150 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Except for the important detail where they're not "killing off" organic species.

. They are blending them into a grey pulp.  That is not continuing life.

Organic minds are uploaded and effectively immortalized within each Reaper.

Legion's dialogue in ME2 establishes this clearly.

The catalyst confirms it too.

And Synthesis again confirms it.

[StoneSwords]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That still doesn't detract from the Catalyst's actions at their most basic premise, that being killing off organic life with synthetics to preserve organic life.

No matter how you dress it up, it is, at its fundamental basics, self-fulfilling circle logic.

Except for the important detail where they're not "killing off" organic species.

. They are blending them into a grey pulp.  That is not continuing life.

Organic minds are uploaded and effectively immortalized within each Reaper.

Legion's dialogue in ME2 establishes this clearly.

The catalyst confirms it too.

Their knowledge is uploaded within each reaper.  The people themselves and their culture are long gone.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Steelcan wrote...

. Legion's dialogue indicates that the minds are uploaded, and then conjoined, merged into one mind.  That is not a continuation of the original's identity or the body in any way.  What the Catalyst thinks of a continuation is very different from what most others would consider a continuity.

So long as the individual minds are preserved, the goal is still fulfilled. It's not like they're not lost when conjoined.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

StoneSwords wrote...

Their knowledge is uploaded within each reaper.  The people themselves and their culture are long gone.

If the catalyst is right, the people and culture were going to be lost anyway.

[Mangalores]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

StoneSwords wrote...

Their knowledge is uploaded within each reaper.  The people themselves and their culture are long gone.

If the catalyst is right, the people and culture were going to be lost anyway.

Aside the problem the people might have had another 10 million years of prosperous culture and history in front of them without him and that potential was lost.

Modifié par Mangalores, 01 mai 2013 - 01:28 .

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. Legion's dialogue indicates that the minds are uploaded, and then conjoined, merged into one mind.  That is not a continuation of the original's identity or the body in any way.  What the Catalyst thinks of a continuation is very different from what most others would consider a continuity.

So long as the individual minds are preserved, the goal is still fulfilled. It's not like they're not lost when conjoined.

. If threw in several thousand minds together and they formed into one mind as Sovereign and Hafbinger, and the Reaper on Rannoch indicate , that would show that the individual minds are lost.

[AresKeith]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

StoneSwords wrote...

Their knowledge is uploaded within each reaper.  The people themselves and their culture are long gone.

If the catalyst is right, the people and culture were going to be lost anyway.

Right in what? 

[StoneSwords]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

StoneSwords wrote...

Their knowledge is uploaded within each reaper.  The people themselves and their culture are long gone.

If the catalyst is right, the people and culture were going to be lost anyway.

Long gone when?  in millions of years?  Billions of years?  Trillions? That's still alot of developing and evolving the Reapers were cutting short for no good reason

[Clayless]

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. Legion's dialogue indicates that the minds are uploaded, and then conjoined, merged into one mind.  That is not a continuation of the original's identity or the body in any way.  What the Catalyst thinks of a continuation is very different from what most others would consider a continuity.

So long as the individual minds are preserved, the goal is still fulfilled. It's not like they're not lost when conjoined.

. If threw in several thousand minds together and they formed into one mind as Sovereign and Hafbinger, and the Reaper on Rannoch indicate , that would show that the individual minds are lost.

Not necessarily, Legion is an indication that one mind can be created by thousand of minds.

[StoneSwords]

Robosexual wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. Legion's dialogue indicates that the minds are uploaded, and then conjoined, merged into one mind.  That is not a continuation of the original's identity or the body in any way.  What the Catalyst thinks of a continuation is very different from what most others would consider a continuity.

So long as the individual minds are preserved, the goal is still fulfilled. It's not like they're not lost when conjoined.

. If threw in several thousand minds together and they formed into one mind as Sovereign and Hafbinger, and the Reaper on Rannoch indicate , that would show that the individual minds are lost.

Not necessarily, Legion is an indication that one mind can be created by thousand of minds.

No, Legion was thousands of programs coming together to create one intelligence, not thousands of minds.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

StoneSwords wrote...

Their knowledge is uploaded within each reaper.  The people themselves and their culture are long gone.

If the catalyst is right, the people and culture were going to be lost anyway.

Then in what way is the Catalyst's method advantageous? All it does is cut any development short.

[o Ventus]

StoneSwords wrote...

No, Legion was thousands of programs coming together to create one intelligence, not thousands of minds.

Programs designed for the explicit purpose of increasing efficiency when networked together, no less. Vastly different from an organic mind.

Modifié par o Ventus, 01 mai 2013 - 01:41 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Steelcan wrote...

. If threw in several thousand minds together and they formed into one mind as Sovereign and Hafbinger, and the Reaper on Rannoch indicate , that would show that the individual minds are lost.

If all the information of each individual mind makes up that collective, they're all still individually preserved.

Note: "mind" neet not imply "consciousness." (I think that's where you and I are seeing things differently).

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

If all the information of each individual mind makes up that collective, they're all still individually preserved.

Note: "mind" neet not imply "consciousness." (I think that's where you and I are seeing things differently).

If "mind" doesn't imply "consciousness", then what was the purpose of collecting the information in the first place? That's like collecting a library's worth of knowledge, but all the pages were torn from the books.

So each mind is a vegetable then? Just billions and billions of Terri Schiavos conjoined together?

