159 réponses à ce sujet

[Kunari801]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

... I sort of feel like any explanation or motivation cheapens them as a villain? It would just bring them down to our level and really reduce the whole Lovecraftian horror feel to it...

Agreed OP, I didn't need any explanation on their motivations. 

[Xamufam]

pastebin.com/LXUd4BU1
www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect-3/3030-29935/forums/supposed-true-endings-according-to-guy-on-gamefaqs-539248/
"After checking these boards, bioware forums, the twitters of various
people involved with the game, audio file rips as well as some
information I've gathered from other sources, I decided to talk with
someone who used to run their own review website who still has ties to
some people in the video game industry. That includes Bioware (they had
sent him early review copies of the first ME). Anyway that's not what's
important. The point is what I'm about to say you can take with a grain
of salt if you want. I'm not here for attention or because I'm a fanboy
of bioware. I'm simply here to help you all make sense of this
situation. It will make a lot of sense and put the little things you've
all found together. The reasoning for the ending change was they needed
more time to implement it (this was supposed to be the reason for the
delay) but Kinect implementation and the desire by some people (perhaps
EA) to have an ending where things are left to interpretation messed
with this. The ending was quickly altered which is why things don't
"fit" and there are plot holes. Anyway, below is how things were
supposed to happen.

The original ending was SUPPOSED to be extremely
varied. Everything remained the same up until the part when Harbinger
shoots at you and your team. This is when information that has appeared
here already comes into play. There were going to be various outcomes
determining how you reached the citadel and it was HOW you got there
that determined what endings would be available to you. The following
were the different scenarios from worst to best (based on EMS and war
assets) 

A: Your whole squad gets wiped out (the two crew
members you took with you, Anderson). You struggle to make it to the
citadel. Right as you're about to make it to the beam, Harbinger talks
to you, saying you've been defeated and he kills you. Joker tries to
swoop down to save you, but he also gets shot down. 

B: Most of your squad gets wiped out. Still only you
are able to make it to the citadel. Once up there, you must confront the
illusive man alone. Because of this, unless you have high reputation
and either talk him down or renegade interrupt and shoot him, he kills
you and tries to control the reapers, but fails as he discovers he was
indoctrinated. 

C: You and Anderson make it up to the citadel together
and make your way to the control panel where you confront TIM. The same
thing plays out where you can talk him down. With high enough
reputation, you can "save" Anderson but its not necessary for you to
make it to the next part. Anderson dies after TIM is shot or kills
himself like in the ending we got. 

D: You and Anderson make it up to the citadel together
while you're two squad maters, who clearly survive, are holding off the
reapers from following you to the citadel. Everything continues the same
here as "C" until after TIM is shot and killed and the final
conversation that Anderson and Shepard have (which is much longer than
what we got). You get the shorter convo in C. 

[The following you only see with outcome "C' and "D"]
Shepard looks out at the war going on and activates the crucible.
Hacketts says its not working. This is when Harbinger talks to Shepard
through TIM as he lies on the ground. Harbinger tries to convince you
that you've fail but you can argue with him. Harbinger says that he has
your crew in his cross hairs. We see the Normandy arrive (the joker
dialogue that was cut) and the rest of your friends help the two squad
members you brought with you face off against Harbinger and his reaper
minions. 

You basically have a choice. You can submit to him and
he claims he will spare your squad and earth until the next cycle
because he is impressed that you were able to make it this far. This is
when the motive of the reapers is more clearly established. Harbinger
reveals that in the previous cycle, the prothean empire became too vast
and they began to control all the other races, which would have
prevented all of our races from developing. However, through more
discussion, Shepard can uncover their true motives. They fear that they
will be rivaled by something more powerful than they are (that this
cycle will create AI that can topple the reapers). This implies they are
merely fearful for their own survival and that is why they purge all
life but they convince themselves they are protecting us. 

