221 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravensword]

themikefest wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

themikefest wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Wasteful projects like...what? Social security? Roads and bridges? Schools? Research grants? Contrary to popular belief, most government money doesn't simply get thrown away. Ironically, plenty of people think the most wasteful use of that money is military spending.

Also, you think the public is going to believe the government when they say an extinction event is imminent?

Yes to all. What is your idea?

Are you a Liberitarian?

F**K NO. Are you?

If something is coming to wipe us out I would do everything to build up the military. If we don't your liberties won't mean sh*t.

You just answered your question for me.

Oh, good heavens no. I was only wondering.

If they've mastered interstellar travel and they're bent on our destruction, then it stands to reason that they have very advanced weaponry and tactics. And they're your civil liberties too.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

themikefest wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So you think the government should just abandon their responsibilities, many of which they're obligated to do by law, to spend every dollar on building the military up, basically. And the public is going to be okay with that because they say an extinction event is imminent. You don't think they'd be revolts and revoltutions and all that? You don't think they'd be any significant consequences to cutting all the money everywhere else?

If they don't build it up then their responsibilities won't matter. What makes you believe there will be revolts or revolutions?

Again, what is your idea?

Common sense. And knowledge of economics and politics.

Look, you're delusional if you think this kind of thing would or could ever happen. And I think you know it wouldn't work, given that you're asking me for my ideas.

It's simple. You do what you can. You fund research where you can, you encourage construction where you can, you expand your assets where you can. You do as much as you can do, which is far, far, far less then the amount you're trying to convince yourself is possible. It isn't. And the evidence indicates that's exactly what the Alliance and Council did. There are clear signs of prepartion in ME 2 and ME 3, particularly if you read the Cerberus Daily News. Just not miracles.

You see David while you were discounting our ideas on what the government SHOULD do, you forget the fact that the Council had 2-3 years to prepare but choose to handwave everything until the Reapers actually showed up

And then they all tried to cover their own asses instead of working together, that's why the Council are idiots

[David7204]

Didn't I explicitly clarify at the beginning of this exercise that Congress is unanimous? They are working together. Why don't you think for a minute before giving me pointless platitudes?

And what's your brilliant suggestion?

AresKeith wrote...

Well  David in that situation not much can be done and it would be the events of ME3 all over again

Who's the idiot now?

Modifié par David7204, 01 mai 2013 - 02:48 .

[Ravensword]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

themikefest wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So you think the government should just abandon their responsibilities, many of which they're obligated to do by law, to spend every dollar on building the military up, basically. And the public is going to be okay with that because they say an extinction event is imminent. You don't think they'd be revolts and revoltutions and all that? You don't think they'd be any significant consequences to cutting all the money everywhere else?

If they don't build it up then their responsibilities won't matter. What makes you believe there will be revolts or revolutions?

Again, what is your idea?

Common sense. And knowledge of economics and politics.

Look, you're delusional if you think this kind of thing would or could ever happen. And I think you know it wouldn't work, given that you're asking me for my ideas.

It's simple. You do what you can. You fund research where you can, you encourage construction where you can, you expand your assets where you can. You do as much as you can do, which is far, far, far less then the amount you're trying to convince yourself is possible. It isn't. And the evidence indicates that's exactly what the Alliance and Council did. There are clear signs of prepartion in ME 2 and ME 3, particularly if you read the Cerberus Daily News. Just not miracles.

You see David while you were discounting our ideas on what the government SHOULD do, you forget the fact that the Council had 2-3 years to prepare but choose to handwave everything until the Reapers actually showed up

And then they all tried to cover their own asses instead of working together, that's why the Council are idiots

The Council actually began handwaving the whole Reaper thing a month after the attack on the Citadel.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Er, no. I'd be fighting Xen's splinter faction of would-be slavemasters. How does that equate to extermination of the quarians?

You cannot logically oppose Xen if you value the lives of both Quarians and Geth. She is actually the most peaceful Admiral along with Koris, but her solution neutralizes the problem instead of merely avoids it.

If you make peace between Quarians and the Geth, you actually accomplishes the dreams of both Xen and Koris. That is why they are both very grateful and assist you afterwards (ulike Gerrel or Raan).

[themikefest]

David7204 wrote...
quote]

Common sense. And knowledge of economics and politics.

