150 réponses à ce sujet

[Eryri]

dreamgazer wrote...


Hate to say it, but they weren't all that "interesting" in the first place.  The most compelling thing about them was their mystique, and how the 50,000-year cycles allowed for several interpretations about their motivation towards suppressing life's advancement (civilization? technology? celestial decree?).

Agreed. The Reaper's motivation is one thing that really might have been better left up to "speculation".

[fizzypop]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm sure that's what Walters was TRYING to say... but the problem I have there is that you could just as easily say that organic/organic conflict would create the same dilemma, and THAT sort of conflict has happened FAR more often than organic/synthetic.

Totally agree, but the Reapers also solve the organic/organic prolem too. Because they ensure that no organic civilization develops technology far enough to wipe out everyone else as collateral damage. Organics can war as much as they want with each other.

Again like with humans, nations can fight each other to their hearts content but it only becomes a problem with things like nukes, the next conflict between nations could wipe out every living species on this planet. So the Reapers are cutting off progress before they can reach that "killer technology" point. I guess from the Reapers experience this usually takes the form of some kind of AI weapon or tool rather than simple explosives.

In the ME world a nuke is capable of wiping out an entire colony. We hear about a colony choosing to nuke themselves instead of being harvested. It's entirely possible to wipe out an entire species using nukes in the ME world. They already have the ability to wipe out all life in the galaxy. Aside from all of this who cares? If organic life wipes itself out in the galaxy it'll be quiet for awhile until more life finds it's way. Just because you kill everyone in the galaxy doesn't mean no life will ever exist again...it will. The reapers could go and kill everyone in the galaxy even those who aren't "advanced" enough in a million years I can say without a doubt more life will come around.

The intelligence is also not really stopping this from happening geth have been around for like what 300 years? In that time they came to a peaceful solution aka quarians lost their home world. Why not watch from the sidelines and see what happens? If synthetics take over the galaxy or the conflict cannot be solved then come in with your reaper forces? Intelligence is either programmed to stick to it's first solution no matter what or it's got other motiviations.

[KaiserShep]

The reapers solve the problem, much in the same way wiping out the entire population of every major city on earth would significantly reduce violent crime.

As others have said, the geth disprove the catalyst's assertion. Even before the reaper conflict provided the "catalyst" in making peace with the geth and quarians, and in turn the rest of organic civilization, they chose to remain isolated, and even when the Quarians attacked, the geth had no interest in waging war with the entire galaxy. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 01 mai 2013 - 02:54 .

[Argolas]

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers solve the problem, much in the same way wiping out the entire population of every major city on earth would significantly reduce violent crime.

And wiping out humanity would do Earth a lot good.

[KaiserShep]

Indeed it would, though if I'm adding preservation of humanity to my list of rules, I'd have to also ensure that humanity doesn't actually go extinct, so I leave a viable number to repopulate, then I come back and spank them again.

Like Ra's al Ghul destroying Gotham because of its crime and corruption. Batman ain't got time for that, so why should I?

Modifié par KaiserShep, 01 mai 2013 - 02:56 .

[fizzypop]

Phatose wrote...

As a matter of simple definition, reproductive capabilities aren't necessary to qualify as "not extinct". Any living example of a species is sufficient to say that species is not extinct - even if it's incapable of reproducing.

A genuinely immortal body needs not worry about reproduction to avoid extinction the way a mortal one does. Reproduction is necessary because individuals die. If they don't, it's irrelevant.

If no humans are left in their current form they are extinct same for any other race. Reapers take them and change them into THEIR form of life. That makes them a reaper it doesn't make them a human that will never go extinct. At that point they are no longer a human thus humans are extinct.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

Each geth runtime is also a free-thinking entity. The geth don't even take action without reaching a consensus. To reach consensus, the individual must have consciousness to reach their outcome. If the minds in Reapers don't have consciousness, how are they at all similar? 

Your analogies are getting worse and worse.

Does it matter, really? Either the individuals mind(s) are still individually free-thinking and make up the collective, or they are no longer sentient but still intact as one part of the whole... either way, they've been preserved.

Argolas wrote...

The difference between Shepard and the Clone is the Normandy crew, not any unique knowledge (except the cipher of course).Shepard came that far because he/she commands unique loyalty. While Shepard has multiple people who helps him/her back up, the clone's helper (brooks) turns around. That situation is highly symbolic because it happens to Shepard all the time, most importantly in the suicide mission: Shepard gets to the Normandy, but someone has to help him/her up. If not at least 2 squadmates survived, Shepard doesn't get the required help and dies. The "cliffhanger occurs on several other occasions as well, I remember such scenes on the Geth dreadnought and on Thessia.