Either way, you can submit to him and save your people
or take your chances. Having 4000 EMS, not submitting to him you would
lose everyone, but still eventually get to the three choices we actually
got (more on this in a second). Having 5000+ and depending on how you
resolved conflicts between characters and races, certain people will
live or die. 

After rejecting him (whether you lose everyone or not),
you end up in the area where vent boy was but hes not there. It's just
you and "Harbinger". He explains that a new solution is needed. The
solution he tries to convince you to take is merge (to perseve his
kind). But if you have high enough reputation once again, you can open
the control and destroy option. Harbinger tries to talk you out of it by
discussing how your races are divided and mentioning the geth incident.
You convince him otherwise, and it is at this point, the control option
opens next where he admits that shepard may have a perspective he never
considered. Harbinger tells Shepard that if he destroys them, the
relays will be destroyed as will the geth (which is true. This is the
only ending where the relays are destroyed). 

Now for the four endings. 

If you submit to him before the three main choices, the
reapers leave earth but end up wiping out every other race who haven't
proved themselves worthy. Shepard dies. 

If you merge, the reapers leave and like the ending we
got, we see all the characters we know with green eyes as a green light
brightens the sky. Shepard dies for the same reasons in the ending we
got. (become one with the reapers, not synthesis)

The control option, the reapers leave. Everyone
cautiously celebrates while joker and your LI look up to the sky and
wonder what exactly happened. Life goes on but its hinted that the
reaper threat may return. This ending ends on a cliffhanger. 

The destroy ending does destroy the relays, but its
implied that with all the races on earth, they, together, will restore
what they lost and will attempt to work together. if shepard lives, your
LI leading your squad, will be looking for you. You are beamed back
down to earth (its assumed shepard was somehow blasted into the beam?
this is the only questionable part). It ends with shepard's hand coming
out of the rubble and breathing. Still a cliffhanger of sorts, but you
can assume they will find him/her obviously.

indoctrination was supposed to be part of it & the dreams stages of ndoctrination but it was dropped because they had no time. Arrival was supposed to be the first stage of it. In thefinalhourofmasseffect3 there was supposed to be a bossfight but was cut
On Deciding the End of the Game:
The illusive man boss
fight had been scrapped... but there was still much debate. 'One night
Walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end
with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the
page.'

In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up
until the end of 2011. Martin Sheen's voice-over session for the
illusive man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until
mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending.

And
even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an
endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's
movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped
because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement
alongside dialogue choices).

So, changes were made to
the end of the game at the last minute, and the Devs were originally
trying to include a mechanic where the Reapers were actually physically
ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL of Shepard's body?

It makes sense then
that there are so many subtle hints for indoctrination affecting Shepard
towards the end of the game, if this was (one of) the original plans!

Arrival was supposed to to show the stage of Shepard's indoctrination
the dreams the next stage & there would have been a boss battle
against harbinger/Illusive man harbinger takes over Illusive man tries
to control Shepard try to break free from it but they didn't have the
time to finish it, it also set Harbinger as the main antagonist

From script

That refer to TIM dialogue, i'm afraid...

The leaked script had a lot of prompts like:
"you are losing control"
"you are regaining control"
(Don't know if it's true)
www.youtube.com/watch
www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect-3/3030-29935/forums/supposed-true-endings-according-to-guy-on-gamefaqs-539248/
www.youtube.com/watch  Legions conversation
"technology is not a straight lines there
are many customers and accepting anothers path blinds you to alternatives" sovereig said it The journey is also important
Indoctrination
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9809289/1
Strange sound on the Normandy
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
Part of EDI was reaperteach
Indoctrination documentary
Proof
www.nowgamer.com/news/1200119/mass_effect_3_bioware_talks_more_complex_endings_dlc.html
www.x360magazine.com/general/mass-effect-3-has-many-different-endings/
www.youtube.com/watch  www.youtube.com/watch Extracted from the ending files
sound files
http://www.mediafire...a9hk2ha5xpqp3tk 
http://www.mediafire...l4yz1rt1dfwd6fi 
http://www.mediafire...a9hk2ha5xpqp3tk 
http://www.mediafire...l4yz1rt1dfwd6fi
http://www.mediafire...m19xma7bzqf727m
Shep and Anderson Cut Dialogue
FemShep and Anderson Cut Dialogue
[/list]
That must be why the platforms for destroy & control comes up after the starbrat
damn I am now convinced this was the original it explains why harbinger got a big role in ME2
Thats also why control & destroy have platforms that comes up

