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[teh DRUMPf!!]

AresKeith wrote...

Problem: organic species were never going extinct and they aren't immortalized, everything about them is gone but their knowledge

Mass Effect seems to promote the idea that you are your knowledge, not your body.

Case in point: Lazarus Shepard vs. Clone Shepard.

Without the knowledge, Clone!Shep is just a cheap knock-off, even if its otherwise perfectly identical to the real thing.

Do you think those organics appreciate at?

Of course not, that's why we fight it every cycle.

However, (lack of) appreciation is an issue of emotion, not of logic.

Logic *is* the problem with the catalyst's solution, not a lack thereof. Logic alone does not solve the problem.

[iOnlySignIn]

If organics are weaker, they deserve to be wiped out. By other organics, or by synthetics. That is evolution.

The "problem" the Catalyst is trying to "solve" is not a problem in the first place.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 01 mai 2013 - 02:14 .

[Phatose]

As a matter of simple definition, reproductive capabilities aren't necessary to qualify as "not extinct". Any living example of a species is sufficient to say that species is not extinct - even if it's incapable of reproducing.

A genuinely immortal body needs not worry about reproduction to avoid extinction the way a mortal one does. Reproduction is necessary because individuals die. If they don't, it's irrelevant.

[Vigilant111]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

If "mind" doesn't imply "consciousness", then what was the purpose of collecting the information in the first place? That's like collecting a library's worth of knowledge, but all the pages were torn from the books.

So each mind is a vegetable then? Just billions and billions of Terri Schiavos conjoined together?

That's actually worse.

What I mean by that is, each uploaded mind is not individually-conscious, they are altogether a collective-consciousness. The individual is still preserved, by virtue the collective holding all of their uploaded information.

Ergo, they are not individually lost. If you take away all the others, you'll eventually end right back up with the individual.

... I think.

That remains to be seen. The reapers were designed to be controlled and respond to orders, preserving minds counter to this control, I would say uploading minds is reapers' least concern. The only thing that reapers preserve is the traces of life like a species' DNA

[AresKeith]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Problem: organic species were never going extinct and they aren't immortalized, everything about them is gone but their knowledge

Mass Effect seems to promote the idea that you are your knowledge, not your body.

Case in point: Lazarus Shepard vs. Clone Shepard.

Without the knowledge, Clone!Shep is just a cheap knock-off, even if its otherwise perfectly identical to the real thing.

Do you think those organics appreciate at?

Of course not, that's why we fight it every cycle.

However, (lack of) appreciation is an issue of emotion, not of logic.

Logic *is* the problem with the catalyst's solution, not a lack thereof. Logic alone does not solve the problem.

1. And its the mind that makes and keep that knowledge which is gone all those minds make a Reaper.

2. It's solution does lack logic because its based on an assumption

[Phatose]

Without some givens - assumptions - logic cannot get you anywhere anyway.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

That own even remotely possible. How can their be a singular collective consciousness if there are no individual consciousnesses to make the collective?

What I'm trying to distinguish is that... a Reaper is not like a tea-party, where you have bunch of different people individually sitting around the room. They're more like Legion -- each geth runtime makes up the collective.

The individual geth that make up Legion are simply functioning as one part of the whole, they're not lost in translation.

[StoneSwords]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That own even remotely possible. How can their be a singular collective consciousness if there are no individual consciousnesses to make the collective?

What I'm trying to distinguish is that... a Reaper is not like a tea-party, where you have bunch of different people individually sitting around the room. They're more like Legion -- each geth runtime makes up the collective.

The individual geth that make up Legion are simply functioning as one part of the whole, they're not lost in translation.

But at the same time, they're not preserved in any way that matters, because their personality and emotion is gone, everything that made them an actual person is gone.  I don't agree with your views, but I understand what you're trying to say.

[Vigilant111]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That own even remotely possible. How can their be a singular collective consciousness if there are no individual consciousnesses to make the collective?

What I'm trying to distinguish is that... a Reaper is not like a tea-party, where you have bunch of different people individually sitting around the room. They're more like Legion -- each geth runtime makes up the collective.

The individual geth that make up Legion are simply functioning as one part of the whole, they're not lost in translation.