So no, knowledge is not everything. Other things matter, although the Catalyst may not understand that.

I think you missed my point here. Obviously, the "power of friendship" trope was strong with Citadel DLC, but you also have to remember that there's a reason why Shepard's friends wouldn't ever mistake the clone for the real person.

The Clone said it himself: he doesn't has Real!Shep's memories, so he'd never fool his supposed friends.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 01 mai 2013 - 03:12 .

[fizzypop]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Problem: organic species were never going extinct and they aren't immortalized, everything about them is gone but their knowledge

Mass Effect seems to promote the idea that you are your knowledge, not your body.

Case in point: Lazarus Shepard vs. Clone Shepard.

Without the knowledge, Clone!Shep is just a cheap knock-off, even if its otherwise perfectly identical to the real thing.

The difference between clone shep and actual shep is that she's actually shep. They used her body and mind otherwise shep wouldn't have come back the same person. Clone shep didn't have her mind or body and was grown from her DNA. Your DNA doesn't make you who you are your brain within your body does without it intact in one piece you have nothing. There is no evidence to suggest they take the brain in it's current form and inject it into some kind of "hive mind". They simply reduce ALL organic material to goo to feed into a reaper. It makes zero sense that goo would magically upload memories, thoughts, feelings, knowledge, and anything else into the reaper. That's just not how the human brain works. Our brains are actually pretty fragile when you consider a simple tumor growing on one part of the brain can change your entire personality. That shows that regardless of what the reapers do it's very unlikely they'd be preserving every single mind without any damage or change at all. It's more likely the reaper has it's own sentient mind  seperate from the organic beings that are part of it. If it really preserved memories, thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc etc from every single person harvested we'd have seen more personality from each reaper...we'd probably have seen a defector.

Modifié par fizzypop, 01 mai 2013 - 03:15 .

[fizzypop]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Each geth runtime is also a free-thinking entity. The geth don't even take action without reaching a consensus. To reach consensus, the individual must have consciousness to reach their outcome. If the minds in Reapers don't have consciousness, how are they at all similar? 

Your analogies are getting worse and worse.

Does it matter, really? Either the individuals mind(s) are still individually free-thinking and make up the collective, or they are no longer sentient but still intact as one part of the whole... either way, they've been preserved.

Yes it does matter. Would you say that an extinct animal isn't extinct because we preserve their bones? Would you argue that they are living? How about ancient people and cultures that are no longer around? Are they still living because some of their buildings, writings, or other knowledge made it through? Probably not. That's what's happening here...there is no preserving that species or a single person. They are now dead and extinct....gone forever. If they are no longer sentient or freewilled then yeah they are no longer the person they were which means they didn't preserve the people. They could argue for preserving their technology or even their culture, but the reapers have been known to destroy that too. That's why the protheans had to go through so much trouble to preserve some of their culture for future gens. As far as preserving the people though no they are definitely not doing that.

Modifié par fizzypop, 01 mai 2013 - 03:24 .

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Does it matter, really? Either the individuals mind(s) are still individually free-thinking and make up the collective, or they are no longer sentient but still intact as one part of the whole... either way, they've been preserved.

Yes, it does. There's not a shred of evidence to support the notion that each mind I side a Reaper is sentient in the slightest, but there IS evidence to support them being subdued.

You say that the MEU defines "you" as your experiences and memories, yet if the minds do not have consciousness, both of these things are lost. If both of these things are lost, then it isn't "people" in each Reaper, it's just genetic smoothie.

[Mangalores]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

...
I see this all the time on these forums. The whole: "The ending makes no sense because the catalyst says he created synthetics to kill organics to stop synthetics killing organics" argument.

...

This argument from the Starbrat makes perfect sense to me - its not as simplistic as people reduce it to. Basically what he's saying is that if civilisations are left unchecked they can eventually create a technology (e.g. malicious AI) devastating enough to wipe out ALL organic life. So by cutting the civilizations off at a certain point they eventually save the rest of organic life.

It's that simplistic. "If civilisations are left unchecked they can eventually create a technology ..."

You just summarized his reasoning with one simple sentence but have three catches attached to the entire statement! If either of those catches are untrue his entire premise is false. His solution is simplistic garbage.
If you allow this kind of reasoning to lead your decision you can make up anything because the possibilities of something happening is vastly different than the probability of something happening. Even on cosmic scales.

But in his entire reasoning the Reapers are the only point in favour of his theory that organics threaten to get themselves killed permanently.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

Yes, it does. There's not a shred of evidence to support the notion that each mind I side a Reaper is sentient in the slightest, but there IS evidence to support them being subdued.

