Equal rights in Thedas? Looking at all the cultures of Thedas, i have yet to see it. Who would the mages be equal to? Would it be the peasants/serfs, the commoners, the nobility, the casteless, the magisters, the slaves? Equal rights in Thedas rings hollow as no explored culture/society has equality among them.
View on mages almost turned on its head due to Until We Sleep Comic page
Débuté par
Genshie
, mai 01 2013 09:04
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#227
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 03:15
lil yonce
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- Members
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Your sarcasm kills all positive and worthwhile discussion. If you'd rather not talk about alternative options on a discussion forum I guess won't bother.Plaintiff wrote...
How very nice for you. Maybe you can enact it in a fanfiction about an alternate Thedas where the Templars are not overzealous, uncompromising bigots.
I'm out.
#228
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 03:53
LobselVith8
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- Members
- 16 993 messages
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
We don't have to discuss it if you'd prefer. [/quote]
No need to worry. I know when to hop off the merry go round.
[/quote]
Fair enough.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The mages made a democratic vote for autonomy..... [/quote]
Doesn't make their methods any less retarded. I think their methods to freedom was discussed in another thread already. So I'll just say that I disagree with your opinion and stick with my own from that thread. [/quote]
Here's the issue: I don't see anything wrong with the mages refusing to accept being ruled over by the Andrastian Chantry or the Order of Templars. I don't see why you continue to vilify mages when the templars are the ones who are actively trying to kill them, which means the mages are fighting in self-defense against their would-be murderers. Simply because the Chantry and the templars think they have divine right over mages doesn't make it so, and their emancipation from the Chantry was simply that: a decision to live their lives free of a regime that had absolute authority over mages, to the point that multiple characters and authors condemned the institution as slavery.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
However, that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore scenarios where mages simply don't make any sense. Decimus shouldn't have thought Hawke and his moiety crew were templars, especially with Merrill among his company. Tahrone looked like a crack addict and sounded like a raving lunatic, making it unrealistic that anyone would follow her. Grace made no sense when she wanted to exact revenge on Hawke for helping her, to the point of killing templars to protect her and her fellow Starkhaven mages. [/quote]
Why would Decimus believe you when he knew the exits were guarded by Templars thus a Templar let you in. I doubt he thought Hawke was a Templar but seriously, you got a free pass to come in that cave by a Templar who was tracking them down. It makes sense that he would shoot first and ask questions later. And why would be trust you cause you got Merrill? He doesn't know her and for all he knows she could be hired help.
Grace was a nagging whiner who blames Hawke for her getting caught again which only shows how dumb and sheltered she is and she doesn't kill her Starkhaven mages, they were in the back helping her out. Is it odd for mages like Quentin to exist? the imperium is full of dudes like him. And I don't recall actually having to do a spell to learn how it works so Orsino knowing that blood magic spell makes sense. You got to learn it to do it! [/quote]
That misses the point about why Decimus attacks Hawke and his moiety crew: he thinks they are templars. Why would Decimus think that Merrill is a templar? Or Varric, Isabela, Anders, Fenris, or an apostate Hawke? We already know what templars look like. None of Hawke's companions fit the description, especially the non-human ones. I point out Merrill in particular because the templars hunt down the Dalish clans, which is why they are nomadic in the first place (as she points out to Hawke).
Furthermore, Grace is another example of a mage who simply doesn't make sense. Why would she attack Hawke if he helped her and the other Starkhaven mages? It's so stupid. It's railroading the plot so that everyone comes to the same conclusion, even though the pieces don't fit. If my protagonist is pro-mage, I shouldn't have Thrask or Grace as enemies who think I oppose them; it's as simple as that. It's bad writing otherwise.
As for Quentin, what was the point? He's insane, right out of a soap opera, with a deceased wife that just happens to look like Leandra. It's implied he's from the Circle of Starkhaven from Gascard's note, which makes it all the more strange that Orsino even knew him (not to mention the research seemed utterly pointless, but that's another discussion for another time - I can only handle so many stupid plot points at once). Quentin killed Leandra because he was a lunatic - not really much of a point there, aside from making me question why Hawke didn't bring up a serial killer killing women in the city to his mother.
It's like the developers wanted to have storylines that cautioned about dangerous mages, but they did it in the most ridiculous way as to completely miss the point of the dichotomy between mages and templars. If you fill the narrative with lunatics, there simply isn't a point. It becomes an entirely different story about people with mental instability instead. Insane and stupid mages don't prove anything. Connor was a better example of the dangers that magic pose, but that bleeds over into the fact that even pro-mages think mages should be properly trained in the use of their abilities; simply not by an anti-mage religious order that wants to control every mage in the Andrastian kingdom.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Meredith was murdering civilians with her death squad in broad daylight, [/quote]
Please post a vid to that cause I am missing some major content in my game then. not being sarcastic here, I really never saw that and you mention it more than once so I want to know where it occurs. Are there npcs talking about it or something? Cause poo on the devs for only having something like that talked about but never shown. [/quote]
Hawke saves a defenseless woman who is about to be killed by Meredith's death squad because she fed her tortured mage cousin in the pro-mage run (specifically, the Act III quest "A Noble Agenda"). That's actually what they are referred to as in the quest log: "Head to Lowtown near Gamlen's house, and defeat Meredith's death squad." You can easily look up the quest on that site with videos by the title of the quest.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Divine and the Seekers of Truth did nothing about this for years. Even Leliana was willing to blame a small faction we only encounter once, instead of the despot who was causing unrest among the different groups living in Kirkwall. [/quote]
Those mages have been trying to seize power long before Meredith became Viscount and yes Leliana should focus on the people who eavesdrop on secret government meetings, sneak into the Viscount throne room at night, and try to assassinate officals. To say they should not focus on them is to say that no one should have focused on John Wilkes Booth and his co-conspirators. [/quote]
The Resolutionists only appear once. If they are such a concern, why does no one else mention them as a threat? Why do we never see them again?
And we already have someone who seized power: Meredith. Why doesn't the Divine do something about this? Or does she simply not care? And why is Leliana unable to figure out that perhaps the Knight-Commander turned dictator is causing unrest in the city?