Look, you're delusional if you think this kind of thing would or could ever happen. And I think you know it wouldn't work, given that you're asking me for my ideas.

It's simple. You do what you can. You fund research where you can, you encourage construction where you can, you expand your assets where you can. You do as much as you can do, which is far, far, far less then the amount you're trying to convince yourself is possible. It isn't. And the evidence indicates that's exactly what the Alliance and Council did. There are clear signs of prepartion in ME 2 and ME 3, particularly if you read the Cerberus Daily News. Just not miracles.

I'm not delusional. And don't think you know what I know. I ask for your idea because you question what idea someone has without presenting one of your own.

How long will this research take?  And what amount is it that I'm trying to convince mysel?

[David7204]

You're trying to convince yourself that it's possible to spend every dollar on the military just because the government wants to, when it absolutely isn't.

[Ravensword]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Er, no. I'd be fighting Xen's splinter faction of would-be slavemasters. How does that equate to extermination of the quarians?

You cannot logically oppose Xen if you value the lives of both Quarians and Geth. She is actually the most peaceful Admiral along with Koris, but her solution neutralizes the problem instead of merely avoids it.

If you make peace between Quarians and the Geth, you actually accomplishes the dreams of both Xen and Koris. That is why they are both very grateful and assist you afterwards (ulike Gerrel or Raan).

I think the issue is (or was) that Xen wanted to bring the Geth back under control of the Quarians. She wasn't really interested in simply making peace w/ them nor in destroying them.

[remydat]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

You cannot logically oppose Xen if you value the lives of both Quarians and Geth. She is actually the most peaceful Admiral along with Koris, but her solution neutralizes the problem instead of merely avoids it.

If you make peace between Quarians and the Geth, you actually accomplishes the dreams of both Xen and Koris. That is why they are both very grateful and assist you afterwards (ulike Gerrel or Raan).

Did you just say you can't logically oppose a bigot who advocates enslaving a group of people as a solution?  Really?  I can't oppose the nutcase that sent me the below email? 


From: Admiral Daro'Xen vas Moreh

Shepard vas Normandy,

I've been digging through the Alarei. Just wanted you to know that I did find a few things from the experiments Rael'Zorah was conducting. Had you shared them with me, humanity might have reaped the benefits. Instead, once my own experiments are complete, you and your people will watch from a distance as the quarian people reclaim not just their homeworld, but the largest synthetic army in the galaxy. Rael'Zorah's death will not have been in vain. I will complete what he started.

Cordially,

Admiral Daro'Xen vas Moreh

[k.lalh]

Just going to chime in here...

Not even the nations who fought WWII poured every single ounce of their industrial capacity into the military, let alone their funds.

If you can't sustain a population (ie spend all your money on war), you're not going to be able to fight a war very well. You need to spend it on research, consumer goods, and in general support the economy, among other things.

[David7204]

k.lalh wrote...

Just going to chime in here...

Not even the nations who fought WWII poured every single ounce of their industrial capacity into the military, let alone their funds.

If you can't sustain a population (ie spend all your money on war), you're not going to be able to fight a war very well. You need to spend it on research, consumer goods, and in general support the economy, among other things.

And that was DURING wartime. That was WITH the support of the public. How much harder does it get when the public sees every dollar spent on the military as a dollar wasted that could have been in their pocket?

Modifié par David7204, 01 mai 2013 - 03:00 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Ravensword wrote...

I think the issue is (or was) that Xen wanted to bring the Geth back under control of the Quarians. She wasn't really interested in simply making peace w/ them nor in destroying them.

She's a scientist. Her interest is in studying the Geth. She has no better opportunity to do that than in the peace outcome.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Xilizhra wrote...

I still will take a win on point 1. Your tactic may work in debates. Mine wins elections.

Right. And which of those are we having right now? Debate, or election?

So you consider the Quarians, an ORGANIC race, to be worth less than the synthetics, then. I would think Xen's idea of controlling the Geth would appeal to you since you chose controlling the reapers in the end. But instead you would fight for the Geth and exterminate the Quarians were they to try? Fascinating.

Er, no. I'd be fighting Xen's splinter faction of would-be slavemasters. How does that equate to extermination of the quarians?