Interviews From The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3
www.youtube.com/watch


this suports it
In me2 i heard something after shep boarded the reaper

& if you remember what edi said cerberus connected think it was the reaper brain to her
The dreams was supposed to be stages of indoctrination

Lyrandori wrote...

I
now have no more doubts in my mind about it (I did some time ago). I am
100% certain that, to some extent, Shepard is definitely under the
effect(s) of indoctrination. Let me explain. I know I'm not the only one
who believes it, but this thread is basically for anyone whom might not
have considered it as something serious enough so far...

INDOCTRINATION

It's
a "slow process", but it eventually either controls one's mind or
influences it to any given extent (completely, or partially, either
temporarily, or permanently, but it usually ends up being permanent, or
causing permanent damage, or permanent influence). The process takes
time and seems to be different based on the affected individuals, so it
wouldn't take a week for every single living organisms out there, the
time it takes to impact any life form's mind isn't universal. It could
take hours for some, or days for others, perhaps even weeks, but
ultimately it's just a question of time and exposure. How it happens is
exposure over time to Reaper technology. Be it artifacts, Reaper ship,
Reaper "remains", etc, anything related to Reaper technology and
proximity to it, from what we know.

The ME1, ME2 and ME3's Codex
entries about Indoctrination are clear enough, there's also the Mass
Effect Wiki's page about it:
http://masseffect.wi.../Indoctrination (that page does not
include entries of in-game examples of Indoctrination from ME2 nor ME3)

ARRIVAL (First Phase)

In
Arrival, after Shepard's "last stand" in the facility, you fail, either
by "dying" (assuming it's severe injuries and not actual death per se)
or if you manage to survive the whole "last stand" fight (you also gain
an achievement if you do, side note) then you still fail anyhow due to a
sudden burst of energy emitted by the Reaper artifact. After you are
downed, Kenson and some guards will come looking over you, their eyes
are all glowing (same glowing effect from Collectors eyes).

The
personnel of the facility along with Kenson were indoctrinated from
exposure over time to the Reaper artifact, obvious and of course
confirmed by Kenson's actions against Shepard, but also in her logs and
the personnel's logs that you can read through the mission. It is
obvious that Shepard, upon arriving at the facility (before the fight,
of course) is not seeing the glowing effects on the personnel's eyes,
nor on Kenson's, even though at that point Shepard does speak to
indoctrinated people including Kenson. It is only after the fight (or
after the energy wave from the artifact), rather after "some exposure"
near the artifact that Shepard sees the glowing eyes.

Shepard is
kept two days in the facility, unconscious, being sedated. It is at the
very least two complete consecutive days of exposure to a fully active
and responsive (responsive to the Reapers' proximity and arrival, as
explained by Kenson) Reaper artifact that effectively indoctrinated
everyone in the facility. During those 48 hours (or so) Shepard isn't
conscious and is surrounded by indoctrinated subjects. That artifact
isn't damaged nor "weak", it is fully functional and active, even if
extremely old. I'd assume that exposure to a fully functional Reaper
artifact has much more dangerous potential and efficiency for
indoctrination than anything else that might have been inert or barely
functional.

ARRIVAL (Second Phase)

Shepard regains
consciousness, and only has a few moments left before the Reapers'
arrival via the Alpha Relay. We stop Kenson, and have to race our way
outside to find a Shuttle (unable to contact Normandy). On the surface
we fight the escaping guards but all Shuttles are taken, we kill all the
remaining guards and contact the Normandy again, at which point...

