150 réponses à ce sujet

[Phatose]

We don't have enough information to do a technical assessment over whether or not individuals are preserved in any meaningful way in Reaper form.

We know from the virtual aliens mentioned in the codex that mind uploading is possible and does work, and preserved the mind in question in a way sufficient for an uploaded mind to be re downloaded into a physical body.

We just don't know whether or not the Reapers are actually doing that.

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

Seival wrote...

Life creates new lives.
Lives form society.

Remove lives - new ones will be created.
Remove life - galaxy becomes the empty place.

...

So the Catalyst is protecting physics now?

The Leviathans are liars.



The reality is this:

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

Seival wrote...

Life creates new lives.
Lives form society.

Remove lives - new ones will be created.
Remove life - galaxy becomes the empty place.

...

So the Catalyst is protecting physics now?

The Leviathans are liars.



The reality is this:

Some primitive races see Leviathans as gods. Leviathans don't have to hide from such primitives to direct them effectively enough. So what?

The only thing that Leviathan lied about was Crucible (remember the way it answered the question about it?). Leviathan definitely knows more, but doesn't want to tell all the truth.

[PsyrenY]

Phatose wrote...

We don't have enough information to do a technical assessment over whether or not individuals are preserved in any meaningful way in Reaper form.

Actually, we do. EDI's epilogue:

"The war is over, and the Reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction, they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

Javik posits that DNA stores memories, languages and other information to those who can read it. EDI's narrative confirms that the DNA within Reapers does the same thing.

[AresKeith]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Phatose wrote...

We don't have enough information to do a technical assessment over whether or not individuals are preserved in any meaningful way in Reaper form.

Actually, we do. EDI's epilogue:

"The war is over, and the Reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction, they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

Javik posits that DNA stores memories, languages and other information to those who can read it. EDI's narrative confirms that the DNA within Reapers does the same thing.

That still doesn't mean the individuals are, Collective knowledge could easily mean the minds of the harvested Organics are formed into One mind (A Reaper)

[webhead921]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

Snip OP

I agree 100%.  There are many problems with the ending (i.e. its lack of closure and the abrupt appearance of the catalyst and the info dump at the end), but the reaper's motivation makes perfect sense.  It's not even that hard to grasp.  I think the ending put a lot of people off for very good reasons, so now a lot of people automatically hate everything associated with it.  The sudden introduction of catalyst and the contrived ending choice was poor writing, but there are some things that he says that make sense.

Modifié par webhead921, 01 mai 2013 - 05:30 .

[Phatose]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Phatose wrote...

We don't have enough information to do a technical assessment over whether or not individuals are preserved in any meaningful way in Reaper form.

Actually, we do. EDI's epilogue:

"The war is over, and the Reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction, they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

Javik posits that DNA stores memories, languages and other information to those who can read it. EDI's narrative confirms that the DNA within Reapers does the same thing.

Well, the thing is that it's possible to preserve collective knowledge without actually preserving the collective.  Knowledge is valuable, but it's only part of what makes a mind a mind. 

I don't have From Ashes, but I do know that Javik claims that and it seems to work.  Can't say I like it - real DNA don't work like that - but given that it seems to work for Javik, it makes it far more plausible for the Reapers.

[AresKeith]

Phatose wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Phatose wrote...

We don't have enough information to do a technical assessment over whether or not individuals are preserved in any meaningful way in Reaper form.

Actually, we do. EDI's epilogue:

"The war is over, and the Reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction, they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

Javik posits that DNA stores memories, languages and other information to those who can read it. EDI's narrative confirms that the DNA within Reapers does the same thing.

Well, the thing is that it's possible to preserve collective knowledge without actually preserving the collective.  Knowledge is valuable, but it's only part of what makes a mind a mind. 

I don't have From Ashes, but I do know that Javik claims that and it seems to work.  Can't say I like it - real DNA don't work like that - but given that it seems to work for Javik, it makes it far more plausible for the Reapers.

But wouldn't something like that require the Reapers to make a Prothean Reaper in that cycle?

[Phatose]

AresKeith wrote...

But wouldn't something like that require the Reapers to make a Prothean Reaper in that cycle?

Nah.  The fact that the protheans can do it at all shows that DNA works pretty differently in the ME universe then in ours.  Information, memories....that all apparently shows up. 

For the protheans to have that ability at all shows it's not impossible.  They're not automatically neccessary though.  Bats use sonar, for example, but you don't need a bat to replicate the sonar.  As long as the core principle works, it's possible.  And apparently it is.

[AresKeith]

Phatose wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

But wouldn't something like that require the Reapers to make a Prothean Reaper in that cycle?

Nah.  The fact that the protheans can do it at all shows that DNA works pretty differently in the ME universe then in ours.  Information, memories....that all apparently shows up. 

For the protheans to have that ability at all shows it's not impossible.  They're not automatically neccessary though.  Bats use sonar, for example, but you don't need a bat to replicate the sonar.  As long as the core principle works, it's possible.  And apparently it is.