Each geth serves as an outpost to gather new information and new perspectives, this does not make it an "individual"

[Phatose]

If it has a perspective, doesn't that alone qualify it as a mind?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

StoneSwords wrote...

But at the same time, they're not preserved in any way that matters, because their personality and emotion is gone, everything that made them an actual person is gone.  I don't agree with your views, but I understand what you're trying to say.

The actual person isn't gone, not really.

It's just that said person, alone, no longer makes up the individual.

Individual = him + all other preserved persons. If you took out all the others, you'd get that person again (minus body).



@Vigilant... what Phatose said.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 01 mai 2013 - 02:39 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Also note that I'm arguing these points in the narrative's perspective, not my own.

For the record, I think a person is *a bit* more complex than just all the "data" in their brain.

Again, though, Mass Effect seems to promote the idea that mind (and knowledge therein) = person.

[Constant Motion]

Eterna5 wrote...

You're wasting your breath. There is a cognitive dissonance on this forum that leaves some people unable to grasp this simple concept.

It will go in one ear and out the other, so to speak.

Yep - and the other distinction to make, is that the living matter gets to continue living, as a reaper. The reapers don't place any value on a regular, 24/7, day-to-day life - they prize life not for love, nor for personality, nor for hopes and dreams, but for its genetic code. They preserve life in its purest form, they are themselves documents of every civilisation that has ever achieved the technology to produce synthetic life. It's remarkably consistent with their aim, and very pragmatic. They kill the individuals so that the species can live on. They just don't care what shape it lives on in.

They are each a nation.

This is remarkably consistent with their goals. Psychopathically consistent. They just see life through robotic eyes. They value life, they just don't value it in the same form we do. What we see as important, they see as petty, they bring order to the chaos. I do now tend to take the "yo dawg" image, regrettably, as proof positive that that poster just plain hasn't understood the plot.

Modifié par Constant Motion, 01 mai 2013 - 02:54 .

[Kunari801]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

...Basically what he's saying is that if civilisations are left unchecked they can eventually create a technology (e.g. malicious AI) devastating enough to wipe out ALL organic life. So by cutting the civilizations off at a certain point they eventually save the rest of organic life...

Many of us here get that, but thanks for the condescension anyway. Unlike you, many of us are still unsatisfied with the endings.

[Vigilant111]

Phatose wrote...

If it has a perspective, doesn't that alone qualify it as a mind?

Are we arguing whether a geth's has a mind, or whether it is an individual?

[PsyrenY]

Eterna5 wrote...

You're wasting your breath. There is a cognitive dissonance on this forum that leaves some people unable to grasp this simple concept.

It will go in one ear and out the other, so to speak.

Eterna5 wrote...

I said "some", like the person above who posted the yo dawg meme. 

Prophecy

[Argolas]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Problem: organic species were never going extinct and they aren't immortalized, everything about them is gone but their knowledge

Mass Effect seems to promote the idea that you are your knowledge, not your body.

Case in point: Lazarus Shepard vs. Clone Shepard.

Without the knowledge, Clone!Shep is just a cheap knock-off, even if its otherwise perfectly identical to the real thing.

The difference between Shepard and the Clone is the Normandy crew, not any unique knowledge (except the cipher of course).Shepard came that far because he/she commands unique loyalty. While Shepard has multiple people who helps him/her back up, the clone's helper (brooks) turns around. That situation is highly symbolic because it happens to Shepard all the time, most importantly in the suicide mission: Shepard gets to the Normandy, but someone has to help him/her up. If not at least 2 squadmates survived, Shepard doesn't get the required help and dies. The "cliffhanger occurs on several other occasions as well, I remember such scenes on the Geth dreadnought and on Thessia.

So no, knowledge is not everything. Other things matter, although the Catalyst may not understand that.

[AshenShug4r]

It doesn't make sense. It doesn't solve conflict, it doesn't preserve life and it's probably the worst idea someone could come up with were they given the task of ending synthetic and organic hostilities.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

That own even remotely possible. How can their be a singular collective consciousness if there are no individual consciousnesses to make the collective?