And it looks like you admit to killing the 300,000 on Aratoht. So you did commit genocide then?

Actually, no, as Aratoht isn't a national group, but a mere outpost of the Batarian Hegemony. So it doesn't fit the definition.

1. You're still sidestepping my question. Answer it and I'll move on. Would you sacrifice the brigade. Yes or no.

2. And now we've gotten good old remy into this as well, So if the Quarians get exterminated, this means the Geth are guilty of Genocide. Righto. Thank you remy. You've stepped in it now. Especially since I've seen equating extermination of the reapers as genocide.

Xen's splinter group is directly in line with you and your reaper slaves. I would think you'd be much more supportive. But I see you value freedom of the machines. Why didn't you pick Refuse? It doesn't destroy the geth and most certainly it doesn't enslave the reapers under you. Oh, but they're already enslaved. Damn. I guess, better you than him right? You'd be a better massa.

3. Actually what happened on Aratoht does fit the definition. It's just not convenient. You just don't want to admit that you did. What happened in Rwanda is considered genocide even though it didn't wipe out the entire country or tribe. What happened in Kosovo is considered genocide even though it did not wipe out an entire nationality. What Pol Pot did in Cambodia is considered genocide. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your neat little definition.

You know what? Why are we even debating this. We're fighting for our survival. Kill the fracking reapers. So what if a bunch of software goes bye bye. They signed on knowing we all could die anyway. What's the big deal?

[k.lalh]

David7204 wrote...

(snip)

And that was DURING wartime. That was WITH the support of the public. How much harder does it get when the public sees every dollar spent on the military as a dollar wasted that could have been in their pocket?

I don't always agree with you, but you absolutely hit the nail on the head here.

I guess some people need to revisit socioeconomics.

The Soviet's poured ~30% of their GDP into WWII, and just that screwed with their economy so much, the Russian Federation is still trying to clean up the mess.

[iOnlySignIn]

remydat wrote...

Did you just say you can't logically oppose a bigot who advocates enslaving a group of people as a solution?  Really?  I can't oppose the nutcase that sent me the below email? 

Do you know how AIs like the Geth came about? It's people like Xen who created them.

Also, hacking the Geth =/= enslaving them unless you subscribe to racist anthropomorphism. Legion himself pointed this out in ME2 in his loyalty mission. Legion has hacked many Geth - would you call him a slave master who enslaves his own people? Hacking is how Geth persuade each other. Mass hacking is the Geth equivalent of charismatic oratory. 

[remydat]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Do you know how AIs like the Geth came about? It's people like Xen who created them.

Also, hacking the Geth =/= enslaving them unless you subscribe to racist anthropomorphism. Legion himself pointed this out in ME2 in his loyalty mission. Legion has hacked many Geth - would you call him a slave master who enslaves his own people? Hacking is how Geth persuade each other. Mass hacking is the Geth equivalent of charismatic oratory. 

And?  My parents gave birth to me but that does not mean they have the right to enslave me.

Hacking is typically temporary and it depends on what the hacking was done for.  If it was permanent and done to create a synthetic army as Xen stated then yes he would be a slave master too.  Rewriting the heretics is brainwashing and the only reason to consider it is the alternative is killing them all which I ultimately do because of their crimes in ME1.

And finally, Xen is not a Geth.  Even if I accept they have different rules, their rules don't apply to her because she is not one of them.

[IMNOTCRAZYiminsane]

David7204 wrote...

k.lalh wrote...

Just going to chime in here...

Not even the nations who fought WWII poured every single ounce of their industrial capacity into the military, let alone their funds.

If you can't sustain a population (ie spend all your money on war), you're not going to be able to fight a war very well. You need to spend it on research, consumer goods, and in general support the economy, among other things.

And that was DURING wartime. That was WITH the support of the public. How much harder does it get when the public sees every dollar spent on the military as a dollar wasted that could have been in their pocket?

HAHA this reminds me how Money is being spent on Tanks that we don't even need  ahh...I love politics

[Xilizhra]

1. You're still sidestepping my question. Answer it and I'll move on. Would you sacrifice the brigade. Yes or no.

You already moved on by declaring fantasy victory.