You say that the MEU defines "you" as your experiences and memories, yet if the minds do not have consciousness, both of these things are lost. If both of these things are lost, then it isn't "people" in each Reaper, it's just genetic smoothie.

No. It's the collective, single-consciousness of a species. Which fulfills the objective: preserving organic species.

Plenty of individuals die outright in the cycle (like vent-kid). Doesn't matter. Only preserving the species does.

They take on a new form, yes. They have to, though, if it's true that they will go extinct otherwise.

[Mangalores]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

Aside the problem the people might have had another 10 million years of prosperous culture and history in front of them without him and that potential was lost.

That's not exactly much consolation for when they're dead.

...

Erm... I don't think you followed me. If you have 40 years of good life before you, do you want to get killed because the last 10 might suck? That's the same here. He cuts off the development of a civilization at a random point when the danger he describes have not been manifested but claims to preserve their knowledge. No, he doesn't. If he had let them live they might develop more culture and knowledge until they manifest their doom.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Mangalores wrote...

Erm... I don't think you followed me. If you have 40 years of good life before you, do you want to get killed because the last 10 might suck? That's the same here.

No it isn't.

The "same" would be: I have 40 years of life, but if I transfer my mind to a new body, I could live longer.

Which they are researching how to do IRL: [link].

[Seival]

[Argolas]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The difference between Shepard and the Clone is the Normandy crew, not any unique knowledge (except the cipher of course).Shepard came that far because he/she commands unique loyalty. While Shepard has multiple people who helps him/her back up, the clone's helper (brooks) turns around. That situation is highly symbolic because it happens to Shepard all the time, most importantly in the suicide mission: Shepard gets to the Normandy, but someone has to help him/her up. If not at least 2 squadmates survived, Shepard doesn't get the required help and dies. The "cliffhanger occurs on several other occasions as well, I remember such scenes on the Geth dreadnought and on Thessia.

So no, knowledge is not everything. Other things matter, although the Catalyst may not understand that.

I think you missed my point here. Obviously, the "power of friendship" trope was strong with Citadel DLC, but you also have to remember that there's a reason why Shepard's friends wouldn't ever mistake the clone for the real person.

The Clone said it himself: he doesn't has Real!Shep's memories, so he'd never fool his supposed friends.

It's not exactly "power of friendship". Many people on the Normandy are friends with each other. There are strong friendships implied, potentially a lot stronger than Shepard's personal relationship with those people, yet those don't really matter. It's Shepard's leadership that is special. Even if you are a jerk to them and they hate you, everyone knows that Shepard is the one that can get them to the other side. It's not knowledge or experience that makes Shepard unique. Mutliple squad members share Shepard's knowledge, yet none of them could replace Shepard.

[Mangalores]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

...
No it isn't.

The "same" would be: I have 40 years of life, but if I transfer my mind to a new body, I could live longer.

That's not what the Reapers do. The civilizations cease to exist (as if this wanton destruction wouldn't already facilitate their destruction, they are transformed into something new). You cease to exist. Something else is claimed to be your preserved being.

The organic life is gone. What is the definition of organic life? What you see before the Reapers are finished with it. They destroy it at random points in time and claim to preserve it. That's all nonsensical.

PS: Did you read your own link?

PPS: For us to believe any of this preservation effort we'd need to see it _once_ anyway, either by seeing/talking/hearing a harvested individual and that they like it. We don't see it so given the gooification process we have to assume a highly invasive procedure and given all the killing a highly imperfect level of preservation.

Modifié par Mangalores, 01 mai 2013 - 04:50 .

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

And that, by the way, is a fine example of what happens when you completely lose perspective.

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

And that, by the way, is a fine example of what happens when you completely lose perspective.

Life creates new lives.
Lives form society.

Remove lives - new ones will be created.
Remove life - galaxy becomes the empty place.

The Catalyst was created with mandate to preserve Life at any cost.

[Mangalores]

Seival wrote...

Life creates new lives.
Lives form society.

Remove lives - new ones will be created.
Remove life - galaxy becomes the empty place.

...

So the Catalyst is protecting physics now?

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Life creates new lives.
Lives form society.

Remove lives - new ones will be created.
Remove life - galaxy becomes the empty place.

The Catalyst was created with mandate to preserve Life at any cost.

Life consists of lives.

[Steelcan]

He's protecting them from a non-existent issue.

[Seival]

Mangalores wrote...

Seival wrote...

Life creates new lives.
Lives form society.

Remove lives - new ones will be created.
Remove life - galaxy becomes the empty place.

...

So the Catalyst is protecting physics now?