At
which point either the Collector General or Harbinger APPEARS "out of
nowhere" to speak to Shepard. THAT is a CRUCIAL moment in the DLC.
Indeed, if you haven't completed the Suicide Mission at that point, the
Collector General speaks as Harbinger's avatar, but if you did complete
it, then it is Harbinger itself speaking to you, either way you speak to
Harbinger. What needs to be understood is that there are NO control
panels anywhere near the location of the conversation, outside, on the
surface of the asteroid, which happens to be a landing pad, the
"hologram"-like appearance is a VISION that was NOT generated by any
computational means, there's no monitors producing the image.

In
Arrival, Shepard suffers from his/her first extent of Indoctrination,
and the "conversation" happens to Shepard as a vision even though
Shepard speaks out loud as if Harbinger was physically right in front.
After the "conversation" the "hologram" vision slowly fades away, and
then we immediately see the Normandy arriving to pick up Shepard.

Look
at this video, tell me if the LANDING PAD above which the
"hologram"-like vision appears out of nowhere could have generated the
apparition by any electronic (or other) means nearby, and let me know:



HARBINGER IN ME2

Excluding
Arrival's Indoctrination effects on Shepard, we have to remember that
Shepard does spend "some time" (figurative, not necessarily the same
amount of time during which the mission takes place) inside the derelict
Reaper... INSIDE a Reaper of all things, which obviously Indoctrinated
the Cerberus personnel that was studying it. That moment may have been
"one of" the several Reaper tech exposures that Shepard suffered from
(not necessarily the first ever, but one of them) but that didn't
necessarily physically had any significant toll on Shepard's body nor
mind at that point (it's a slow process, and is different for everyone, I
do keep that in mind too).

It may have been part of the first
steps of Indoctrination, perhaps even forcibly done that way by the
Illusive Man in the hope to Indoctrinate a resurrected Shepard in the
long run by subtle seemingly "not enough" exposures, but that in the
long terms would have their effects on Shepard. (Theory)

Something
more specific, regarding Harbinger, is its various "one liners"
comments towards Shepard during combat. Not a SINGLE teammate has EVER
acknowledged hearing Harbinger during those battles. Already in ME2, by
whichever means or events that caused Shepard to be exposed to Reaper
technology, some effects are clear. I believe that perhaps the first
forms of perceptible extent(s) of Indoctrination on Shepard is the fact
that Shepard can "hear" (or call it "perceive") Harbinger speaking (even
if he's annoying, but that's beyond this subject) while no one else has
ever said nor asked anything about it.

Even Shepard him/herself
never asked anyone else if they ever heard it... it seems to be almost
heard unconsciously by Shepard, perhaps indifferently, without him/her
perhaps even realizing it. It may have been a subtle message by the
developers and/or the Writer(s), telling us the PLAYERS something along
the lines of: « Hey, your Shepard right now is hearing Harbinger speak,
and he's in Dark Space, that thing you're fighting is a
Reaper-controlled re-purposed Prothean turned-Collector, but it somehow
emits words out of nowhere and you can hear them, take a hint ».
(Theory)

Additionally, taken from the ME's Wiki page on Harbinger, quoting:

«
Harbinger's involvement first began in Mass Effect: Redemption, when it
made a deal with the Shadow Broker to gain possession of Commander
Shepard's body. »

We just need to connect the dots guys. If an
actual Reaper is interested in controlling (possessing, indoctrinating)
Shepard, it means a lot. Clear attempts are made to indoctrinate Shepard
in the whole trilogy, but it especially starts in ME2 (obviously, due
to the defeat of Sovereign in ME1, attracting attention of the Reapers,
or more specifically at least that of Harbinger).

NORMANDY SR-2 / EDI's HARDWARE (CORE)

There
IS Reaper technology ON BOARD the Normandy SR-2, and it's apparently
located in the Core (EDI's, or also where Legion is located).