Xen's splinter group is directly in line with you and your reaper slaves. I would think you'd be much more supportive. But I see you value freedom of the machines. Why didn't you pick Refuse? It doesn't destroy the geth and most certainly it doesn't enslave the reapers under you. Oh, but they're already enslaved. Damn. I guess, better you than him right? You'd be a better massa.

I don't intend to restrict anyone's freedom beyond stopping wars.

3. Actually what happened on Aratoht does fit the definition. It's just not convenient. You just don't want to admit that you did. What happened in Rwanda is considered genocide even though it didn't wipe out the entire country or tribe. What happened in Kosovo is considered genocide even though it did not wipe out an entire nationality. What Pol Pot did in Cambodia is considered genocide. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your neat little definition.

Aratoht would have been destroyed by the Reapers in any case.

You know what? Why are we even debating this. We're fighting for our survival. Kill the fracking reapers. So what if a bunch of software goes bye bye. They signed on knowing we all could die anyway. What's the big deal?

No more deaths from here on out. Regardless of the format.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Didn't I explicitly clarify at the beginning of this exercise that Congress is unanimous? They are working together. Why don't you think for a minute before giving me pointless platitudes?

And what's your brilliant suggestion?

AresKeith wrote...

Well  David in that situation not much can be done and it would be the events of ME3 all over again

Who's the idiot now?

Still the Council, and your the jackass who mostly gives people pointless platitudes

[k.lalh]

IMNOTCRAZYiminsane wrote...

(snip)

HAHA this reminds me how Money is being spent on Tanks that we don't even need  ahh...I love politics

I'm a Canadian...my damn country can't even acknowledge what it's needs are, buy the necessary equipment, and deploy it.

Avro Arrow, F-35, Single class surface combatant projects to name a few examples.

So much wasted taxpayer money

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Xilizhra wrote... snip

We have nothing more to discuss, then. We are on two completely opposite poles. I agree to disagree. I have work to do.

[Megaton_Hope]

Xilizhra wrote...

And it looks like you admit to killing the 300,000 on Aratoht. So you did commit genocide then?

Actually, no, as Aratoht isn't a national group, but a mere outpost of the Batarian Hegemony. So it doesn't fit the definition.

That also happens whether Shepard involves himself with Arrival or not. Just if Shepard wasn't there it was some faceless Alliance mooks.

[Ravensword]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I think the issue is (or was) that Xen wanted to bring the Geth back under control of the Quarians. She wasn't really interested in simply making peace w/ them nor in destroying them.

She's a scientist. Her interest is in studying the Geth. She has no better opportunity to do that than in the peace outcome.

In ME2 she expressed her desire in bringing the Geth back under control of the Quarians, but in ME3 she seems content w/ peace. Now that may be either some sort of change in her character, or the devs simply forgot or decided not to incorporate Xen's plans in ME3. I mean, I'm happy that she can study the Geth, but that part of the story is gone.

[Sebby]

Ravensword wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I think the issue is (or was) that Xen wanted to bring the Geth back under control of the Quarians. She wasn't really interested in simply making peace w/ them nor in destroying them.

She's a scientist. Her interest is in studying the Geth. She has no better opportunity to do that than in the peace outcome.

In ME2 she expressed her desire in bringing the Geth back under control of the Quarians, but in ME3 she seems content w/ peace. Now that may be either some sort of change in her character, or the devs simply forgot or decided not to incorporate Xen's plans in ME3. I mean, I'm happy that she can study the Geth, but that part of the story is gone.

She was originally meant to be another assclown villain in the same vein as TIM or Udina in the leaked script who needed killing(she would sabotage some Geth in the peace outcome).

[Megaton_Hope]

Ravensword wrote...

In ME2 she expressed her desire in bringing the Geth back under control of the Quarians, but in ME3 she seems content w/ peace. Now that may be either some sort of change in her character, or the devs simply forgot or decided not to incorporate Xen's plans in ME3. I mean, I'm happy that she can study the Geth, but that part of the story is gone.

A moderate heel-face turn, I think. She was introduced as a mad scientist who would repeat those disastrous Geth experiments, resulting predictably in some kind of disaster. She's still interested in dissecting Legion and finding out whatever they can about the Geth, but she's more interested in preserving the Quarian fleet at that point.

The suggestion is actually that she did carry out some experiments, but that they only resulted in some new weapons and technical tricks.