221 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebby]

I wish we could have given the data to Xen personally. Renegade Shepard CAN say how he hopes the Quarians take back Rannoch regardless of how they do it to her after the trial.

But we all know Renegade is the non-canon troll path(except for CB and Udina decisions) at this point.

[Ravensword]

A player needs more compelling reasons to choose a renegade decision rather than b/c they don't like the character. Anything that makes Shepard's quest easier than a more ethical approach works. I must admit that it is painful to watch how the trial proceeds after handing over the evidence. They should've provided a very compelling reason to do so. Maybe even the chance to talk to Tali about how it is unethical to cover up a war crime. Certainly the friends and family members of those that were lost aboard the Alarei deserve to know why their loved one died. That's something that Shepard should've brought up as well. 

Modifié par Ravensword, 01 mai 2013 - 05:13 .

[KingZayd]

Ravensword wrote...

A player needs more compelling reasons to choose a renegade decision rather than b/c they don't like the character. Anything that makes Shepard's quest easier than a more ethical approach works. I must admit that it is painful to watch how the trial proceeds after handing over the evidence. They should've provided a very compelling reason to do so. Maybe even the chance to talk to Tali about how it is unethical to cover up a war crime. Certainly the friends and family members of those that were lost aboard the Alarei deserve to know why their loved one died. That's something that Shepard should've brought up as well. 

I actually think witholding evidence to protect a friend is a renegade move. A bad deed with good intentions. End justifies the means.

Modifié par KingZayd, 01 mai 2013 - 06:00 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
I don't see what's crazy about being interested in scientific research and wanting to use it for the good of your people.

Rael's experiments ran out of control and killed everybody on the ship he was on at the time.

[Ravensword]

KingZayd wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

A player needs more compelling reasons to choose a renegade decision rather than b/c they don't like the character. Anything that makes Shepard's quest easier than a more ethical approach works. I must admit that it is painful to watch how the trial proceeds after handing over the evidence. They should've provided a very compelling reason to do so. Maybe even the chance to talk to Tali about how it is unethical to cover up a war crime. Certainly the friends and family members of those that were lost aboard the Alarei deserve to know why their loved one died. That's something that Shepard should've brought up as well. 

I actually think witholding evidence to protect a friend is a renegade move. A bad deed with good intentions. End justifies the means.

The only end here is obtaining Tali's loyalty. THe real question is does covering up evidence of a war crime trump a single person's loyalty? You could make a case that revealing what happened on the Alarei might cause instability within the Quarian society.

[MegaSovereign]

Renegade dialogue condemns TIM's own pursuit of control, not the idea of control.

[spockjedi]

No Shepard deserves Control, Synthesis or Refuse.

[Yestare7]

spockjedi wrote...

No Shepard deserves Control, Synthesis or Refuse.

Good!

Let's try another...

No universe deserves Control, Synhesis, or Refuse.

[spockjedi]

No Shepard deserves meeting the CatalyStalin at all...

[Megaton_Hope]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
I don't see what's crazy about being interested in scientific research and wanting to use it for the good of your people.

Rael's experiments ran out of control and killed everybody on the ship he was on at the time.

That's incompetence, not insanity.

Also, I thought we were talking about Xen, not Rael.

Xen's crazy plan is to re-enact experiments that ran out of control, killing everybody on the ship they were conducted on.

[Hadeedak]

Yestare7 wrote...

spockjedi wrote...

No Shepard deserves Control, Synthesis or Refuse.

Good!

Let's try another...

No universe deserves Control, Synhesis, or Refuse.

No universe deserves Destroy. Or Reapers at all, actually. They're total downers. Honestly, no universe deserves murder. Or suffering. 



I still like control, though. I will say, again, I have a harder time getting inside the head of a renegade Shepard who'd choose control or synthesis, what with the whole self-sacrifice and gamble on an uncertainty for an optimistic future. Destroy feels pragmatic and natural for my renegades. But it's not hard to do a paragon destroy, and I THINK I have a renegade controller in the works. 

Modifié par Hadeedak, 03 mai 2013 - 03:40 .

[Ravensword]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
I don't see what's crazy about being interested in scientific research and wanting to use it for the good of your people.

Rael's experiments ran out of control and killed everybody on the ship he was on at the time.

That's incompetence, not insanity.

Also, I thought we were talking about Xen, not Rael.

Xen's crazy plan is to re-enact experiments that ran out of control, killing everybody on the ship they were conducted on.

I think it can be said that Xen abandons her plans to carry on Rael's experiments for the convenience of the plot.

[robertthebard]

Ravensword wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...
I don't see what's crazy about being interested in scientific research and wanting to use it for the good of your people.

Rael's experiments ran out of control and killed everybody on the ship he was on at the time.

That's incompetence, not insanity.

Also, I thought we were talking about Xen, not Rael.

Xen's crazy plan is to re-enact experiments that ran out of control, killing everybody on the ship they were conducted on.

I think it can be said that Xen abandons her plans to carry on Rael's experiments for the convenience of the plot.

You can certainly say that, but it doesn't change who she was in ME 2, nor the consistency of her character from 2 to 3.

ME 2:  Snarky email in 2 about how humanity will be out the results of her research from whatever she found on the ship.

ME 3:  You have to convince her that rescuing people is more important than salvaging geth tech in the middle of a war zone.

Seems pretty consistent to me.

[mass perfection]

The endings aren't paragon or renegade.

[Mangalores]

Hadeedak wrote...
...