Quoted from ME's Wiki page on the SR-2:

«
The Illusive Man restricted Shepard's access to some of EDI's files and
capabilities for unknown reasons, although EDI surmises that it's
probably because he doesn't want Shepard to know everything about
Cerberus just yet. EDI also gains access to "Anti-Reaper Algorithms"
later in the game, and states that she devotes significant processing
power to analyzing them. When pressed on this subject by Shepard as to
how she could hope to combat beings millions of years more advanced, she
reveals that she was in part designed by technology gained from
Sovereign's remains and thus, at least partially, based on Reaper
technology herself. »

However "insignificant" it may seem, there
IS Reaper tech on board (Sovereign's remains). How long does Shepard and
everyone on board spend in the SR-2? Well, the entire duration of ME2,
and... who knows, maybe the Core wasn't changed at all for the "refit"
that the Alliance did, and so we might still be spending all of ME3's
duration on board a perhaps very slightly "influential" SR-2. I DO
believe that even if whatever is being used for EDI's hardware seems too
little to be of concern, that it MAY have had "more" impact
specifically (or only) on Shepard, since obviously Shepard has been
exposed more often to, or longer to (or near) Reaper technology.

ME3

Doctor
Chakwas (after being recruited if you did of course) will ask you if
she can scan you for a check up of some sort, related to the implants
(in Shepard's body), and if done I believe she said that there was no
sign of rejection by the body of those implants (can't recall the exact
word-by-word dialog). But she wanted to make sure about it. It might
seem like a normal medical procedure (general checkup), no biggie,
right? Well, I think that it is a HINT (another), that MAYBE (pure
speculation on my part, no proof) at that point in ME3 all the Reaper
tech exposure that Shepard has suffered from (even if the body didn't
physically react to it by then) in the past up until that point would
inevitably take its toll and that it would happen very soon, manifesting
in Shepard's mind AND body.

We know by now that Shepard during
ME3's events has nightmares, and that each time he/she wakes up from
them there appears to be a headache (Shepard holding head). I don't see
how anyone by now could conclude anything else than Shepard suffering
from some of the first real signs of indoctrination, especially if at
least one actual Reaper shows interest in controlling Shepard to start
with (Harbinger).

CONCLUSION

It is evident to me that
Shepard IS indoctrinated, it might have even started in ME1 for all we
know. Sorry but being exposed to Sovereign like Shepard was at the end,
running right in front of it (as we battled our way towards the tower),
don't tell me that there was not a single form of energy emissions
coming from the Reaper ship (the hull, the Core, whatever, even if we
had no visual indication of that happening) towards which we raced to
get to Saren. That thing was two kilometers long, active, moving, alive,
and Shepard happens to just be several hundred meters away from it? And
that wouldn't have had any impact whatsoever? Well, ok... no proof, but
how can you prove indoctrination anyway, it's invisible to start with,
but ok, it's just a theory.

But even if it didn't "start" in ME1
per se, at least I'm sure it did in ME2. If not right from the start
thanks to the Lazarus Project. We know that there's "implants" in
Shepard's body. To bring back ANY forms of life from DEATH I wouldn't
believe one second that conventional medicine science and technology
however "experimental" it may have been could bring Shepard back to life
from actual clinical death. Not only that, but actually restore the
brain, the memory, the personality and the appearance? Why not a cake
with all of that? No way. It had to be done with Reaper technology (and
remember, Sovereign remains were found, some of which used for EDI's
hardware... who knows what the "rest" was used for).

Why did I make this thread?

1)
Some people still don't think by now that Shepard actually is
indoctrinated, and has been for a very long time. I'd highly recommend
to think about it again.

2) A lot of people do not believe in the
"Hallucination" theory, saying that those who believe in it (even if
we're many) are just believing in it out of desperation for "better" or
"more" endings. Since we don't like the ones we have and we're so
depressed that the only way to calm and comfort ourselves about it is by
believing that it was all a nightmare.