That's actually worse.

[Clayless]

StoneSwords wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Not necessarily, Legion is an indication that one mind can be created by thousand of minds.

No, Legion was thousands of programs coming together to create one intelligence, not thousands of minds.

That doesn't change the fact that the situation isn't necessarily the same to a Reaper. The Geth show that things can work differently, organics and synthetics aren't the same, a Reaper is a whole different ballpark.

[StoneSwords]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. If threw in several thousand minds together and they formed into one mind as Sovereign and Hafbinger, and the Reaper on Rannoch indicate , that would show that the individual minds are lost.

If all the information of each individual mind makes up that collective, they're all still individually preserved.

Note: "mind" neet not imply "consciousness." (I think that's where you and I are seeing things differently).

So that means they just preserve the knowledge, but throw away the personality, which is what truly makes the person who they are.  Therefore, with the individual personalities lost, the people themselves are dead, and only their knowledge remains.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Mangalores wrote...

Aside the problem the people might have had another 10 million years of prosperous culture and history in front of them without him and that potential was lost.

That's not exactly much consolation for when they're dead.

o Ventus wrote...

Then in what way is the Catalyst's method advantageous? All it does is cut any development short.

Problem: organic species going extinct. Solution: immortalize organics into synthetic bodies.

Advantage: we technically don't die.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Problem: organic species going extinct. Solution: immortalize organics into synthetic bodies.

Advantage: we technically don't die.

Except for the part where we are no longer alive.

Either we are biologically dead when we are harvested (which is clearly the case), or we are psychologically/emotionally/mentally dead (which is also likely the case, considering that no Reapers ever display any characteristics of an minds).

Either way, we're dead. Uploading our neurons and electrical impulses to a computer doesn't mean we've been "preserved".

Modifié par o Ventus, 01 mai 2013 - 01:56 .

[AresKeith]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

Aside the problem the people might have had another 10 million years of prosperous culture and history in front of them without him and that potential was lost.

That's not exactly much consolation for when they're dead.

o Ventus wrote...

Then in what way is the Catalyst's method advantageous? All it does is cut any development short.

Problem: organic species going extinct. Solution: immortalize organics into synthetic bodies.

Advantage: we technically don't die.

Problem: organic species were never going extinct and they aren't immortalized, everything about them is gone but their knowledge

Do you think those organics appreciate at?

[StarcloudSWG]

 Circular logic remains circular logic.

To make matters worse, the Brat is also the perfect counter-argument to its own logic; it is a synthetic that has not gone rogue or wiped out all organics everywhere forever.

[o Ventus]

Robosexual wrote...

That doesn't change the fact that the situation isn't necessarily the same to a Reaper. The Geth show that things can work differently, organics and synthetics aren't the same, a Reaper is a whole different ballpark.

Just because they're "different" doesn't give them special space-cuttlefish-wizard-magic. They still have to follow certain physical and biological laws. Chiefly, that being that genetic goop created from liquified corpses is not "alive" or "preserved". How the Reapers see it is irrelevant. They aren't the ones being "saved". 

Killing someone and then cryonically freezing their brain doesn't mean that you've "preserved" them in any way. It means you've killed them and frozen their brain.

Modifié par o Ventus, 01 mai 2013 - 02:04 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

If "mind" doesn't imply "consciousness", then what was the purpose of collecting the information in the first place? That's like collecting a library's worth of knowledge, but all the pages were torn from the books.

So each mind is a vegetable then? Just billions and billions of Terri Schiavos conjoined together?

That's actually worse.

What I mean by that is, each uploaded mind is not individually-conscious, they are altogether a collective-consciousness. The individual is still preserved, by virtue the collective holding all of their uploaded information.

Ergo, they are not individually lost. If you take away all the others, you'll eventually end right back up with the individual.

... I think.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

What I mean by that is, each uploaded mind is not individually-conscious, they are altogether a collective-consciousness. The individual is still preserved, by virtue the collective holding all of their uploaded information.

Ergo, they are not individually lost. If you take away all the others, you'll eventually end right back up with the individual.

... I think.

That own even remotely possible. How can their be a singular collective consciousness if there are no individual consciousnesses to make the collective?

"Big picture made of little pictures", only in this case there are no little pictures.

If there's a "collective" withot the individual, then t isn't a collective, it's a 3rd party.

[Phatose]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

 Circular logic remains circular logic.

To make matters worse, the Brat is also the perfect counter-argument to its own logic; it is a synthetic that has not gone rogue or wiped out all organics everywhere forever.

His existence isn't a counter-argument to it's logic any more then Geth-Quarian peace is.

He doesn't claim that any particular synthetic is going to go rogue or wipe out all organic life.  He claims that without very harsh limitations on their ability to create, organic life will eventually create a synthetic that will do so.

The burden of proof should realisitically lay on him for such a claim of course.  I'm not thrilled by the circumstantial evidence I'm seeing though.

[Vigilant111]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

Aside the problem the people might have had another 10 million years of prosperous culture and history in front of them without him and that potential was lost.

That's not exactly much consolation for when they're dead.

o Ventus wrote...

Then in what way is the Catalyst's method advantageous? All it does is cut any development short.

Problem: organic species going extinct. Solution: immortalize organics into synthetic bodies.

Advantage: we technically don't die.

When "imortalized" into a synthetic body, one is not extinct? One can still reproduce and pass on genetic material?