I still like control, though. I will say, again, I have a harder time getting inside the head of a renegade Shepard who'd choose control or synthesis, what with the whole self-sacrifice and gamble on an uncertainty for an optimistic future. Destroy feels pragmatic and natural for my renegades. But it's not hard to do a paragon destroy, and I THINK I have a renegade controller in the works. 

Control would be Ok if hadn't this creepy Godking monologue by Shepard. If control needs to end with Shepard not flying every last Reaper into a star I'd imagine some King Arthur scenario where he leads them back to Darkspace until the time the galaxy needs them the least invasive. Everything else aka what we get is Orwellian and this ending even has a difference between renegad and paragon. That doesn't make it better.

[aj2070]

HunterSho21 wrote...

I think the Destroy option sucks. You spend all this time uniting the Geth and Quarians and then you just kill the Geth? Stupid. Not to mention killing EDI. A big theme in ME3 is whether AI is a forum of life. The destroy ending just negates that.

To me it comes down to a phrase I (re)discovered in game; the calculus of war.  Garrus and Shepard have a dicussion, I belive shortly after Palavin (Manae) about how turians can take massive losses and still consider the war a win as long as one turian is left.  Humans (I) want to save everyone.  I would like to have seen both Ashley and Kaidan survive Vermire but it simply is not an option.  Sure I would love to have seen a destroy option that leaves the geth and EDI alive but as EDI has already said she is willing to sacrifice herself to ensure the Reapers are destroyed and as a fellow synthetic, she finds them repulsive, I can regretably accept her loss.  I feel worse about the geth as they are destroyed by the very thing that made them fully aware.

What it comes down to is how much are you (am I) willing to pay to save everyone.  The other two solutions cost too much in my opinion.  Option one, rewriting life so everything is a cyborg (a solution provided by an AI not smart enough to consider organics would eventually find it and an indoctrinated Spectre) is repugnant.  The other option, becoming the enemy to "control" them is proposed by the same flawed AI and its latest thrall.  At the end of WW2, who really would put forward becoming Mousolini, Hitler, or Tojo to control their forces.  Besides a few minutes earler Shepard told the Illusive man no one (humanity) is not ready for that much power.  Why are we now ready because a flawed AI says we are?

In the end, the stated goal (mission) from the end of Mass Effect is to destroy the reapers.  Not understand them, not apease them (synthesis), and not to become them (control).  Everyone who is not Saren or The Illusive Man knows this.

Modifié par aj2070, 03 mai 2013 - 01:11 .

[Argolas]

aj2070 wrote...

HunterSho21 wrote...

I think the Destroy option sucks. You spend all this time uniting the Geth and Quarians and then you just kill the Geth? Stupid. Not to mention killing EDI. A big theme in ME3 is whether AI is a forum of life. The destroy ending just negates that.

To me it comes down to a phrase I (re)discovered in game; the calculus of war.  Garrus and Shepard have a dicussion, I belive shortly after Palavin (Manae) about how turians can take massive losses and still consider the war a win as long as one turian is left.  Humans (I) want to save everyone.  I would like to have seen both Ashley and Kaidan survive Vermire but it simply is not an option.  Sure I would love to have seen a destroy option that leaves the geth and EDI alive but as EDI has already said she is willing to sacrifice herself to ensure the Reapers are destroyed and as a fellow synthetic, she finds them repulsive, I can regretably accept her loss.  I feel worse about the geth as they are destroyed by the very thing that made them fully aware.

What it comes down to is how much are you (am I) willing to pay to save everyone.  The other two solutions cost too much in my opinion.  Option one, rewriting life so everything is a cyborg (a solution provided by an AI not smart enough to consider organics would eventually find it and an indoctrinated Spectre) is repugnant.  The other option, becoming the enemy to "control" them is proposed by the same flawed AI and its latest thrall.  At the end of WW2, who really would put forward becoming Mousolini, Hitler, or Tojo to control their forces.  Besides a few minutes earler Shepard told the Illusive man no one (humanity) is not ready for that much power.  Why are we now ready because a flawed AI says we are?

In the end, the stated goal (mission) from the end of Mass Effect is to destroy the reapers.  Not understand them, not apease them (synthesis), and not to become them (control).  Everyone who is not Saren or The Illusive Man knows this.

I was prepared to sacrifice. If I had to, say, blow up the Sol System in order to win, that'd be one thing. Earth would be lost and humans need a new homeworld, fine, but that's better than wiping out ALL SYNTHETIC LIFE. I hate to rob the galaxy of diversity.

Modifié par Argolas, 03 mai 2013 - 01:20 .

[robertthebard]

Argolas wrote...

I was prepared to sacrifice. If I had to, say, blow up the Sol System in order to win, that'd be one thing. Earth would be lost and humans need a new homeworld, fine, but that's better than wiping out ALL SYNTHETIC LIFE. I hate to rob the galaxy of diversity.

So synthetic life is the only diversity in the galaxy?

[aj2070]

Argolas wrote...

I was prepared to sacrifice. If I had to, say, blow up the Sol System in order to win, that'd be one thing. Earth would be lost and humans need a new homeworld, fine, but that's better than wiping out ALL SYNTHETIC LIFE. I hate to rob the galaxy of diversity.

So do I.  But I am also not willing to become a Reaper thrall or "rewrite life" in the name of diversity.  Even in an RPG setting, I don't see the benefits outweighing the costs.

Modifié par aj2070, 03 mai 2013 - 01:49 .

[Hadeedak]

Renegade control is creepy as all getout. Which is one of the many reasons I prefer destroy for my renegades. Besides, most of them tend towards emotionally stunted wisecracker, rather than MUAHAHA, I HAVE THE POWER renegades. We are still talking renegade, right?