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Those nobles exist in your world; they simply don't approach you because you support a despot. Just like the templars exist in the world of my pro-mage apostate Hawke. [/quote]
Oh I love it how you claim certain nobles exist in my gameplay world yet don't want to proclaim that there must also be nobles who agree with Meredith in yours. Instead you'll just say that Templars exist in your game world because only Templars agree with Meredith and everyone in your game world is 100% on your side and that can never happen in a game world you don't agree with. :innocent: [/quote]
Actually, there is a noble who sides with Meredith in my playthrough: Edgert the Hound. He betrays Ser Marlein and the other nobles who want to overthrow Meredith's dictatorship.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No one is inventing the issues they have with Meredith's dictatorship. [/quote]
Oh please show me Meredith's n*zi death camp gas chambers. [/quote]
I never said that, but Meredith's act of genocide against hundreds of innocent people would certainly lead to an enormous amount of dead bodies.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
"I let word slip that an agent of the Divine was coming to investigate the mage troubles". - Sister Nightingale
You were saying something about a secret meeting...?[/quote]
It's still a secret meeting taking place in a locked room that they weren't invited to and I don't believe the invite said "Bring your intent to kill" on it.
I guess if you overheard a complete stranger arrange a club meeting you'll automatically assume that the secret is out and you were invited. [/quote]
No more snarky remarks about how Leliana lured no one to the "secret meeting", eh?
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You pretty much ignore every point I make in explaining why I think Cullen is hardly any better than Meredith. Your point also handwaves the fact that Cullen stood by while hundreds of men, women, and children were being killed because Meredith condemned them for the actions of one man. I guess you could argue that he was just "following orders". [/quote]
I didn't ignore your point. I disagreed with you and stated why I feel Cullen is a better alternative than her. Cullen was there for the RoA and yes following orders but he alone spoke out against her and stated that the RoA is only for Circles that cannot be saved. He understands why the RoA exist and even though he hates mages he proved that he still would not abuse such power. He uncovered a mage plot to plant demons in Templars, he addressed concerns about Meredith to Hawke. I always headcanon my Viscount Hawke giving him Meredith's position. You don't have to agree with that as you're not playing my game. [/quote]
I suppose so, because I don't think he's much better than Meredith. Cullen is a templar who thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people and views them as weapons, supports the Tranquil Solution, and is willing to let hundreds of men, women, and children get killed even though they are innocent of Anders' actions. He's only willing to stop Meredith when she threatens Hawke specifically. If he appears in the next game, I would hope he isn't a mandatory companion.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Racist? That must explain Merrill being in a romance with my human Hawke, [/quote]
Racists bang people outside their race too. And yes her comments about calling Fenyrial a half breed and wondering why Marethari would even help him is racist. In the rival path, if you keep her stupid little tool from her she will let you know just what she thinks of human Hawke. Merrill didn't care at all about me shoving a knife in Ander's back, Varric is a dwarf not a human, and Isabela gets along with everyone. [/quote]
You're ignoring the fact that Merrill loves Hawke, and she enters into a romantic relationship with him, even though their children will be human (if Hawke is male). She gives Friendship points if you help Feynriel go to the Dalish, and if you refuse to make him tranquil when you speak with Marethari. She simply cautions Feynriel that his humanity would mark him among the people, not his magical ability - if he goes to the Sabrae clan.
She's also willing to protect the mages of Kirkwall - human and elven alike - when Meredith wants to commit genocide.
And if Hawke keeps the tool from Merrill, he's preventing her from research that could benefit her people - all the while being ignorant about the Eluvians and the plight of the People as a human who knows next to nothing about elves.
Also, Merrill advocates not killing Anders. And you're ignoring my points because they disprove yours.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
...not to mention she also doesn't want Fenris enslaved, despite the fact that he has also treated her monstrously for several years. [/quote]
Fenris is an Elf so how does that prove she isn't racist? [/quote]
Fenris isn't Dalish.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You seem to continue making comments that are easily disproven by the actual game. You might want to avoid that if you respond to this message. Just a suggestion. [/quote]
LOL!!! you are surely the one to talk. Perhaps you need to play more than just a mage Hawke who loves mages and romances Merrill. [/quote]
Considering how much you've gotten wrong (like Leliana revealing that she let word slip about the meeting), that's not really much of a retort. Especially since you basically imagined some statement from me that there aren't any nobles who oppose overthrowing Meredith, when such a comment doesn't exist in reality.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. It can't harm anyone, unless it is released. You do realize this is pointed out in the short story as well, right? And I'm not sure how Marethari protected Merrill when she released Audacity, became an abomination, and tried to kill her. [/quote]
There is no such thing as a harmless and safe demon, even one that is trapped, period. If Merrill was so sure of that she wouldn't have asked Hawke to come and put her down if something went wrong. Why is Merrill afriad for...according to you...no reason at all? [/quote]
Except Audacity can't harm anyone as long as it is trapped. All it can do is communicate. And Merrill suspects that Audacity is free in Act III, which is why she asks Hawke to accompany her. Audacity can only freed by a powerful spell. It turns out that her suspicions are correct, because Marethari freed Audacity from its prison.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think the mages are stupid simply because they chose a life of freedom over one of servitude.... [/quote]
And the point flies right over head. Mages are not stupid for wanting freedom, sweetheart. They are stupid because they chose a dumb way to get it. [/quote]
Democracy?
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I killed Qunari who threatened everyone. Elves, humans, dwarves. It doesn't matter that some of those Qunari were also elves. [/quote]
Good. And I kill Mages and Qunari who threaten everyone. Regardless of their reasons for why they are doing what they are doing. [/quote]
Men, women, and children who simply want to flee Kirkwall weren't threatening everyone.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it doesn't make any sense. I already explained how the situations are completely different. [/quote]
And I disagree with you. The city guards were coming for those elves and demanded they be handed over, most likely to not recieve a fair trial if one at all and probably face imprisonment or execution. The Arishok protected them and had enough of the crap that was Kirkwall and demanded that things be the way he wants them to be. The mages were facing execution and fought to protect themselves and now their leader's actions will cause a war and why? Because they had enough of the crap that is the chantry and are now demanding that things be the way they want it to be. Yep sounds about similar to me with slight differences here and there. [/quote]
You can't dispute facts. The scenarios simply aren't the same. The hundreds of men, women, and children who Meredith wanted to kill were fleeing Kirkwall because the templars were trying to kill them for something they didn't do, while the Qunari elves wanted to help the Qunari rule over everyone - the elves of the Alienage included.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You realize the Alienage elves would have suffered under the Qunari as well, right? The horror stories about the people who refused to convert to the Qun? That's what makes your argument so absurd. [/quote]
Those elves that joined the Qun seemed to have no problem being where they are. If the others made a mistake etc oh well. I never once argued that the Qun was wonderful. But about how those city elves joined to help take down Kirkwall because of the rampant abuses they were suffering within the alienages and how you don't care cause they aren't mages. [/quote]
You realize they work people to death who don't follow the Qun, right? In mines and construction camps.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
While Meredith's templars are killing hundreds of men, women, and children because that is precisely what she ordered. You saved three mages who will likely be made tranquil. [/quote]
My Hawke is Viscount with Cullen as Knight Captain. So no those mages won't be made Tranquil. Don't try and play headcanon on my game. Just stick to imagining all the mages Varric claims were saved during your promage playthrough but were never actually shown.