3) Well, think about it
again but with consideration to the FACT that Shepard IS indoctrinated,
and Shepard DOES have those nightmares in ME3, if anything, which cannot
be denied. Even if you'd happen to believe that ANY exposure to Reaper
tech prior to ME3 should NOT mean that Shepard is indoctrinated, you
still can't deny the nightmares in ME3 prior to the "hallucination"
scene at the end. And those nightmares obviously have a link to the
Guardian (same child appearing each time).

Ultimately, I believe
that the hallucination is real, that it is the ultimate indoctrination
effect on Shepard, that it culminated right there at that point from all
Shepard's past exposures. In my mind, it is clear now, everything
connects. I do NOT know if ANY of that was actually INTENDED by the
writer(s) or the developers, that's something else entirely. I'm
connecting the dots, but maybe the dots weren't even considered to be
connected at all and all of my conclusions are nothing by mere
coincidence. It IS possible that even if any of this DOES make "sense"
that the devs didn't actually intend to subtly present us with this
"evidence" over time, something that WE the players would have had to
figure out by ourselves. I do consider it believe me.

But, if
anything, all of this means at least ONE thing. If Shepard is
indoctrinated (and again I do believe Shepard is), then the last scene
could indeed have been a real indoctrinated-vision, perhaps even
completely controlled and provoked by either the Guardian star boy
entity thing, OR, think about it... perhaps even Harbinger who just
happened to land RIGHT IN FRONT of you? No? And HE (well... "it") wanted
to possess your body if possible? "Preserve Shepard's body if possible"
(in ME2) Remember that one? I'm even starting to wonder if the
hallucination isn't some sort of a "test of will and reason" (almost
like a purgatory of sorts) for humanity (or on behalf of all organic
species) via Shepard's controlled mind (thanks to indoctrination), from
which... from which any "NEW" conclusions might be made by Harbinger or
the Guardian for new outcomes...

Food for thought.

Toward the end the noises become stronger
strange noices in the normandy
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11995829/1

Indoctrination makes sense if there was going to be a bossbattle & harbinger was trying to take control of shepard
take in the comics the illusive man came near a reaper device he's indoctrinated & how else does he have an army

Sorry it just supports a theory I have about the real ending bioware
were trying to make but ran out of time
Illusive man indoctrinated back in me 2 noises thar gets worse the
closer to the end you get inside normandy, shep is the only one hearing
harbingers quotes in me 2, cerberus husk experiment me1 cerberus army
& an ending that makes more sense


Paul grayson in the novel mass effect retribution had same sort of
dreams, hearing things like shep was hearing harbinger subconsciously in
me2 he was implanted with cerberus implants & got indoctrinated
trough them. seeing oily shadows hearing dead comrades, hearing reaper
hums on the normandy seing things thats not there is part of the
process. (that book explains the indoctrination process

Modifié par Troxa, 08 juillet 2013 - 06:28 .

[Kunari801]

Troxa it's not a bad outline, don't know if it's true or not but looks better on paper.

[KaiserShep]

Man that would've been way way better.

[Aravius]

Hindsight kicks in...... And why didn't they just do this??

[EagleScoutDJB]

Would have been much better with no explnation. In just a few lines of dialog the Reapers went from being the Borg of TNG, this unknowable unstopable force that only a maricle could save us from, to the Borg of Voyager, the joke of the week.

Modifié par dbollendorf, 01 mai 2013 - 10:04 .

[Faust1979]

No that would have sucked because that was one of the points of the story for me why they were doing all this, sure the Reaper said in the first game was beyond our comprehension but bad guys always say that in stories and in movies. But I liked the idea of why they were really doing it, it was awesome actually and the fact that some people keep complaining about the ending or still don't get it even after the Leviathon DLC means that it is beyond some people'es comprehension.  Villains in stories often have ulterior motives and this one works they see it as making races better and improving them and destroying parts of the race that fight back.

[Argetfalcon]

No I wouldn't. We have enough annoying speculation as it is

[AlanC9]

That Reaper explanation makes even less sense than the one we got.

[Iakus]

KaiserShep wrote...

Man that would've been way way better.

Well, judging by those charts the geth are screwed no matter what, so that sucks.

