221 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

You do realize, I hope, that claiming somebody commits genocide because they disagree with your perception of the ending, and your apparently convenient definition of the word, is an emotional appeal, right? You are trying to break it down to the most revolting scenario you can to appeal to a poster's emotions. The fact is, this whole dialog is based on emotions since it's based on what people feel. So, nice deflection, how about addressing the points?

I could downgrade to "mass killing" if that's what you prefer.

I addressed the Control point already. The point about synthetics is completely irrelevant unless you also believe that parents should have the right to abuse and kill their children. The "right to tinker with nature" is based on the utterly unfounded idea that "nature" is some kind of mystic quantity that's utterly obviated by sapient action. And the last is just a declaration, not a point.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question, Xilizhra, do you sacrifice the brigades? It is a very similar situation. If you do not sacrifice the brigades, you are not fit for command. It is a tough call and one that no one in command would ever make lightly.

It bears no relevance to the ending, which is why I'm waiting for you to give me a better analogy.

* No one gave me the right to tinker with nature. Nature evolves on its own in its own time. We are part of it. Without nature we would not exist. I will not play God over where I came from. The idea of synthesis is stupid.
* Control the reapers? No one person should have that much power.
* Synthetics are our creation made of metal, semiconductors, and programmed with logic and simulated responses. Without us synthetics would not exist.
* I will not leave the reapers around at the end of the story. They have no redeeming qualities. If that means sacrificing the synthetics races we created then so be it. It ends the nightmare. In my story no one will know the details of what went on in the decision chamber. On rescue her first question will be: did we win? Her second question will be: where is Liara?

Emotional appeals with little logical basis, pretty much universally. Especially because I have no idea why your axiom of "no one should have that much power" is more important than "genocide is bad," assuming you even believe the latter (which, given your Rannoch atrocitiy, you may not).

300,000 Batarians were sacrificed to slow the reaper invasion. Was that any less of a genocide by the BSN definition? Apparently so because they were organics, and they were Batarian. But since Shepard is going to Hell anyway, what's a few billion software programs compared to about almost 100 billion living breathing advanced organics?

Aratoht would have been orbitally bombarded, its population annihilated, if the Reapers had come through. It was already lost before I actually blew up the relay.

Still sidestepping the first one. Okay. I'll take a win.

Point two: There you go again. Face the facts. You're just power hungry. What will you do when the resistance starts? There will be a resistance movement you know. There always is. People will eventually not like reapers around. But you are watching over them, now. Your fleet is there for everyone to see. Will you crush it? Will you threaten it and tell them to stop or you will crush it? And if they don't?


I at least got rid of a machine race that had been attacking humanity and other races for 300 years, and had nearly driven the Quarians to extinction. If there was a choice to return them to the control of their true masters, the Quarian people, do you think that wouldn't have been a better choice? They needed to be wittled down in size. There were too many. Xen had the right idea.

Edit: Forgot the Batarians.... still you destroyed them. You accept responsibility for that?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 01 mai 2013 - 02:04 .

[remydat]

Shotgun,

Synthie tactic, haha, paranoid much.  I merely pointed out your statement was not entirely accurate.  You object to the scope of the tinkering not the tinkering itself because we tinker all the time.  The fact synthetics exist is largely because we are trying to beat nature with technology.

You are free to have whatever opinion you want on synthesis.  I won't kill an entire race to avoid it.  Once again, whatever we face, we face together organic and synthetic.  That is my morality but you are free to have your own.

And yes I committed genocide and I did so knowing full well it was genocide.  I don't have to sit here and pretend otherwise to assuage my conscious.  I killed 300,000 batarians largely because the idiot council were f**king morons who didn't listen to the Spectre they appointed and prepare for the Reaper threat. 

So you seem confused with all this Synthie talk.  I don't pretend my Shep is some noble dude.  I simply know where I draw the line and it is drawn when I have to kill an entire race when I have 2 options not to.

[themikefest]

David7204 wrote...

Tell me, what exactly do you think Congress should do in such a situation if they knew an extinction event was coming but the public didn't? And for the sake of argument, let's assume they're unanimous.

(I hope you're American. If not, just replace Congress with whoever the decision making body in your government is)

I don't know exactly what they would do and neither do anyone else until that time ever comes.

If they had any brains(which none of them do), they would cut spending on wastefut projects and use the resources to build up the military. Also inform other countries of what we were doing(if they don't already know) so that we can defend Earth instead of a just few countries.
 
There might be a panic at first(after telling the public), but once everything has calmed down, regular folks will buy up weapons to protect themselves as well as their town/city/country/planet.

If we have 3 years of preparation we should at least put up a good fight.

Of course the way Congress is, they won't do anything till it effects them.