Or it could be that only Protheans can do it as a unique trait among their race because the MEU as tries to show that every species has their own unique trait

[Phatose]

Do you have an example of one that could not be replicated by technology?

[PsyrenY]

AresKeith wrote...


That still doesn't mean the individuals are, Collective knowledge could easily mean the minds of the harvested Organics are formed into One mind (A Reaper)

I wouldn't say that matters. The Catalyst never cared about individuals. So long as the collective has the required knowledge, the species as a whole is preserved.

It's the difference between saving humans, and saving humanity.

[Phatose]

The catalyst wouldn't see the difference. The harvested people sure would though.

For them, if individuals aren't preserved, this is much less 'actual immortality' and more 'immortality though your children'. In this case, a child you didn't actually want to begin with, and who killed you in childbirth.

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AresKeith wrote...


That still doesn't mean the individuals are, Collective knowledge could easily mean the minds of the harvested Organics are formed into One mind (A Reaper)

I wouldn't say that matters. The Catalyst never cared about individuals. So long as the collective has the required knowledge, the species as a whole is preserved.

It's the difference between saving humans, and saving humanity.

When one says "Life is preserved", you either save every last individual or you're a lying peice of ****.  Because otherwise all you did was kill everyone, turn them to jelly, and make a museum out of said jelly.

[PsyrenY]

Phatose wrote...

For them, if individuals aren't preserved, this is much less 'actual immortality' and more 'immortality though your children'. In this case, a child you didn't actually want to begin with, and who killed you in childbirth.

What's done is done. In fact, Synthesis is our only hope of restoring them to what they were, if indeed they even want to be after becoming a collective. No other ending's technology can come close.

The Inusannon have been dead  for hundreds of millennia. Those before them, even longer. Whatever consciousness exists in each Reaper, they've been like that longer than their civilizations have existed by now. Restoration may actually be cruel.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

When one says "Life is preserved", you either save every last individual or you're a lying peice of ****. Because otherwise all you did was kill everyone, turn them to jelly, and make a museum out of said jelly.

Museums don't think.

"Every last individual?" This is naive. So if even one human died on Earth, Shepard failed to save humanity?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 01 mai 2013 - 07:33 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Museums don't think.

"Every last individual?" This is naive. So if even one human died on Earth, Shepard failed to save humanity?

Neither do Reapers apparently.

"They are simply tools."
"Does fire go to war."

Also, Shepard wasn't trying to "preserve life" by turning it to jelly.

[KaiserShep]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Phatose wrote...

For them, if individuals aren't preserved, this is much less 'actual immortality' and more 'immortality though your children'. In this case, a child you didn't actually want to begin with, and who killed you in childbirth.

What's done is done. In fact, Synthesis is our only hope of restoring them to what they were, if indeed they even want to be after becoming a collective. No other ending's technology can come close.

The Inusannon have been dead  for hundreds of millennia. Those before them, even longer. Whatever consciousness exists in each Reaper, they've been like that longer than their civilizations have existed by now. Restoration may actually be cruel.

Impaling people and turning them into quasi-synthetic zombies and liquefying people alive seems just a tad higher on the cruelty chart. Hope of restoring age old civilizations by accessing a reaper database seems like a moot point when the reapers themselves snatched away any hope of these civilizations' continued existence on their own terms. 

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

When one says "Life is preserved", you either save every last individual or you're a lying peice of ****. Because otherwise all you did was kill everyone, turn them to jelly, and make a museum out of said jelly.

Museums don't think.

"Every last individual?" This is naive. So if even one human died on Earth, Shepard failed to save humanity?

I guess this goes more to the lack of perspective on the part of the reapers. Preservation of life through the systematic extermination of a large percentage of its members seems like a huge exercise in futility. There's no godo reason to believe that life would simply cease to exist without the reaper's intervention. This intervention came as the result of yet more misguided thinking from another race of beings, the Leviathan. 

[PsyrenY]

KaiserShep wrote...

Impaling people and turning them into quasi-synthetic zombies and liquefying people alive seems just a tad higher on the cruelty chart.

I agree, what the Catalyst did was monstrous. But it's already happened, eons ago for some of these races. As I said before, many of them have been Reapers longer than they've been sapient. Humanity itself consisted of cavemen when the Protheans were reaped, and the Salarians licked their eyes and ate flies - the other races likely had similar development time frames. A mere 50k years of sapience at most, followed by hundreds of thousands if not millions as a Reaper.

Again, if there is any hope to restoring them, Synthesis has the way - nothing could jumpstart our technology like that. But some may simply choose to stay in Reaper form, however horrible the birth trauma may have been.

KaiserShep wrote...


I guess this goes more to the lack of perspective on the part of the reapers. Preservation of life through the systematic extermination of a large percentage of its members seems like a huge exercise in futility. There's no godo reason to believe that life would simply cease to exist without the reaper's intervention. This intervention came as the result of yet more misguided thinking from another race of beings, the Leviathan. 

There is plenty of good reason. The Catalyst's thought process is simple.

1) Organics exist.
2) Organics create synthetics.
3) Synthetics surpass organics.
4) The two sides come into conflict.

From (4), one of two things happen.

