hence this thread.

And the last issue is, it just takes one. We saw how EDI got along with the Normandy crew just fine. Still, the Illusive Man (her "creator") did not see the humanity in her, and you cannot make people think that way. He continued to threaten EDI's safety to a point where she had to join us on Cronos to ensure the destruction of Cerberus.

Unlike synthesis which seems to wave a magic wand and instantly create some sort of utopia. To me that seems deeply unrealistic, and in a strange way quite cynical and pessimistic. The inplication being that different sorts of people will never get on with each other without something close to divine intervention.

Which is funny, because where some find it pessimistic, others believe it naiively optimistic. I, in fact, see it as both.

You brought up the glass as half-full or half-empty. With issues of conflict, I believe it's best to see it both ways.

Sync recognizes where we're flawed, but trusts we're good enough to work out our problems with new responsibility.

Apart from that, conflict is likely to be a future issue after all possible Crucible outcomes. Bit of a moot point, IMO.

True, but the other crucible outcomes don't pretend to be the best solution to everyone's problems, or involve changing every form of life forever.

I don't remember it being there to solve everyone's problem, just to solve some particularly big ones.

In truth, what Sync does toward solving that conflict is sort of a secondary reason factor to me.

I like how it does it, but that isn't the main attraction for me. Forward progress is.

From my understanding of Sync, synthetics are not fundamentally altered to something different. Theirs is a more indirect change. They learn more about us, 'may understand the way we think, but they otherwise retain the same identities.

They have been given (better) ability to emphathize, but are not necessarily given emotion.

I'm not sure one could understand an emotion without being able to experience it. It would be like trying to explain colour to someone who's been blind since birth.

ME2 Legion indicates the geth understand organics' anger as a theory, they just do not experience it themselves.

In that way, they do emphasize, without feeling it.

I think that understanding is just further enhanced post-Sync.

And if we take the synthesis epilogue literally, EDI shows far more emotion than she ever had previously. Even going so far as to "cry" at Shepard's memorial. The tone of her monologue is particularly gushing.

She did not cry, she just made a face to reflect sadness.

It's not the first time we've seen her simulate emotions, either facially or vocally.

To the point that I actually find it to be a disturbingly sudden change in her character.

You think that's odd, you should see her in Citadel DLC.

[PsyrenY]

TheProtheans wrote...

But they all had a choice in if they wanted to join the Prothean empire or not, if they didn't want to join all they had to do was simply say so.

You do know Javik was being sardonic when he says "given a... choice to join the empire" don't you?

It's like when your kidnapper or jailor calls you their "guest." You're not really a guest.