[/quote]
Actually, according to the developer, those mages will likely be made tranquil - that's what usually happens to mages who are spared during the Right of Annulment. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
They were following orders by murdering an entire population of innocent people. [/quote]
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure the fact that Meredith asks you to commit genocide against innocent people is something you care nothing about.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
We don't have to discuss it if you'd prefer. [/quote]
No need to worry. I know when to hop off the merry go round.
[/quote]Fair enough.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The mages made a democratic vote for autonomy..... [/quote]
Doesn't make their methods any less retarded. I think their methods to freedom was discussed in another thread already. So I'll just say that I disagree with your opinion and stick with my own from that thread. [/quote]
Here's the issue: I don't see anything wrong with the mages refusing to accept being ruled over by the Andrastian Chantry or the Order of Templars. I don't see why you continue to vilify mages when the templars are the ones who are actively trying to kill them, which means the mages are fighting in self-defense against their would-be murderers. Simply because the Chantry and the templars think they have divine right over mages doesn't make it so, and their emancipation from the Chantry was simply that: a decision to live their lives free of a regime that had absolute authority over mages, to the point that multiple characters and authors condemned the institution as slavery.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
However, that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore scenarios where mages simply don't make any sense. Decimus shouldn't have thought Hawke and his moiety crew were templars, especially with Merrill among his company. Tahrone looked like a crack addict and sounded like a raving lunatic, making it unrealistic that anyone would follow her. Grace made no sense when she wanted to exact revenge on Hawke for helping her, to the point of killing templars to protect her and her fellow Starkhaven mages. [/quote]
Why would Decimus believe you when he knew the exits were guarded by Templars thus a Templar let you in. I doubt he thought Hawke was a Templar but seriously, you got a free pass to come in that cave by a Templar who was tracking them down. It makes sense that he would shoot first and ask questions later. And why would be trust you cause you got Merrill? He doesn't know her and for all he knows she could be hired help.
Grace was a nagging whiner who blames Hawke for her getting caught again which only shows how dumb and sheltered she is and she doesn't kill her Starkhaven mages, they were in the back helping her out. Is it odd for mages like Quentin to exist? the imperium is full of dudes like him. And I don't recall actually having to do a spell to learn how it works so Orsino knowing that blood magic spell makes sense. You got to learn it to do it! [/quote]
That misses the point about why Decimus attacks Hawke and his moiety crew: he thinks they are templars. Why would Decimus think that Merrill is a templar? Or Varric, Isabela, Anders, Fenris, or an apostate Hawke? We already know what templars look like. None of Hawke's companions fit the description, especially the non-human ones. I point out Merrill in particular because the templars hunt down the Dalish clans, which is why they are nomadic in the first place (as she points out to Hawke).
Furthermore, Grace is another example of a mage who simply doesn't make sense. Why would she attack Hawke if he helped her and the other Starkhaven mages? It's so stupid. It's railroading the plot so that everyone comes to the same conclusion, even though the pieces don't fit. If my protagonist is pro-mage, I shouldn't have Thrask or Grace as enemies who think I oppose them; it's as simple as that. It's bad writing otherwise.
As for Quentin, what was the point? He's insane, right out of a soap opera, with a deceased wife that just happens to look like Leandra. It's implied he's from the Circle of Starkhaven from Gascard's note, which makes it all the more strange that Orsino even knew him (not to mention the research seemed utterly pointless, but that's another discussion for another time - I can only handle so many stupid plot points at once). Quentin killed Leandra because he was a lunatic - not really much of a point there, aside from making me question why Hawke didn't bring up a serial killer killing women in the city to his mother.
It's like the developers wanted to have storylines that cautioned about dangerous mages, but they did it in the most ridiculous way as to completely miss the point of the dichotomy between mages and templars. If you fill the narrative with lunatics, there simply isn't a point. It becomes an entirely different story about people with mental instability instead. Insane and stupid mages don't prove anything. Connor was a better example of the dangers that magic pose, but that bleeds over into the fact that even pro-mages think mages should be properly trained in the use of their abilities; simply not by an anti-mage religious order that wants to control every mage in the Andrastian kingdom.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Meredith was murdering civilians with her death squad in broad daylight, [/quote]
Please post a vid to that cause I am missing some major content in my game then. not being sarcastic here, I really never saw that and you mention it more than once so I want to know where it occurs. Are there npcs talking about it or something? Cause poo on the devs for only having something like that talked about but never shown. [/quote]
Hawke saves a defenseless woman who is about to be killed by Meredith's death squad because she fed her tortured mage cousin in the pro-mage run (specifically, the Act III quest "A Noble Agenda"). That's actually what they are referred to as in the quest log: "Head to Lowtown near Gamlen's house, and defeat Meredith's death squad." You can easily look up the quest on that site with videos by the title of the quest.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Divine and the Seekers of Truth did nothing about this for years. Even Leliana was willing to blame a small faction we only encounter once, instead of the despot who was causing unrest among the different groups living in Kirkwall. [/quote]
Those mages have been trying to seize power long before Meredith became Viscount and yes Leliana should focus on the people who eavesdrop on secret government meetings, sneak into the Viscount throne room at night, and try to assassinate officals. To say they should not focus on them is to say that no one should have focused on John Wilkes Booth and his co-conspirators. [/quote]
The Resolutionists only appear once. If they are such a concern, why does no one else mention them as a threat? Why do we never see them again?