But otherwise it looks way better than what we've got, both original and EC.

It even allows for Shepard to live inbest-case Control and Destroy.

[grey_wind]

I'd have liked hints. We should have learned tidbits about the Reapers, that when put together one could extrapolate the outline of some grand purpose.

If they wanted to go the extra mile, perhaps the clues we get even contradict each other, and we have to decide what to believe and what not to. That would have been the good kind of speculation.

Any attempt to try and concretely explain the Reapers in a flat exposition dump was going to fail, and honestly doesn't fit with the aura of god-machines the devs try to convey.

[David7204]

Intentionally contradictory clues would have just lead to players shrieking 'RETCON RETCON ROFL.' Many people on the BSN just do not seem smart enough to figure them out. Look at examples like Zaeed founding the Blue Suns instead of that batarian.

[3DandBeyond]

KaiserShep wrote...

Man that would've been way way better.

Absolutely would have been far better than what we got.  It would have given a rational reason for what the reapers were doing, even if they were misguided or malevolent.  And even with a non-reunion, the idea that there's a heavier implication of a reunion is far better.  It's also actually a real variety and there's no star kid.  Having Harbinger be the one Shepard confronts makes so much more sense.  All of it makes more sense.

[Ledgend1221]

Leaving them a mystery would still give them that "speculation" they were going for without ****ing up the universe.

[Robhuzz]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Well, I'd rather have no explanation than the one we got, so yeah...

No I mean ignoring comparisons to what we got (anything else would come out favourable) if you were just playing it through for the first time, and it was a good ending where you defeated the Reapers but the plot never touched on where they came from or why they do what they do, would you be satisfied with that?

I definitely would be satisfied with that. As Vigil said in ME1 you don't need to understand them. You just have to stop them. I would've preferred it if they had just dropped a few hints but left the true origins and motivations of the Reapers unexplained. I could even do without the hints.

[3DandBeyond]

grey_wind wrote...

I'd have liked hints. We should have learned tidbits about the Reapers, that when put together one could extrapolate the outline of some grand purpose.

If they wanted to go the extra mile, perhaps the clues we get even contradict each other, and we have to decide what to believe and what not to. That would have been the good kind of speculation.

Any attempt to try and concretely explain the Reapers in a flat exposition dump was going to fail, and honestly doesn't fit with the aura of god-machines the devs try to convey.

I do agree.  Part of the issue for me is that at the end, BW seems to have concluded the story was "The Mystery of the Reapers" as if it was somehow pertinent to find out their origins in order to help them or the kid or someone.  Except the story never played out as a mystery but for the beginning of ME1-and then that was only so up until Shepard tells Liara the reapers destroyed the Protheans.  The big mystery was why were the geth doing what they were doing and why was Saren.  But we learned all that.

For the current endings to have any relevance (and the kid and the idea we needed to know how the reapers were born and why they were harvesting people), the game needed to make that a clear pursuit.  Hints along the way at some thing that was controlling the reapers and the purpose.  Small ones to begin with and then ever bigger hints, so at the end, the player puts it all together and fully understands how it fits.  This game has nothing like that.

[3DandBeyond]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Leaving them a mystery would still give them that "speculation" they were going for without ****ing up the universe.

Ever see the movie Jaws?  Well, the way I see it ME was kind of like Jaws in space.  In Jaws, it wasn't so important to understand how the shark got that big and why it was so obsessed with killing people.  What was important was to kill it so it couldn't keep doing what it was doing.

I use it in my tagline-the kid's own words.  I don't care why fire burns, I don't care that it has no purpose, no worries of right or wrong.  I need lots of water to put it out.  And I need to get rid of the piece of garbage with a blow torch that started the fire.  Once the fire is out, any relevant question as to what happened can then be asked and answered.  Kill the reapers and then study them to your heart's content.

[Rhayak]

For me, the explanation should've stayed the way it was at the end of ME2.

Reapers are abominable parasites who harvest civilizations to reproduce. End of it. They are a cancer.

