159 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

They can claim to be smart characters all day long. It makes no difference. If the writers don't write them as smart, it isn't true.

All three of those examples work by letting things slide which which need to be addressed in Mass Effect. And that's their right - they don't have to face problems such as this.

Modifié par David7204, 07 mai 2013 - 02:08 .

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

They can claim to be smart characters all day long. It makes no difference. If the writers don't write them as smart, it isn't true.

So just because a character doesn't know the answer to absolutely everything regarding their world, enemies, or whatever, then they aren't "smart"? Your standards for "smart" are way too high.

David7204 wrote...
All three of those examples work by letting things slide which which need to be addressed in Mass Effect. And that's their right - they don't have to face problems such as this.

Except they didn't "need to be addressed" in Mass Effect either. Remember what Vigil said in ME1: "In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them." Also remember that the Reapers were heavily inspired by Lovecraft, and part of what made Lovecraft's creations so terrifying and effective was how little we and the protagonists knew about their origins/motives.

[David7204]

It doesn't matter what Vigil says. Shepard isn't the kind of person to just let that mystery slide, and neither would a great deal of players. This isn't Lovecraft. The Reapers aren't meant to be eternal. They're meant to be killed. It's a sacrifice, of sorts. You have to give up the theme of horror to build up the theme of heroism.

Modifié par David7204, 07 mai 2013 - 02:43 .

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

It doesn't matter what Vigil says. Shepard isn't the kind of person to just let that mystery slide, and neither would a great deal of players.

Who are you to say what kind of person Shepard is? All player's Shepards are different. The moment someone claims that "Shepard would never do this or that", they forfeit their entire argument because Shepard represents the player and all players are different. And where are your "great deal of players"? Every poll I've seen on this subject says that they're greatly outnumbered by players who would've preferred keeping the Reapers a mystery.

David7204 wrote...
This isn't Lovecraft. The Reapers aren't meant to be eternal. They're meant to be killed. It's a sacrifice, of sorts.

No, this isn't Lovecraft, but that doesn't mean Bioware can't learn a few things from him, and they certainly learned ALOT from him when they were creating the Reapers.

Yes, the Reapers are meant to be killed, but that doesn't mean we have to know everything about them. Shadow of the Colossus has us killing sixteen Colossi about whom the player knows very little. We never learn how they came to be, how old they are, what their purpose is, etc. And yet that game is highly acclaimed by fans and critics alike for its gameplay and story. Fans of the game are still debating over the game's story, simply because there are so many ways to interpret it. Yet another example of where mystery works.

David7204 wrote...
You have to give up the theme of horror to build up the theme of heroism.

False Dichotomy. Themes of horror and heroism are not mutually exclusive at all. Are people like Isaac Clarke, Alan Wake, or Ellen Ripley any less of a hero because they're in horror-based franchises? I don't know how you got such an absurd idea. I've always felt heroes in horror scenarios are even more heroic because you can tell they're scared too but that doesn't stop them from doing the right thing.

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

MrFob wrote...

Giving no explanation at all is a bit unsatisfactory, especially for paragon characters IMO. After all, if you just defeat the reapers without understanding them, you didn't really solve the problem, you just got lucky and exterminated the unkoen threat. It reminds me of Starship Troopers. Who cares what the bugs are, really, as long as we can stomp them into the muck.

Personally I think that would have made for some interesting aftermath scenes. Shepard and Hackett could have a private meeting contemplating just what the hell could have gone wrong that resulted in the creation of the Reapers, and since they can't answer that, could it happen again. Of course, amidst that dramatic backdrop there would still be the hope that comes with the, "The Reapers are dead and we are FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!", feeling.

However, while I may find that interesting, I will fully admit that it could seem a little out of place and would almost certaintly ****** people off.

Long story short, I think not explaining their motives would be better than what we got, but your ideas on how it could have been done are interesting as well.

[Shaigunjoe]

someguy1231 wrote...

No, this isn't Lovecraft, but that doesn't mean Bioware can't learn a few things from him, and they certainly learned ALOT from him when they were creating the Reapers.

The obviously learned enough to know what BS Lovecraft horrors are.  From the get go Reapers have been a mix of cosmology and mysticism in what would otherwise be a somewhat grounded scifi universe.  The ending was pretty much a pitch perfect conclusion to what the reapers represented.

Also, learn how to spell a lot, this might help:
http://hyperboleanda...everything.html

I am usually not this pedantic, but making a spelling mistake in all caps is probably a cry for help.

False Dichotomy. Themes of horror and heroism are not mutually exclusive at all. Are people like Isaac Clarke, Alan Wake, or Ellen Ripley any less of a hero because they're in horror-based franchises? I don't know how you got such an absurd idea. I've always felt heroes in horror scenarios are even more heroic because you can tell they're scared too but that doesn't stop them from doing the right thing.

It isn't a false dichotomy, whether or not you want to exchange heroism for horror is completly up to the author, it isn't a true dicotomy either, but it also isn't false.  If you wanted to make a case for it being false, please use better examples.  Both Isaac Clarke and Ripley throw horror out the window as the character's progressed and upped the heroism.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 07 mai 2013 - 03:47 .

[Enhanced]

someguy1231 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It doesn't matter what Vigil says. Shepard isn't the kind of person to just let that mystery slide, and neither would a great deal of players.

Who are you to say what kind of person Shepard is? All player's Shepards are different. The moment someone claims that "Shepard would never do this or that", they forfeit their entire argument because Shepard represents the player and all players are different. And where are your "great deal of players"? Every poll I've seen on this subject says that they're greatly outnumbered by players who would've preferred keeping the Reapers a mystery.

Sorry, but all Shepards are not different.  We are all basically playing a soldier who knows the first rule of war, know your enemy.  In all 3 games, Shepard is trying to find out what he/she can about the Reapers . It's not the player's choice. Poll about preferences don't really matter. Like or not, part of Shepard's mission is to learn about his/her enemies, and that's what happens.

Modifié par Enhanced, 07 mai 2013 - 01:35 .

[Zan51]

And what happens when you have learned all you can about the enemy and cannot find out more? Stop the fight, we don't know enough?
The purpose of this is to defeat the enemy, not understand them beyond the point where we can successfully counter their attacks, and plan ours accordingly as well as take the offensive to them. Understanding the enemy is for finding their weak spots, blind sides, not knowing them so well that we know what bedtime stories they read their kids!

An old adage is one that says that the research is not the sum total of the effort, only a part of it. If the research becomes the goal, we have lost the war.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Bumping a six month old thread... n00bs gonna n00b.

As to the question in the thread title...

Anyone else? Yes. Everybody else? No. (& IBTL)