And we already have someone who seized power: Meredith. Why doesn't the Divine do something about this? Or does she simply not care? And why is Leliana unable to figure out that perhaps the Knight-Commander turned dictator is causing unrest in the city?
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Those nobles exist in your world; they simply don't approach you because you support a despot. Just like the templars exist in the world of my pro-mage apostate Hawke. [/quote]
Oh I love it how you claim certain nobles exist in my gameplay world yet don't want to proclaim that there must also be nobles who agree with Meredith in yours. Instead you'll just say that Templars exist in your game world because only Templars agree with Meredith and everyone in your game world is 100% on your side and that can never happen in a game world you don't agree with. :innocent: [/quote]
Actually, there is a noble who sides with Meredith in my playthrough: Edgert the Hound. He betrays Ser Marlein and the other nobles who want to overthrow Meredith's dictatorship.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No one is inventing the issues they have with Meredith's dictatorship. [/quote]
Oh please show me Meredith's n*zi death camp gas chambers. [/quote]
I never said that, but Meredith's act of genocide against hundreds of innocent people would certainly lead to an enormous amount of dead bodies.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
"I let word slip that an agent of the Divine was coming to investigate the mage troubles". - Sister Nightingale
You were saying something about a secret meeting...?[/quote]
It's still a secret meeting taking place in a locked room that they weren't invited to and I don't believe the invite said "Bring your intent to kill" on it.
I guess if you overheard a complete stranger arrange a club meeting you'll automatically assume that the secret is out and you were invited. [/quote]
No more snarky remarks about how Leliana lured no one to the "secret meeting", eh?
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You pretty much ignore every point I make in explaining why I think Cullen is hardly any better than Meredith. Your point also handwaves the fact that Cullen stood by while hundreds of men, women, and children were being killed because Meredith condemned them for the actions of one man. I guess you could argue that he was just "following orders". [/quote]
I didn't ignore your point. I disagreed with you and stated why I feel Cullen is a better alternative than her. Cullen was there for the RoA and yes following orders but he alone spoke out against her and stated that the RoA is only for Circles that cannot be saved. He understands why the RoA exist and even though he hates mages he proved that he still would not abuse such power. He uncovered a mage plot to plant demons in Templars, he addressed concerns about Meredith to Hawke. I always headcanon my Viscount Hawke giving him Meredith's position. You don't have to agree with that as you're not playing my game. [/quote]
I suppose so, because I don't think he's much better than Meredith. Cullen is a templar who thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people and views them as weapons, supports the Tranquil Solution, and is willing to let hundreds of men, women, and children get killed even though they are innocent of Anders' actions. He's only willing to stop Meredith when she threatens Hawke specifically. If he appears in the next game, I would hope he isn't a mandatory companion.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Racist? That must explain Merrill being in a romance with my human Hawke, [/quote]
Racists bang people outside their race too. And yes her comments about calling Fenyrial a half breed and wondering why Marethari would even help him is racist. In the rival path, if you keep her stupid little tool from her she will let you know just what she thinks of human Hawke. Merrill didn't care at all about me shoving a knife in Ander's back, Varric is a dwarf not a human, and Isabela gets along with everyone. [/quote]
You're ignoring the fact that Merrill loves Hawke, and she enters into a romantic relationship with him, even though their children will be human (if Hawke is male). She gives Friendship points if you help Feynriel go to the Dalish, and if you refuse to make him tranquil when you speak with Marethari. She simply cautions Feynriel that his humanity would mark him among the people, not his magical ability - if he goes to the Sabrae clan.
She's also willing to protect the mages of Kirkwall - human and elven alike - when Meredith wants to commit genocide.
And if Hawke keeps the tool from Merrill, he's preventing her from research that could benefit her people - all the while being ignorant about the Eluvians and the plight of the People as a human who knows next to nothing about elves.
Also, Merrill advocates not killing Anders. And you're ignoring my points because they disprove yours.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
...not to mention she also doesn't want Fenris enslaved, despite the fact that he has also treated her monstrously for several years. [/quote]
Fenris is an Elf so how does that prove she isn't racist? [/quote]
Fenris isn't Dalish.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You seem to continue making comments that are easily disproven by the actual game. You might want to avoid that if you respond to this message. Just a suggestion. [/quote]
LOL!!!
you are surely the one to talk. Perhaps you need to play more than just a mage Hawke who loves mages and romances Merrill. [/quote]Considering how much you've gotten wrong (like Leliana revealing that she let word slip about the meeting), that's not really much of a retort. Especially since you basically imagined some statement from me that there aren't any nobles who oppose overthrowing Meredith, when such a comment doesn't exist in reality.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. It can't harm anyone, unless it is released. You do realize this is pointed out in the short story as well, right? And I'm not sure how Marethari protected Merrill when she released Audacity, became an abomination, and tried to kill her. [/quote]
There is no such thing as a harmless and safe demon, even one that is trapped, period. If Merrill was so sure of that she wouldn't have asked Hawke to come and put her down if something went wrong. Why is Merrill afriad for...according to you...no reason at all? [/quote]
Except Audacity can't harm anyone as long as it is trapped. All it can do is communicate. And Merrill suspects that Audacity is free in Act III, which is why she asks Hawke to accompany her. Audacity can only freed by a powerful spell. It turns out that her suspicions are correct, because Marethari freed Audacity from its prison.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think the mages are stupid simply because they chose a life of freedom over one of servitude.... [/quote]
And the point flies right over head. Mages are not stupid for wanting freedom, sweetheart. They are stupid because they chose a dumb way to get it. [/quote]
Democracy?