Pure, simple, HUGE motivation for killing them all and feeling fine about it.

Modifié par Rhayak, 03 mai 2013 - 08:07 .

[cyrexwingblade]

My two cents: I wanted an explanation, but the one we got definitely made the Reapers look sad/pathetic rather than 'great villains'. They're just badly programmed AI with bigger guns.

I was hoping it would be something like organic races are their fuel, but they're actually fighting a pan-galactic war with another race the entire time, and the Cycle is just them coming back to refuel.

[3DandBeyond]

Robhuzz wrote...

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Well, I'd rather have no explanation than the one we got, so yeah...

No I mean ignoring comparisons to what we got (anything else would come out favourable) if you were just playing it through for the first time, and it was a good ending where you defeated the Reapers but the plot never touched on where they came from or why they do what they do, would you be satisfied with that?

I definitely would be satisfied with that. As Vigil said in ME1 you don't need to understand them. You just have to stop them. I would've preferred it if they had just dropped a few hints but left the true origins and motivations of the Reapers unexplained. I could even do without the hints.

That's the thing.  Once the endings were created there was always going to be a rift.  There are always those who stick up for devs no matter what, always those who complain for no reason no matter what, and then there are those in between.  This game had a lot more well thought out opposition than just some random complaining.  Had the endings been some variety of win, lose, sacrifice, or screw it all up and get your team killed, "cheesy", and very very sad, even if it wasn't the greatest ending ever made, it would have satisfied most people.  Even those that now say they wouldn't ever want any other ending but what they have now.  But, changing it after the fact, the idea of changing it, got a lot of people's tighty whiteys in a bunch because they didn't want to see other people happy.  It's a fact because some even said they'd never want it changed even if they never had to see new content. 

I'd have rather had the reapers be a total mystery, defeatable even if it took extreme measures, and merely a malevolent lifeform much as the Predator really was in the first Predator movie.  To explain them and to be all about their motivations (they really lacked any since the kid controlled them), ended up diminishing them.  The story always was about the people and what they did to fight the enemy and the enemy could have been killer puppies for all that it mattered.

[3DandBeyond]

cyrexwingblade wrote...

My two cents: I wanted an explanation, but the one we got definitely made the Reapers look sad/pathetic rather than 'great villains'. They're just badly programmed AI with bigger guns.

I was hoping it would be something like organic races are their fuel, but they're actually fighting a pan-galactic war with another race the entire time, and the Cycle is just them coming back to refuel.

Actually, you and the poster before you point out really what made the most sense.  The idea that the reapers actually do "feed" on organics and then reproduce and the cycle is what takes place after they come out of hibernation.  Much of the games pointed to this.  And it would have fit the fish hints that were everywhere within the game.

It made complete sense based upon the idea of taking the most advanced races (culling the herd, or taking only the big fish and throwing the rest back).  It also made sense based upon their seeding the galaxy with tech-feeding the fish so they are ready for the harvest.  All of it fit. 

[SpamBot2000]

Well, that alternative ending thing still has the freaking green space magic. What the hell is up with that?

[dreamgazer]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Well, that alternative ending thing still has the freaking green space magic. What the hell is up with that?

It's not easy being green. 

[Dubozz]

iakus wrote...

Well, I'd rather have no explanation than the one we got, so yeah...

[AlanC9]

The problem with the harvests being for Reaper reproduction is the horrible inefficiency of the process.

If you simply want organics for reproduction, exterminating them and waiting for new ones to develop technology makes no sense. Something like the Goa'uld operation would give you much better and sustainable yields.

 And if you need new species for some reason, 50,000 years is still far too long to wait. The Reapers should have given out agriculture and so forth to cavemen, caveasari, etc. the moment they finished off the protheans. Though I guess we could handwave that away easily enough -- the Reapers did give agriculture to the other Citadel races, but Humans Are Special, and we did in 10,000 years what took the asari 50,000 to accomplish.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 mai 2013 - 08:54 .