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[The Night Mammoth]

tickle267 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Everyone understands this now, Eterna is strawmanning. Xzibit and the associated argument hasn't been used seriously in months.

People just have a hard time accepting this as the new reality because it doesn't match anything they've been told before.

It's a paradigm shift, and one pulled off with all the grace of a train going off the rails.

was the sarcasm not obvious enough? (though i've now added clarification)

Fairly obvious, because really, no one's used that seriously for a long time now. It died out as soon as the Extended Cut was released.

[Yougotcarved1]

Interesting. So I'm beginning to gather that its less about making absolute sense and more about making sense from a storytelling point of view. Like if Harry Potter ended with Harry getting run over by a bus. Yeah sure it makes absolute sense because people do get run over by buses. But it really doesn't make sense from a storytelling point of view.

I always got the impression people were questioning the absolute logic rather than the storytelling, hence my initial confusion.

[Yougotcarved1]

double post

Modifié par Yougotcarved1, 30 avril 2013 - 10:20 .

[The Night Mammoth]

They aren't questioning the basic premise that the Catalyst is doing this as a means of prevention, but that doesn't mean there aren't holes and questions.

For example; why? Why was the Catalyst made to do this? How did it come to its conclusion? Why did it choose the Reapers as its ideal solution?

And yeah, its conflicting in large part with of previous things and ideas, like synthetics actually being more like us and worthy of friendship and existence, cooperation and unity, self-determination, and so on.  It's hard to deny there's a message of intolerance and almost racism given the context. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 30 avril 2013 - 10:26 .

[StoneSwords]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

Interesting. So I'm beginning to gather that its less about making absolute sense and more about making sense from a storytelling point of view. Like if Harry Potter ended with Harry getting run over by a bus. Yeah sure it makes absolute sense because people do get run over by buses. But it really doesn't make sense from a storytelling point of view.

I always got the impression people were questioning the absolute logic rather than the storytelling, hence my initial confusion.

Honestly, I think it's a little bit of each, because storywise, it is pretty jarring in that a theme that was always kind of in the background throughout the series, is all of a sudden front and center.  On top of that, the kid is basing his "logic" off of assumptions, instead of cold, hard facts.  He assumes that synthetics will wipe out all organics eventually, when in fact, the Geth have proven the opposite.  There's a whole united galaxy, including organics and synthetics sitting right outside his doorstep ready to oppose him and the Reapers.

[o Ventus]

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Modifié par o Ventus, 01 mai 2013 - 12:19 .

[Aaleel]

I understand exactly what the Catalyst said it was doing, but it still doesn't make a lick of sense.

The reapers have killed every organic race that didn't go extinct on its own. Anyone that is 'saved' as a result of this endeavor they're eventually going to kill anyway, so they're not saving anyone.

They may as well just let it play out, at least left alone the eventual death of every organic race all at once or staggered is not guaranteed.

Modifié par Aaleel, 01 mai 2013 - 12:20 .

[Clayless]

Pretty sure the Catalyst was preserving all life by harvesting them into Reaper form, to stop the conflict between synthetics and organics.

[SmokePants]

It's more astutely stated, "Synthetics killing SOME organics to prevent synthetics from killing ALL organics."

Even if you take synthetics out of the equation, the harvest is probably still a "good idea". If the Reapers hadn't been killing everyone for eons, it is likely Earth would have been colonized and/or picked clean by aliens and humans would never have evolved. It's the cleansing forest fire of the galaxy.

[o Ventus]

Robosexual wrote...

Pretty sure the Catalyst was preserving all life by harvesting them into Reaper form, to stop the conflict between synthetics and organics.

not sure if srs

[Artifex_Imperius]

nah reapers just trying to prevent organics from making the ultimate synthetic that may one day supass the reapers in death and destruction category so yeah i understand their logic. its righteous in someway.

but their logic denies my right to asari p*ssy. which in my world is unacceptable so i will destroy the reapers everytime. and accept the consequences.

[StoneSwords]

o Ventus wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Pretty sure the Catalyst was preserving all life by harvesting them into Reaper form, to stop the conflict between synthetics and organics.

not sure if srs

I sure hope not....

[o Ventus]

SmokePants wrote...

It's more astutely stated, "Synthetics killing SOME organics to prevent synthetics from killing ALL organics."

It really may as well be "all" organics, considering the harvests are cyclical. The organics left over from this cycle are harvested in the next. Ergo, nothing from this cycle survives. Continue ad infinitum.

Not that "some" is better than "all", by any means.

[Argolas]

If Synthetics don't rebel against organics the Reapers step in and make sure they do...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Except for the important detail where they're not "killing off" organic species.

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Except for the important detail where they're not "killing off" organic species.

. They are blending them into a grey pulp.  That is not continuing life.

[StoneSwords]

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Except for the important detail where they're not "killing off" organic species.

. They are blending them into a grey pulp.  That is not continuing life.

Agreed.  Organic goo is the same as dead.  There's no preservation going on here.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Except for the important detail where they're not "killing off" organic species.

. They are blending them into a grey pulp.  That is not continuing life.

Organic minds are uploaded and effectively immortalized within each Reaper.

Legion's dialogue in ME2 establishes this clearly.

The catalyst confirms it too.

[Aaleel]

StoneSwords wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Except for the important detail where they're not "killing off" organic species.

. They are blending them into a grey pulp.  That is not continuing life.

Agreed.  Organic goo is the same as dead.  There's no preservation going on here.

Yeah, nothing I saw going on in the collector base screamed preservation of life to me.  At what point when the crew were getting sucked down those tubes and diced into goo were their minds being preserved.

Modifié par Aaleel, 01 mai 2013 - 01:06 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

^ Luckily HYR explains it 2 posts up.

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Organic minds are uploaded and effectively immortalized within each Reaper.

Legion's dialogue in ME2 establishes this clearly.

The catalyst confirms it too.

. Legion's dialogue indicates that the minds are uploaded, and then conjoined, merged into one mind.  That is not a continuation of the original's identity or the body in any way.  What the Catalyst thinks of a continuation is very different from what most others would consider a continuity.

[Steelcan]

Also I find Legion's dialogue somewhat suspect.

[AresKeith]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Except for the important detail where they're not "killing off" organic species.

Do the organic species still exist or consumed by the Reapers?