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I killed Qunari who threatened everyone. Elves, humans, dwarves. It doesn't matter that some of those Qunari were also elves. [/quote]
Good. And I kill Mages and Qunari who threaten everyone. Regardless of their reasons for why they are doing what they are doing. [/quote]
Men, women, and children who simply want to flee Kirkwall weren't threatening everyone.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it doesn't make any sense. I already explained how the situations are completely different. [/quote]
And I disagree with you. The city guards were coming for those elves and demanded they be handed over, most likely to not recieve a fair trial if one at all and probably face imprisonment or execution. The Arishok protected them and had enough of the crap that was Kirkwall and demanded that things be the way he wants them to be. The mages were facing execution and fought to protect themselves and now their leader's actions will cause a war and why? Because they had enough of the crap that is the chantry and are now demanding that things be the way they want it to be. Yep sounds about similar to me with slight differences here and there. [/quote]
You can't dispute facts. The scenarios simply aren't the same. The hundreds of men, women, and children who Meredith wanted to kill were fleeing Kirkwall because the templars were trying to kill them for something they didn't do, while the Qunari elves wanted to help the Qunari rule over everyone - the elves of the Alienage included.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You realize the Alienage elves would have suffered under the Qunari as well, right? The horror stories about the people who refused to convert to the Qun? That's what makes your argument so absurd. [/quote]
Those elves that joined the Qun seemed to have no problem being where they are. If the others made a mistake etc oh well. I never once argued that the Qun was wonderful. But about how those city elves joined to help take down Kirkwall because of the rampant abuses they were suffering within the alienages and how you don't care cause they aren't mages. [/quote]
You realize they work people to death who don't follow the Qun, right? In mines and construction camps.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
While Meredith's templars are killing hundreds of men, women, and children because that is precisely what she ordered. You saved three mages who will likely be made tranquil. [/quote]
My Hawke is Viscount with Cullen as Knight Captain. So no those mages won't be made Tranquil. Don't try and play headcanon on my game. Just stick to imagining all the mages Varric claims were saved during your promage playthrough but were never actually shown.
[/quote]Actually, according to the developer, those mages will likely be made tranquil - that's what usually happens to mages who are spared during the Right of Annulment. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.
[quote]Hazegurl wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
They were following orders by murdering an entire population of innocent people. [/quote]
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure the fact that Meredith asks you to commit genocide against innocent people is something you care nothing about.
#229
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 04:14
Sir JK
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Except Audacity can't harm anyone as long as it is trapped. All it can do is communicate. And Merrill suspects that Audacity is free in Act III, which is why she asks Hawke to accompany her. Audacity can only freed by a powerful spell. It turns out that her suspicions are correct, because Marethari freed Audacity from its prison.
Wait... Marethari does not free Audacity until after you and Merrill heads there to investigate. She does not know what Merrill intends until you and Merril talk to her and she specifically asks a Hawke that has rivalled Merril to stall for time (so she can get up before you and Merill does).
Audacity manipulates both Merrill and Marethari, sure. But Marethari did not free Audacity before you and Merrill returned to Sundermount. It was not him being freed that made him stop sending messages, it was him intentionally doing so to elevate his trap to the next level.
It's also at this stage Merrill reveals (maybe just to rival Hawke?) that what she uses Audacity for is instructions on how to repair the eluvian and that she needs him for this. He's the one telling her what to do... and the reason she knows something is up is that he suddenly stopped.
#230
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 04:18
LobselVith8
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Sir JK wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Except Audacity can't harm anyone as long as it is trapped. All it can do is communicate. And Merrill suspects that Audacity is free in Act III, which is why she asks Hawke to accompany her. Audacity can only freed by a powerful spell. It turns out that her suspicions are correct, because Marethari freed Audacity from its prison.
Wait... Marethari does not free Audacity until after you and Merrill heads there to investigate. She does not know what Merrill intends until you and Merril talk to her and she specifically asks a Hawke that has rivalled Merril to stall for time (so she can get up before you and Merill does).
Hawke and Merrill don't need to speak to Marethari to move the story of "A New Path" forward. It's not mandatory to speak with her. Hawke and Merrill can head towards the totem without speaking to Marethari at all. It's optional to speak with the Keeper. And Marethari couldn't have possibly gotten there first, because the direct way to enter the cave is blocked because of the avalanche that Merrill mentions in Act I.
If your suggestion was accurate, then Marethari wouldn't head up there at all unless Hawke specifically spoke with her. And since the dialogue with the Keeper is optional, that's not always the case.
Sir JK wrote...
Audacity manipulates both Merrill and Marethari, sure. But Marethari did not free Audacity before you and Merrill returned to Sundermount. It was not him being freed that made him stop sending messages, it was him intentionally doing so to elevate his trap to the next level.
The problem I have with this line of thought is that Merrill doesn't release Audacity. Merrill even explicitly notes she won't release Audacity from its prison to an aggressive Hawke. She isn't even using Audacity to construct the new Eluvian because she's performed her own research into the matter of constructing the Eluvian, which is when she runs into the roadblock of the Eluvian being inert, and why she considers speaking to Audacity again. However, releasing Audacity isn't an option for her. That's not the plan. Audacity manipulates Marethari by making her think that the restored Eluvian could be used to allow it to escape its prison, which leads Marethari to releasing the spirit and imprisoning it inside herself, which leads to her becoming an abomination and trying to kill Merrill.
Sir JK wrote...
It's also at this stage Merrill reveals (maybe just to rival Hawke?) that what she uses Audacity for is instructions on how to repair the eluvian and that she needs him for this. He's the one telling her what to do... and the reason she knows something is up is that he suddenly stopped.
Actually, David Gaider said that Merrill was constructing the Eluvian based on her study of the lore and her extrapolating information from the shard:
David Gaider wrote...
TheBlackBaron wrote...
Gotcha. So she basically recreates the rest of the eluvian she has in her house during Act II-III from the shard she takes via magic or whatever, I assume?
She just has the one shard. She incorporates it into the mirror she builds, extrapolating its construction both from the shard itself and what lore she's been able to collect. Probably why she wasn't able to get it to work.
This would indicate that Merrill was builting the Eluvian based on her own research, instead of relying on Audacity. However, she did turn to Audacity to learn blood magic (prior to Act I) because she lacked the necessary lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic, as she explains in Act II (after she completes the task to get the elven artifact, the Arulin'Holm).
In Act III, Merrill sought out Audacity because, as a spirit, Audacity would have been alive when the Eluvian was built in the ancient kingdom of Arlathan by her ancestors, so she believes it may hold the answer as to why the Eluvian remains inert.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 mai 2013 - 04:52 .
#231
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:35
In Exile
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[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Isabela was beaten and tortured by a Qunari for refusing to submit to their demands, so that's a big fat lie. [/quote]
There's no parallel. Isabella was a criminal by their standards, and moreover, I've never denied that their forceful conversion is just that.