5a) We win - in which case, go to 2.
5b) They win - in which case they either let us advance again (go to 1) or they don't (game over.)

[Argolas]

Optimystic_X wrote...

1) Organics exist.
2) Organics create synthetics.
3) Synthetics surpass organics.
4) The two sides come into conflict.

From (4), one of two things happen.

5a) We win - in which case, go to 2.
5b) They win - in which case they either let us advance again (go to 1) or they don't (game over.)

It's rather

1) Organics create Synthetics
2) Synthetics become self-aware and free themselves

Now, one of two things happens:

3a) Synthetics become hostile => Organics win until Reapers step in and kill anyone who could be a threat.
3b) Synthetics don't become hostile => Reapers step in and make sure Synthetics become hostile anyway, then kill anyone who could be a threat

back to 1)

Modifié par Argolas, 01 mai 2013 - 10:29 .

[In Exile]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...
This argument from the Starbrat makes perfect sense to me - its not as simplistic as people reduce it to. Basically what he's saying is that if civilisations are left unchecked they can eventually create a technology (e.g. malicious AI) devastating enough to wipe out ALL organic life. So by cutting the civilizations off at a certain point they eventually save the rest of organic life.

No, this argument is stupid for several reasons. One, "organic life" is a nonsense category. Intestinal bacteria are "organic life". Cyanobacteria that can survive at hundreds of degrees in vulcanoes are "organic life". 

If the reapers vaporized every single sentient organism in the universe, they would preserve organic life. If they vaporized every single multicellular organism, they would preserve organic life. 

There are other completely funky assumptions about the intrisic worth of lives, but this is the dumbest. 

[In Exile]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Actually, we do. EDI's epilogue:

"The war is over, and the Reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction, they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

Javik posits that DNA stores memories, languages and other information to those who can read it. EDI's narrative confirms that the DNA within Reapers does the same thing.

The internet happens to store most of our collective knowledge and culture, but I hope you're not going to tell me its alive.

[fizzypop]

Mangalores wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

Aside the problem the people might have had another 10 million years of prosperous culture and history in front of them without him and that potential was lost.

That's not exactly much consolation for when they're dead.

...

Erm... I don't think you followed me. If you have 40 years of good life before you, do you want to get killed because the last 10 might suck? That's the same here. He cuts off the development of a civilization at a random point when the danger he describes have not been manifested but claims to preserve their knowledge. No, he doesn't. If he had let them live they might develop more culture and knowledge until they manifest their doom.

I'll just expand on your point here because it's a good one;

or they'd have billions of years of culture because that doom never happened. We'll never know because the reapers killed them. It's like killing a "bad" teen boy to prevent him from hurting himself or others in the future. A future that may never become a reality. I really can't believe people think that's appropriate logic. That entire premise has been seen in movies of dystopian futures the minority report anyone? Yeah..

[o Ventus]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Life creates new lives.
Lives form society.

Remove lives - new ones will be created.
Remove life - galaxy becomes the empty place.

The Catalyst was created with mandate to preserve Life at any cost.

Life consists of lives.

Big picture made of little pictures. 

So let's stomp out the little pictures and grind them into paste, we still have our by picture, even if the little pictures that formed the big one are no longer recognizable.

Modifié par o Ventus, 01 mai 2013 - 10:56 .

[fizzypop]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Phatose wrote...

We don't have enough information to do a technical assessment over whether or not individuals are preserved in any meaningful way in Reaper form.

Actually, we do. EDI's epilogue:

"The war is over, and the Reapers are helping to rebuild. Where once they threatened us with extinction, they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

Javik posits that DNA stores memories, languages and other information to those who can read it. EDI's narrative confirms that the DNA within Reapers does the same thing.

You are reading into it what you want to hear. All EDI says is "collective knowledge" we have no idea what that actually means. Collective knowledge isn't a person either. We know that "memories" from that DNA shard w/e the hell it is isn't the same as THE PERSON which is more than memories and knowledge. As far as science goes it's very unlikely we'll ever see "true" memories being able to be uploaded and perserved in any manner that would have the exact same experience as human memory. Why? because it's a complex thing that happens within physical locations in the brain without those locations and specific triggers you won't remember certain things or can even misremember. It's why human memory is SO unreliable because even how we store them now is open to problems. So yeah I'm not going to believe they aren't significantly altered or damaged going through this process. They may even be interpreted differently depending on who is accessing them...we see that now within our own memories re-interpreting memories over time.

/real science

Modifié par fizzypop, 01 mai 2013 - 11:06 .

[fizzypop]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AresKeith wrote...


That still doesn't mean the individuals are, Collective knowledge could easily mean the minds of the harvested Organics are formed into One mind (A Reaper)

I wouldn't say that matters. The Catalyst never cared about individuals. So long as the collective has the required knowledge, the species as a whole is preserved.

It's the difference between saving humans, and saving humanity.

Not even close because humanity is more than knowledge. Culture is actually much better to perserve if you wanted to "save" humanity...god that just makes it even stupider.

Modifié par fizzypop, 01 mai 2013 - 11:11 .