29 réponses à ce sujet

[Guurzak]

So, you're looking at 2 weapons. One of them is a sword which does 20 damage, with no penetration, while the other is a mace which does 17 damage with 3 penetration. And you're wondering if maybe the mace is better versus heavily armored foes.

It isn't. A 17/3 weapon will always do equal or less damage than a plain 20/0 damage weapon. For example, against someone with an armor of 8, both weapons will do an average of 14. (Actual armor effect varies randomly from 50% to 100% of listed value, so the average damage reduction from 8 armor is 6 points.) The two weapons will do the same damage to any armor 6 or higher, while the 20/0 will be better from 5 on down. The 17/3 is never better than the 20/0.

Now, if you're trying to decide between a 17/6 weapon and a 20/0, it's a tradeoff. The 17/6 will be better versus armor higher than 4, while the 20/0 will be better versus armor less than 4. The point being that it takes multiple points of armor penetration to make up for one point of damage even in ideal situations, and against lightly armored foes no amount of AP will be worth losing any damage.

Short version: I like swords.

[Cvoid_Sonneillon]

Or since the game allows you to have two weapon sets have one with an amor penetration weapon for the big guys in plate mail and then a normal high damage weapon for light armored enemies.

[taigebu]

Uhhh...

I prefer the short version thanks



Thanks for the info !

[M-zero]

Cvoid_Sonneillon wrote...

Or since the game allows you to have two weapon sets have one with an amor penetration weapon for the big guys in plate mail and then a normal high damage weapon for light armored enemies.

Wow, you completely missed the point, huh?

[Mescalito]

For those who like math, formula would be:

Actual Damage = Weapon damage - ABS (Armor * Armor effect (%) - Armor Penetration)
*ABS = absolute

8 armor, 50% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 50% - 0) = 16
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 50% - 3) = 16

8 armor, 100% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 100% - 0) = 12
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 100% - 3) = 12

8 armor, 75% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 75% - 0) = 14
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 75% - 3) = 14

Last one is the example you gave.

Right? 

Modifié par Mescalito, 04 novembre 2009 - 05:55 .

[ehcaba]

Guurzak wrote...

.... Short version: I like swords.

Nice analysis and I see your point but I wonder if this applies to talents like Deadly Strike. I would think not, since most of the armor penatration talents are activated and could be helpful when faciing a high armor mob.

I also wonder if this just means high penetration weapons are situational. Having that mace might be useful generating consitent damage against a high armor mob.

[Guurzak]

Mescalito wrote...

For those who like math, formula would be:

Actual Damage = Weapon damage - ABS (Armor * Armor effect (%) - Armor Penetration)
*ABS = absolute

8 armor, 50% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 50% - 0) = 16
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 50% - 3) = 16

8 armor, 100% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 100% - 0) = 12
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 100% - 3) = 11

8 armor, 75% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 75% - 0) = 14
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 75% - 3) = 14

Last one is the example you gave.

Right? 

For certain armor values, it is indeed important to calculate the max and min values separately, when you start overrunning the minimum armor effectiveness with your AP. However, that's not the case in this example, since the minimum armor effectiveness (4) is >=  any of the APs we are considering (3).

You have an error in your math: 8 armor, 100% effect, 17/3 weapon, you do 12 damage: 17 - (8-3) = 17-5 = 12. Thus, the 20/0 and the 17/3 do the same damage regardless of the armor effectiveness roll, and the overall average is 14 whether you average the max and min or just calculate from .75 effectiveness.

[Mescalito]

I wish someone would have told me that 17-5 does not equal 11 anymore
Thanks

Edit: I meant to ask: where did you get the information about armor effectiveness switching between 50% and 100%? I haven't played the game yet - installed it yesterday, but it was too late to play

Modifié par Mescalito, 04 novembre 2009 - 05:57 .

[Bhardock]

There should be a guide about how combat really works, what talents, stats, weapons are the best.

Like elitist jerks for wow.

[ehcaba]

Guurzak wrote...

Mescalito wrote...

For those who like math, formula would be:

Actual Damage = Weapon damage - ABS (Armor * Armor effect (%) - Armor Penetration)
*ABS = absolute

8 armor, 50% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 50% - 0) = 16
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 50% - 3) = 16

8 armor, 100% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 100% - 0) = 12
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 100% - 3) = 11

8 armor, 75% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 75% - 0) = 14
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 75% - 3) = 14

Last one is the example you gave.

Right? 

For certain armor values, it is indeed important to calculate the max and min values separately, when you start overrunning the minimum armor effectiveness with your AP. However, that's not the case in this example, since the minimum armor effectiveness (4) is >=  any of the APs we are considering (3).

You have an error in your math: 8 armor, 100% effect, 17/3 weapon, you do 12 damage: 17 - (8-3) = 17-5 = 12. Thus, the 20/0 and the 17/3 do the same damage regardless of the armor effectiveness roll, and the overall average is 14 whether you average the max and min or just calculate from .75 effectiveness.

So the penatration rating must be double the gap in damage to provide value and then that value only applies to high armor targets.  Deadly Strike would be useful because the penatration value would be over and above the weapon values.

[Nibben]

Short version: i like turtles.

[Guurzak]

If we're comparing Deadly Strike to white damage, then yes, there's value unless your static AP is already higher than the target's armor value. 50/15 is better than 50/0 unless the target has no armor.