[quote]Maybe Qunari don't beat other Qunari, but what does that prove? That they favour their own? So what? Bullies don't beat up their lackeys, but that doesn't make them good people in any respect. [/quote]
This is ridiculous. There's absolutely no evidence that Qunari beat other Qunari, and what it proves is that the Elves, by joining the Qun, would no longer get beaten at the whim of others.
That's the point. Of course it doesn't make them good people - but only that straw figure you built up to argue against actually said that they were good people. I certainly didn't.
[quote]Unless you count their forced breeding programs. [/quote]
Which you shouldn't, because we have absolutely no evidence that any of the qunari see that as any kind of violation of their personal and physical integrity.
And even if we do count their breeding program as - to some extent - constituting a serious breach of personal integrity, there's still no evidence it's anywhere near the scale of what, for example, the elves do endure in the Alienages.
[quote]Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, I'm sure that all poverty and disease just cease to be problems when you join the Qun.[/quote]Oh, we're doing the thing where you're completely intellectual bankrupt again and arguing with strawmen. For the elves to be better off, poverty and disease don't have to be eradicated. There just has to be significantly less of it when compared with the Alienage.
In terms of disease, the Qunari are the most advanced nation on Thedas in terms of medical knowledge, and there's every indication that they don't discriminate based on class given access to resources, per what Sten says re: Seheron. So in terms of actual access to medicine, what the elves receive in the Qun is far greater than otherwise.
[quote]It engages in all those things towards people who don't join its super-special secret club. [/quote]
But that doesn't matter to people who are its members, which is what we're talking about the CEs becoming.
[quote]Judging a club on the preferential treatment it gives its own members does not give you a proper overview of whether or not it is a good organisation. [/quote]
Whether or not the Qun is a good organization is irrelevant in terms of whether or not the CEs are better off being part of it. Which is the argument we're actually having.
[quote]Who needs police when even the most minor of offenses will see you mindraped and placed in forced labour?[/quote]
Other than in your head, there's absolutely no evidence of this.
[quote]No. The Qun inflicts an entirely different kind of horror and torment on its adherents, but that doesn't make it better.[/quote]There's no "horror" and "tortment" facing the CEs.
[quote]It's a worse deal for everybody.[/quote]Too bad you've completely failed to prove this.
[quote]As I saw pretty clearly in Kirkwall, plenty of elves didn't want to join and in fact tried to actively resist the conversion of their brethren.[/quote]So? That doesn't prove anything other than some elves don't want to convert.
[quote].I said they deserve anything bad that happens to them. I did not say "I will murder every mage who doesn't enlist, and laugh while doing it". I simply won't protect them when the Templars come calling. If you won't fight for the group, then you don't deserve the benefits of being a member. I have no patience whatsoever for individuals within a disenfranchised minority who would bargain with their oppressors and sell their community up the river in order to make selfish gains for their own personal security.[/quote]That's exactly what I said you said, so I have no idea what you're on about.
[quote]But what I think those individuals deserve is irrelevent, and has nothing to do with the honesty of my statement. Prove that the mages are killing individuals who refuse to fight, if you're going to accuse me of being dishonest, because that was the claim, and what I believe cowardly traitors deserve has no relevance to the actual reality of what the mages are doing.[/quote]
Leaving them to die at the hands of the templars isn't different from swinging the ax yourself. That's why the Circle is such an abusive terror - because most of what the mages are being subjected to isn't direct abuse. The Ferelden Circle didn't involve daily beatings, but the terror and oppression were very real.
Isabela was beaten and tortured by a Qunari for refusing to submit to their demands, so that's a big fat lie. [/quote]
There's no parallel. Isabella was a criminal by their standards, and moreover, I've never denied that their forceful conversion is just that.
[quote]Maybe Qunari don't beat other Qunari, but what does that prove? That they favour their own? So what? Bullies don't beat up their lackeys, but that doesn't make them good people in any respect. [/quote]
This is ridiculous. There's absolutely no evidence that Qunari beat other Qunari, and what it proves is that the Elves, by joining the Qun, would no longer get beaten at the whim of others.
That's the point. Of course it doesn't make them good people - but only that straw figure you built up to argue against actually said that they were good people. I certainly didn't.
[quote]Unless you count their forced breeding programs. [/quote]
Which you shouldn't, because we have absolutely no evidence that any of the qunari see that as any kind of violation of their personal and physical integrity.
And even if we do count their breeding program as - to some extent - constituting a serious breach of personal integrity, there's still no evidence it's anywhere near the scale of what, for example, the elves do endure in the Alienages.
[quote]Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, I'm sure that all poverty and disease just cease to be problems when you join the Qun.[/quote]Oh, we're doing the thing where you're completely intellectual bankrupt again and arguing with strawmen. For the elves to be better off, poverty and disease don't have to be eradicated. There just has to be significantly less of it when compared with the Alienage.
In terms of disease, the Qunari are the most advanced nation on Thedas in terms of medical knowledge, and there's every indication that they don't discriminate based on class given access to resources, per what Sten says re: Seheron. So in terms of actual access to medicine, what the elves receive in the Qun is far greater than otherwise.
[quote]It engages in all those things towards people who don't join its super-special secret club. [/quote]
But that doesn't matter to people who are its members, which is what we're talking about the CEs becoming.
[quote]Judging a club on the preferential treatment it gives its own members does not give you a proper overview of whether or not it is a good organisation. [/quote]
Whether or not the Qun is a good organization is irrelevant in terms of whether or not the CEs are better off being part of it. Which is the argument we're actually having.
[quote]Who needs police when even the most minor of offenses will see you mindraped and placed in forced labour?[/quote]
Other than in your head, there's absolutely no evidence of this.
[quote]No. The Qun inflicts an entirely different kind of horror and torment on its adherents, but that doesn't make it better.[/quote]There's no "horror" and "tortment" facing the CEs.
[quote]It's a worse deal for everybody.[/quote]Too bad you've completely failed to prove this.
[quote]As I saw pretty clearly in Kirkwall, plenty of elves didn't want to join and in fact tried to actively resist the conversion of their brethren.[/quote]So? That doesn't prove anything other than some elves don't want to convert.