[Xilizhra]

Still sidestepping the first one. Okay. I'll take a win.

The analogy simply does not work. It cannot be considered a win.

Point two: There you go again. Face the facts. You're just power hungry. What will you do when the resistance starts? There will be a resistance movement you know. There always is. People will eventually not like reapers around. But you are watching over them, now. Your fleet is there for everyone to see. Will you crush it? Will you threaten it and tell them to stop or you will crush it? And if they don't?

That depends on what exactly the resistance movement is, how it plans to operate, what the rest of the galaxy thinks, etc.

I at least got rid of a machine race that had been attacking humanity and other races for 300 years, and had nearly driven the Quarians to extinction. If there was a choice to return them to the control of their true masters, the Quarian people, do you think that wouldn't have been a better choice? They needed to be wittled down in size. There were too many. Xen had the right idea.

Were they to try, I would fight in the defense of the geth, as I have before.

Edit: Forgot the Batarians.... still you destroyed them. You accept responsibility for that?

I struck a blow that would have been guaranteedly struck by the Reapers otherwise.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 mai 2013 - 02:08 .

[robertthebard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Still sidestepping the first one. Okay. I'll take a win.

The analogy simply does not work. It cannot be considered a win.

Point two: There you go again. Face the facts. You're just power hungry. What will you do when the resistance starts? There will be a resistance movement you know. There always is. People will eventually not like reapers around. But you are watching over them, now. Your fleet is there for everyone to see. Will you crush it? Will you threaten it and tell them to stop or you will crush it? And if they don't?

That depends on what exactly the resistance movement is, how it plans to operate, what the rest of the galaxy thinks, etc.

I at least got rid of a machine race that had been attacking humanity and other races for 300 years, and had nearly driven the Quarians to extinction. If there was a choice to return them to the control of their true masters, the Quarian people, do you think that wouldn't have been a better choice? They needed to be wittled down in size. There were too many. Xen had the right idea.

Were they to try, I would fight in the defense of the geth, as I have before.

Edit: Forgot the Batarians.... still you destroyed them. You accept responsibility for that?

I struck a blow that would have been guaranteedly struck by the Reapers otherwise.

So you would commit genocide.  Got it, thx for the clarification.

[David7204]

Wasteful projects like...what? Social security? Roads and bridges? Schools? Research grants? Contrary to popular belief, most government money doesn't simply get thrown away. Ironically, plenty of people think the most wasteful use of that money is military spending.

Also, you think the public is going to believe the government when they say an extinction event is imminent?

Modifié par David7204, 01 mai 2013 - 02:10 .

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Wasteful projects like...what? Social security? Roads and bridges? Schools? Research grants? Contrary to popular belief, most government money doesn't simply get thrown away. Ironically, plenty of people think the most wasteful use of that money is military spending.

Also, you think the public is going to believe the government when they say an extinction event is imminent?

And why would the government tell the public something like that if they weren't serious?

[themikefest]

David7204 wrote...

Wasteful projects like...what? Social security? Roads and bridges? Schools? Research grants? Contrary to popular belief, most government money doesn't simply get thrown away. Ironically, plenty of people think the most wasteful use of that money is military spending.

Also, you think the public is going to believe the government when they say an extinction event is imminent?

Yes to all. What is your idea?

[Ravensword]

robertthebard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Still sidestepping the first one. Okay. I'll take a win.

The analogy simply does not work. It cannot be considered a win.

Point two: There you go again. Face the facts. You're just power hungry. What will you do when the resistance starts? There will be a resistance movement you know. There always is. People will eventually not like reapers around. But you are watching over them, now. Your fleet is there for everyone to see. Will you crush it? Will you threaten it and tell them to stop or you will crush it? And if they don't?

That depends on what exactly the resistance movement is, how it plans to operate, what the rest of the galaxy thinks, etc.

I at least got rid of a machine race that had been attacking humanity and other races for 300 years, and had nearly driven the Quarians to extinction. If there was a choice to return them to the control of their true masters, the Quarian people, do you think that wouldn't have been a better choice? They needed to be wittled down in size. There were too many. Xen had the right idea.

Were they to try, I would fight in the defense of the geth, as I have before.

Edit: Forgot the Batarians.... still you destroyed them. You accept responsibility for that?

I struck a blow that would have been guaranteedly struck by the Reapers otherwise.

So you would commit genocide.  Got it, thx for the clarification.

Where does it say that she would commit genocide?

[Megaton_Hope]

David7204 wrote...

I think you might have misunderstood the exercise. We're pretending that Congress knows about some sort of threat that the public doesn't. Not in the future, but right now. Today. Not the Reapers, but certainly something very powerful and dangerous that will wipe America out. Basically a weaker version of the Reapers, I guess, scaled down to harvest America instead of the galaxy. Yeah. You get the idea.