What I'm trying to distinguish is that... a Reaper is not like a tea-party, where you have bunch of different people individually sitting around the room. They're more like Legion -- each geth runtime makes up the collective.

The individual geth that make up Legion are simply functioning as one part of the whole, they're not lost in translation.

Each geth runtime is also a free-thinking entity. The geth don't even take action without reaching a consensus. To reach consensus, the individual must have consciousness to reach their outcome. If the minds in Reapers don't have consciousness, how are they at all similar? 

Your analogies are getting worse and worse.

Modifié par o Ventus, 01 mai 2013 - 10:30 .

[M74]

Eterna5 wrote...

You're wasting your breath. There is a cognitive dissonance on this forum that leaves some people unable to grasp this simple concept.

It will go in one ear and out the other, so to speak.

because of lack of comprehending visual and textual content
education is the key argument fixing this problem
this is something even BioWare can't fix

sorry for being so blund here...

[Eryri]

I understand the Catalyst's logic perfectly. How could I fail to? Science Fiction is full of examples of AIs turning on organic life "for it's own good". From Isaac Asimov's "I Robot", to the Borg, to the Cybermen. It's a common trope bordering on cliche. I just don't think it's a particularly interesting or original motivation for the main antagonist of this series.

As others have posted its also a hopelessly inefficient way for the Catalyst to fulfil its objective. After "preserving" a species, it pours it into what is essentially a warship, and then periodically throws it into battle. Where it might get shot to pieces, or blown up from within, or eaten by a Thresher Maw.

Of course one might argue that it is not even interested in the preservation of individual species. It's more interested in preserving organic life in general, against the unlikely possibility that some sort of omnivorous, sentient nano-goo might be accidentally created by some reckless organic species, and then go on to spread itself through the entire galaxy and consume every living thing, on every world, down to the last bacterium. Given the vastness of the galaxy I find this almost as unbelievable as Synthesis. I think my Shepard's response to the Catalyst regarding this entirely hypothetical apocalypse would have been "Let's cross that bridge when we come to it, shall we?"

Then of course there is the issue that the Leviathans were not interested in preserving some vague concept of organic life for its own sake. They wanted individual species preserved as they were, so that they could continue to control them, and extract tribute from them. This, however, would be hard to do after the catalyst murdered 99% of the Leviathans, and then transformed their potential thralls into a semi-synthetic form that they might not have been able to control even if they were alive to do so.
The Catalyst has been busy preserving slaves for masters who (very nearly) no longer exist.

These are the actions of a pitiful, broken AI, trapped by its own logic. Hardly a worthy opponent, or a very satisfying one to defeat.

Modifié par Eryri, 01 mai 2013 - 01:37 .

[Slayer299]

M74 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

You're wasting your breath. There is a cognitive dissonance on this forum that leaves some people unable to grasp this simple concept.

It will go in one ear and out the other, so to speak.

because of lack of comprehending visual and textual content
education is the key argument fixing this problem
this is something even BioWare can't fix

sorry for being so blund here...

So, in otherwords people here are just too stupid to get the intelligent reasoning of the Catalyst? Gee, thanks<_<

[KingZayd]

The Starchild itself is already powerful enough to wipe out all Organic life.

[sunnydxmen]

Synthetics were created by organics to destroy there organic enemies synthetics found them to be to inferior to be served so they destroy them .synthetics were created by dumb organics to serve them but synthetics are like hell no we are not your slaves you inferior meat bag, the peace between quarians and Geth won't last .after all that time some geth and quarians would want pay back eventually war will break out it's only a matter of time peace is a nice word but that's all it is peace is temporarily it never lasts.

[dreamgazer]

Eryri wrote...

I understand the Catalyst's logic perfectly. How could I fail to? Science Fiction is full of examples of AIs turning on organic life "for it's own good". From Isaac Asimov's "I Robot", to the Borg, to the Cybermen. It's a common trope bordering on cliche. I just don't think it's a particularly interesting or original motivation for the main antagonist of this series.

Hate to say it, but they weren't all that "interesting" in the first place.  The most compelling thing about them was their mystique, and how the 50,000-year cycles allowed for several interpretations about their motivation towards suppressing life's advancement (civilization? technology? celestial decree?).