[quote].I said they deserve anything bad that happens to them. I did not say "I will murder every mage who doesn't enlist, and laugh while doing it". I simply won't protect them when the Templars come calling. If you won't fight for the group, then you don't deserve the benefits of being a member. I have no patience whatsoever for individuals within a disenfranchised minority who would bargain with their oppressors and sell their community up the river in order to make selfish gains for their own personal security.[/quote]That's exactly what I said you said, so I have no idea what you're on about.
[quote]But what I think those individuals deserve is irrelevent, and has nothing to do with the honesty of my statement. Prove that the mages are killing individuals who refuse to fight, if you're going to accuse me of being dishonest, because that was the claim, and what I believe cowardly traitors deserve has no relevance to the actual reality of what the mages are doing.[/quote]
Leaving them to die at the hands of the templars isn't different from swinging the ax yourself. That's why the Circle is such an abusive terror - because most of what the mages are being subjected to isn't direct abuse. The Ferelden Circle didn't involve daily beatings, but the terror and oppression were very real.
Modifié par In Exile, 05 mai 2013 - 05:51 .
#232
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:39
Sir JK
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke and Merrill don't need to speak to Marethari to move the story of "A New Path" forward. It's not mandatory to speak with her. Hawke and Merrill can head towards the totem without speaking to Marethari at all. It's optional to speak with the Keeper.
If your suggestion was accurate, then Marethari wouldn't head up there at all unless Hawke specifically spoke with her. And since the dialogue with the Keeper is optional, that's not always the case.
Fair enough, but you got to admit that if Marethari had already released Audacity then she/it going up to face us at Pride's end is pretty damn stupid of it. It should be going in the other direction. Far more likely we'd arrive to a destroyed camp than find her waiting for us and then meet her up the mount.
But I hope you agree that we cannot assume the setting/narrative alters whether or not we say anything to Marethari before going up. So regardless of whether we say anything or not she's there on site and is in enough control of herself to make her confession before losing control. Which suggest the possession is very recent.
The simplest explanation is that she spots Hawke and Merrill going up if you don't talk to her.
And Marethari couldn't have possibly gotten there first, because the
direct way to enter the cave is blocked because of the avalanche that
Merrill mentions in Act I.
I singled this out to address it specifically.
You're saying that the mage that has lived in the shadow of the mountain for seven years and belongs to a magical tradition that among other things allows control over nature and has spells allowing them to burrow through the earth itself couldnt get to the top before you did?
The problem I have with this line of thought is that Merrill doesn't release Audacity. Merrill even explicitly notes she won't release Audacity from its prison to an aggressive Hawke. She isn't even using Audacity to construct the new Eluvian because she's performed her own research into the matter of constructing the Eluvian. Releasing Audacity isn't an option for her. That's not the plan. Audacity manipulates Marethari by making her think that the restored Eluvian could be used to allow it to escape its prison, which leads Marethari to releasing the spirit and imprisoning it inside herself, which leads to her becoming an abomination and trying to kill Merrill.
Merrill does not intend to release Audacity no. Merril consider herself too smart to fall for that. Moreover, she firmly believes the magic of the ancient elves does not provide the demon with any loopholes it can exploit. She's fully convinced Audacity will try then and there and that's why she bings her friends to kill her if she cannot stop Audacity from trying.
This is exactly what Audacity counts on.
But as you say, he's also manipulating Marethari (or perhaps more correctly, letting Merril unintentionally do so).
I doubt Audacity cares much whether he's released by Marethari or escapes through a fake Eluvian into Merrill. And I don't hold it above Pride demons to come up with such complex schemes.
Yes, Marathari took the bait. But that's not the same as saying that Merrill was not being lured into the trap.
You know what they say... the best way to manipulate someone is to tell the truth
This would indicate that Merrill was builting the Eluvian based on her own research, instead of relying on Audacity. However, she did turn to Audacity to learn blood magic (prior to Act I) because she lacked the necessary lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic, as she explains in Act II (after she completes the task to get the elven artifact, the Arulin'Holm).
In Act III, Merrill sought out Audacity because, as a spirit, Audacity would have been alive when the Eluvian was built in the ancient kingdom of Arlathan by her ancestors, so she believes it may hold the answer as to why the Eluvian remains inert.
Oh, I did not mean that she relied on it exclusively. I'm sure she used plenty of her own research. For instance, I'm fairly convinced the Arulin'holm is her own idea.
But Audacity did tell her how to cleanse it. He did teach her blood magic. And I'm sure Merrill did mention she has talked to him about it at other times as well (I have a playthrough coming up soon so I'll see if I can verify that).
Awfully charitable of it to do so without a hefty price.
So the fundamental question remains: What makes you think Audacity would help Merrill to make a perfectly normal Eluvian?
#233
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:40
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Plaintiff wrote...
Because both groups being members of the same species would totally trump the fact that they adhere to totally different religions that fundamentally oppose each other, just like in real li-oh wait.
I'm not the one that thinks the Dalish are somehow special for being elven, or otherwise deserve any kind of unique treatment as being elves.
Now ask yourself what the moral content of that sacrifice is.Congratulations. You just discovered how every single war in the history of ever has ever worked.
Even if you believe that, it doesn't mean anything. Meredith and the templars certainly see this war as being about the most just possible causes - protecting the innocent, preventing tyranny, etc. They're just wrong about it.Unless you believe that the right to declare war is contingent on what the war is about.
Like I said: it comes down to what you believe the moral worth of the cause is.
I don't. But respecting democracy means accepting that you're still of the view that people's autonomy has to be subverted for the greater social good.Why do you hate democaracy, In Exile?
Modifié par In Exile, 05 mai 2013 - 05:52 .
#234
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:42
In Exile
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Silfren wrote...
Should the mages in favor of independence have been morally obligated to wait until they had a literal unanimous vote in favor of separation?
No.
This would almost certainly have prevented them from ever having the option to break free. Sure, the minority who didn't want to separate got screwed, but the majority rule in this case seems a deal fairer than expecting that mages who wanted freedom had to wait till they had 100% support from every other voting individual.
The point is acknowledging that, and more generally, admiting that the idea that we recognize that to some extent general social causes require subverting individual ends. It's the same with the qunari-supporting elves.
#235
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:45
In Exile
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Xilizhra wrote...
Because your question sounded like some kind of trap and I went into a defensive mode.
There was no trap. I do think that you don't actually value elves - just the Dalish - but that's an entirely separate point.