That's what I'm asking. So what do they do in that situation?

Supposing zombies, build fortified bunkers and stock them with provisions, then retire to them. It wouldn't be the appropriate response by any stretch of the imagination no matter what the goal, but it'd be what they'd do.

[Ravensword]

themikefest wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Wasteful projects like...what? Social security? Roads and bridges? Schools? Research grants? Contrary to popular belief, most government money doesn't simply get thrown away. Ironically, plenty of people think the most wasteful use of that money is military spending.

Also, you think the public is going to believe the government when they say an extinction event is imminent?

Yes to all. What is your idea?

Are you a Liberitarian?

[David7204]

themikefest wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Wasteful projects like...what? Social security? Roads and bridges? Schools? Research grants? Contrary to popular belief, most government money doesn't simply get thrown away. Ironically, plenty of people think the most wasteful use of that money is military spending.

Also, you think the public is going to believe the government when they say an extinction event is imminent?

Yes to all. What is your idea?

So you think the government should just abandon their responsibilities, many of which they're obligated to do by law, to spend every dollar on building the military up, basically. And the public is going to be okay with that because they say an extinction event is imminent. You don't think they'd be revolts and revoltutions and all that? You don't think they'd be any significant consequences to cutting all the money everywhere else?

Modifié par David7204, 01 mai 2013 - 02:20 .

[themikefest]

Ravensword wrote...

themikefest wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Wasteful projects like...what? Social security? Roads and bridges? Schools? Research grants? Contrary to popular belief, most government money doesn't simply get thrown away. Ironically, plenty of people think the most wasteful use of that money is military spending.

Also, you think the public is going to believe the government when they say an extinction event is imminent?

Yes to all. What is your idea?

Are you a Liberitarian?

F**K NO. Are you?

If something is coming to wipe us out I would do everything to build up the military. If we don't your liberties won't mean sh*t.

[remydat]

David7204 wrote...

So you think the government should just abandon their responsibilities, many of which they're obligated to do by law, to spend every dollar on building the military up, basically. And the public is going to be okay with that because they say an extinction event is imminent. You don't think they'd be revolts and revoltutions and all that? You don't think they'd be any significant consequences to cutting all the money everywhere else?

So wait, you think the government's primary concern should be appeasing the public and not dealing with this very real extinction event?  I am pretty sure they can figure out what things in their budget can be reallocated to military spending and what things are essential spending.  That is their damn job after all ie to budget based on priorities and total extinction and preparing to stop it should probably be pretty high up on the priority list.

Modifié par remydat, 01 mai 2013 - 02:26 .

[IMNOTCRAZYiminsane]

This is becoming a headache in ME3 Cerberus was changed!!!! I don't like ME3 Cerberus they were a Pro human group that became Pro ControlTIM meaning that reapers got to them Everything in ME3 that involves Cerberus is not going to help you since I Know how they changed

.....TIM controls the money and my mistake 

TIM in ME2 wouldn't even consider killing millons of humans the reaper indoctrination changed him and just to add Miranda said "Not all Cerberus operation's use the same protocols" in ME1 you were fighting their Military 

Evidence 

I want you to watch that for 2 mins 

And Again Cerberus was changed in ME3 they were being indoctrinated by the Reapers Everything Cerberus stood for in the first and Second game was for Humanity even if their work was unethical ME3 has Cerberus Killing off thousands of humans and other races so TIM can Control the Reapers This is not what Cerberus was in ME1 and ME2 mainly ME2 from the Video You cannot judge Cerberus solely on ME1 and say they are an evil organization when they all have different protocols 

And just saying Even if TIM was doing unethical Experiments it was for Humanity not for Him That's what i truly mean when i say ME3 Cerberus is Changed

Miranda even talks about the Salarians and look what they did! They tried to advance the Krogen when things got crazy they sterilize them.

The Salarian STG are there to improve Salarians and idk other races? eh....w/e

And weren't we talking about Jack I guess I was right Tim had no idea what was going on 

I feel like I repeated somethings my mistake 

Modifié par IMNOTCRAZYiminsane, 01 mai 2013 - 02:29 .

[David7204]

The government only has power the people give them. So you think the people are going to be content with their government in this situation?

[themikefest]

David7204 wrote...

So you think the government should just abandon their responsibilities, many of which they're obligated to do by law, to spend every dollar on building the military up, basically. And the public is going to be okay with that because they say an extinction event is imminent. You don't think they'd be revolts and revoltutions and all that? You don't think they'd be any significant consequences to cutting all the money everywhere else?

If they don't build it up then their responsibilities won't matter. What makes you believe there will be revolts or revolutions?

Again, what is your idea?