But there's an opportunity cost: while you use Deadly Strike you're not using a different talent. So if we compare DS doing a hypothetical +15 AP, vs another talent which does a hypothetical +15 damage, then the damage talent is always equal or better (assuming equal stamina costs.)



Final AP = 0% - 50% of opponent armor: 1 AP = 1 damage

Final AP = 51% - 100% of opponent armor: 1 AP = less than 1 point of damage

Final AP >100% of opponent armor: 1 AP = 0 damage



Penetration does not have to be double the double gap to provide value. If AP is even one point higher than the damage gap, then it provides value as long as final AP is low relative to armor. The main point I wanted to make is that if the AP only equals the damage gap, then it provides NO value.

Modifié par Guurzak, 04 novembre 2009 - 06:27 .

[Sarevok Anchev]

Mescalito wrote...

For those who like math, formula would be:

Actual Damage = Weapon damage - ABS (Armor * Armor effect (%) - Armor Penetration)
*ABS = absolute

8 armor, 50% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 50% - 0) = 16
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 50% - 3) = 16

8 armor, 100% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 100% - 0) = 12
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 100% - 3) = 12

8 armor, 75% armor effect
20/0 weapon: Actual Damage = 20 - ABS(8 * 75% - 0) = 14
17/3 weapon: Actual Damage = 17 - ABS(8 * 75% - 3) = 14
 

*looking at number*
OMFG!
The Power-Gamer-HULK awakens in me!
ROOARGH!!!!

[Faffnr]

Early in the game the numbers for Armor are small, but later on you can get scores much higher (I think 25+ but I'm just past Ostagar).

[MonsoonStorm]

You forgot to add a BIG factor.....Speed. Have you accounted for that?

Example: with a sword, the enemy dies in 10 seconds. With a dagger or mace, the emeny dies in 5 seconds.

Modifié par MonsoonStorm, 05 décembre 2009 - 03:22 .

[Roxlimn]

All armor-penetration weapons in this game that have the same level material as non-armor penetrating types have greater AP than the damage difference. This means that as long as the armor of the opponents never goes below the base armor penetration of the standard weapon plus the difference, using the armor penetrating weapons are better.

[Osprey39]

Bhardock wrote...

There should be a guide about how combat really works, what talents, stats, weapons are the best.
Like elitist jerks for wow.

Why?  The game isn't that complicated and nobody is going to kick you out of your group for not doing enough dps.

Modifié par Osprey39, 05 décembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[Original182]

True, but for weapons with naturally high armor penetration like blunt weapons, their (damage+armor penetration) value is usually larger than the (damage+armor penetration) value of swords. But swords have a higher melee crit chance than blunt weapons.

So when comparing which weapons are better, there are actually 3 values to consider, base damage, melee crit chance and armor penetration. Actually, weapon speed can also be a factor, because enchants of any sort, like the +3 weapon enchants from mages, benefit faster weapons more.

So it's not just as simple as 3 armor penetration vs 3 damage. I question the biased views of this thread to make armor penetration look like a weak stat.

Modifié par Original182, 05 décembre 2009 - 06:04 .

[Sidney]

The bigger lesson here is how to NOT design a combat system. No one should have to understand the OP to understand if he wants to use a hammer or a sword. THAC0 was dumb but dear god at least it was transparent and made sense.



Same question arises with "more armor" or "more dexterity"...is it better to absorb damage and get hit more or get hit less but really get hurt when you do.

[Skye Kross]

err something wrong with those numbers, i think armor penetration weapons has high penetration so if you add damage and penetration its more than the equal tier sword.

but high damage + backstab = better anyway, unless its a dagger because its fast

[soteria]

The problem with this post, as a few others have pointed out, is that we're not choosing between a 20/0 sword and a 17/3 mace.



Also, deadly strike is awful, because you stop swinging to use it and it's not a huge bonus regardless. Especially once you get momentum, you can lose multiple attacks from hitting that button.

[thestreaker]

So does additional damage from runes and flaming weapon spells etc. get reduced by the target's armor independently, or is it added to the total attack damage before armor deductions are made? If it's treated separately, then it'll do practically nothing vs. heavily armored enemies.



And I've noticed the general trend is that armor penetration bonuses from weapons are really big compared to differences in damage, so while 1:1 damage might be better than AP, you usually get a lot more AP.

[Kolaris8472]

In any case, I would hope before BioWare re-works Armor Penetration they make having a Blunt weapon in the alt slot actually viable if you have a Shield. Make the Shield able to switch over as well, and not reset your Shield Talents.

[soteria]

thestreaker wrote...

So does additional damage from runes and flaming weapon spells etc. get reduced by the target's armor independently, or is it added to the total attack damage before armor deductions are made? If it's treated separately, then it'll do practically nothing vs. heavily armored enemies.

And I've noticed the general trend is that armor penetration bonuses from weapons are really big compared to differences in damage, so while 1:1 damage might be better than AP, you usually get a lot more AP.

"Magical" damage--poisons, flames, frost, lightning, etc--is not reduced by armor at all.  And you're right about AP bonuses being relatively large.

[Roxlimn]

Kolaris8472:



That's a problem with weapon switching, not blunt weapons. You can always just carry the blunt weapon in your pack and change out the weapons instead of loading the 2nd alternates.