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

The government only has power the people give them. So you think the people are going to be content with their government in this situation?

For completeness' sake, Themikefest is an old soldier, set in his ways, who can only see the world down the barrel of a gun.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Still sidestepping the first one. Okay. I'll take a win.

The analogy simply does not work. It cannot be considered a win.

Point two: There you go again. Face the facts. You're just power hungry. What will you do when the resistance starts? There will be a resistance movement you know. There always is. People will eventually not like reapers around. But you are watching over them, now. Your fleet is there for everyone to see. Will you crush it? Will you threaten it and tell them to stop or you will crush it? And if they don't?

That depends on what exactly the resistance movement is, how it plans to operate, what the rest of the galaxy thinks, etc.

I at least got rid of a machine race that had been attacking humanity and other races for 300 years, and had nearly driven the Quarians to extinction. If there was a choice to return them to the control of their true masters, the Quarian people, do you think that wouldn't have been a better choice? They needed to be wittled down in size. There were too many. Xen had the right idea.

Were they to try, I would fight in the defense of the geth, as I have before.

Edit: Forgot the Batarians.... still you destroyed them. You accept responsibility for that?

I struck a blow that would have been guaranteedly struck by the Reapers otherwise.

I still will take a win on point 1. Your tactic may work in debates. Mine wins elections.

So you consider the Quarians, an ORGANIC race, to be worth less than the synthetics, then. I would think Xen's idea of controlling the Geth would appeal to you since you chose controlling the reapers in the end. But instead you would fight for the Geth and exterminate the Quarians were they to try? Fascinating.

And it looks like you admit to killing the 300,000 on Aratoht. So you did commit genocide then?

[remydat]

If the extinction event is real then yes. I am pretty sure the main job of a government is to protect its citizens. I am pretty sure an extinction level event threatens the safety of their people.

[Xilizhra]

I still will take a win on point 1. Your tactic may work in debates. Mine wins elections.

Right. And which of those are we having right now? Debate, or election?

So you consider the Quarians, an ORGANIC race, to be worth less than the synthetics, then. I would think Xen's idea of controlling the Geth would appeal to you since you chose controlling the reapers in the end. But instead you would fight for the Geth and exterminate the Quarians were they to try? Fascinating.

Er, no. I'd be fighting Xen's splinter faction of would-be slavemasters. How does that equate to extermination of the quarians?

And it looks like you admit to killing the 300,000 on Aratoht. So you did commit genocide then?

Actually, no, as Aratoht isn't a national group, but a mere outpost of the Batarian Hegemony. So it doesn't fit the definition.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

So you consider the Quarians, an ORGANIC race, to be worth less than the synthetics, then. I would think Xen's idea of controlling the Geth would appeal to you since you chose controlling the reapers in the end. But instead you would fight for the Geth and exterminate the Quarians were they to try? Fascinating.

And it looks like you admit to killing the 300,000 on Aratoht. So you did commit genocide then?

The Quarians and Geth are worth the same.  You seem to want people to make decisions based on whether someone is organic or synthetic.  I believe the decision is being made based on who is the douchebag that attacked without cause.  The Quarians were douchebags who attacked the Geth who had done nothing to them but SERVE THEM FAITHFULLY pre MW.  The Reapers are douchebags that harvest speices that have done nothing to them.

That is kind of how the law works.  Who committed the crime not who is the fleshy and cute organic.

[themikefest]

Xilizhra wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The government only has power the people give them. So you think the people are going to be content with their government in this situation?

For completeness' sake, Themikefest is an old soldier, set in his ways, who can only see the world down the barrel of a gun.

Soldier(former) yes. Old no. The rest of what you say is crap.

[David7204]

themikefest wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So you think the government should just abandon their responsibilities, many of which they're obligated to do by law, to spend every dollar on building the military up, basically. And the public is going to be okay with that because they say an extinction event is imminent. You don't think they'd be revolts and revoltutions and all that? You don't think they'd be any significant consequences to cutting all the money everywhere else?

If they don't build it up then their responsibilities won't matter. What makes you believe there will be revolts or revolutions?

Again, what is your idea?

Common sense. And knowledge of economics and politics.

Look, you're delusional if you think this kind of thing would or could ever happen. And I think you know it wouldn't work, given that you're asking me for my ideas.

It's simple. You do what you can. You fund research where you can, you encourage construction where you can, you expand your assets where you can. You do as much as you can do, which is far, far, far less then the amount you're trying to convince yourself is possible. It isn't. And the evidence indicates that's exactly what the Alliance and Council did. There are clear signs of prepartion in ME 2 and ME 3, particularly if you read the Cerberus Daily News. Just not miracles.

Modifié par David7204, 01 mai 2013 - 02:36 .