But we're not, for the who-knows-what-time, talking about Anders. We're talking about your view.Anders is not the mage rebellion.
Inasmuch as it's right for anyone to declare a war for any reason ever, yes. Because it's about more than a cause, it's about building a better tomorrow for mages both present and future.
Everyone thinks they're fighting for a better tomorrow. This kind of subjective nonsense can be used to justify anything.
I've not sided with Petrice, I haven't killed any qunari until they tried to kill me. That's the only reason I'm justifying killing the elves. As for why I'm fighting them, I'd have no problems at all with them joining the Qun... if the Qun wasn't a gigantic mass-murdering war machine that hideously tortures mages, among other things.
So what you're saying is that you've actually got a serious problem with the joining the Qun, prima facie, and a big part of it seems to be that they're (i) expansionist; and (ii) hate mages.
Edit: Again, I don't like the qunari either, despite what I've been arguing in this thread. I just happen to think it's better than you're honest about disliking it and not having qualms about kiling the elves because of the cause you believe in, than pretending otherwise.
Modifié par In Exile, 05 mai 2013 - 05:54 .
#236
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:47
BouncyFrag
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So what exactly would have Merrill gained for the Dalish by restoring the mirror? That always seemed a bit vague to me.
Modifié par BouncyFrag, 05 mai 2013 - 05:48 .
#237
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:48
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Plaintiff wrote...
Haven't you heard, Silfren? If you just sit in a corner and don't bother anybody, equal rights will just be given to you.
Eventually.
Maybe.
If we feel like it.
That's cute. Now point out where I said or implied this, other than in whatever straw figure exists in your head.
#238
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:48
LobselVith8
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Hazegurl wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
By this logic, are we also saying that Wynne is naive and retarded?
If Wynne were dabbling with demons and making deals with them then yes she is.
Merrill didn't make a deal with any demon; she only spoke to one who was already sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem to learn blood magic because she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to successfully cleanse the shard (which is why she isn't a ghoul like the elves in Witch Hunt who encountered the remaining shards of the Eluvian).
#239
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 05:55
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BouncyFrag wrote...
So what exactly would have Merrill gained for the Dalish by restoring the mirror? That always seemed a bit vague to me.
She says its their history and lore. Preserving old elven history is what she believes is paramount to protect her people.
#240
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:00
BouncyFrag
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Thats it? I thought there would be something more concrete to warrant all the risks she took on.In Exile wrote...
BouncyFrag wrote...
So what exactly would have Merrill gained for the Dalish by restoring the mirror? That always seemed a bit vague to me.
She says its their history and lore. Preserving old elven history is what she believes is paramount to protect her people.
#241
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:01
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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There's the communication and travel ability. The latter, in fact, is something human mages don't think is a thing.
#242
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:04
Hazegurl
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[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
That misses the point about why Decimus attacks Hawke and his moiety crew: he thinks they are templars. Why would Decimus think that Merrill is a templar? Or Varric, Isabela, Anders, Fenris, or an apostate Hawke? [/quote]
Decimus does not think you are a Templar. He thinks you are with them or either working for them. So yeah, "The Templars are here." or whatever he says makes perfect sense. Think about it.
They are trapped inside a cave and the only way inside has a Templar guarding the passage who is waiting on reenforcements. A group of people have entered the cave and taken down all their magical defenses and killed their protectors. What on earth do you think Decimus will think? Is he supposed to say. "Oh welcome stranger who I know came here because the Templars informed you of my location and gave you a free pass to enter. I totally trust you no questions asked because you have an elf mage with you that I know jack squat about. Come have some cake and pie?"
As for Quentin, so what? Mages like him exist. Just like that cartoonish Templar Ser Alirk.
"That's right. Once you're Tranquil, you'll do anything I ask."
[quote]Hawke saves a defenseless woman who is about to be killed by Meredith's death squad because she fed her tortured mage cousin in the pro-mage run (specifically, the Act III quest "A Noble Agenda"). .....[/quote]
Ah I see, Oh well, these death squads didn't exist in any of my games. As for your game, you encountered one quest with it. By the way you spoke you had me thinking they were all over the city or something. That actually would have been very interesting as Kirkwall was dull all around. Anyway, I don't agree with that, just like I don't agree with Meredith ruling Kirkwall or calling an RoA....but I'm not killing Templars in the streets just to allow some blood mages to escape into the public. So yeah, and I still got to kill Meredith like I wanted to in the end.
[quote]The Resolutionists only appear once. If they are such a concern, why does no one else mention them as a threat? Why do we never see them again?[/quote]
The same argument can be said of your death squad and if they were so important then why not come to a neutral Hawke, if they truly needed Hawke's help? I guess the death squad and the resolutionists aren't that important in the end.
[quote]]And we already have someone who seized power: Meredith. Why doesn't the Divine do something about this?[/quote]
How do you know they weren't? Anders's irrational actions pretty much leave us all speculating about what could have been.
[quote]No more snarky remarks about how Leliana lured no one to the "secret meeting", eh?[/quote]
And here I am thinking that I just gave you one.
Here's another: Following someone home doesn't mean you were lured by them. It just makes you a stalker.
[quote]I suppose so, because I don't think he's much better than Meredith. Cullen is a templar who thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people and views them as weapons, supports the Tranquil Solution, and is willing to let hundreds of men, women, and children get killed even though they are innocent of Anders' actions. He's only willing to stop Meredith when she threatens Hawke specifically. If he appears in the next game, I would hope he isn't a mandatory companion.[/quote]
So bascially you would only support a Templar who, number one doesn't do his/her job and number two, because they have opinions that are the same as yours.
Templars make mages Tranquil when needed. Cullen should support making mages Tranquil. Mages are weapons, if they aren't then why would Duncan ask for them for Calin's army? And whocares if he doesn't think they are human? If it doesn't interfere with him doing his job fairly then what does it matter? I may not care much for John McCain, but I wouldn't fault him for being racists toward Vietnamese after what he went through.(Please no political debates, just using the dude as an ex)
And I can't fault him for refusing to fall on his sword for the sake of mages and thus chose to follow orders even if he disagreed with them, especially since I sided with the Templars too even though I didn't agree with Meredith. And although this may not exist in your playthrough, in mine Cullen speaks up against Meredith before she threatens Hawke. And it's Cullen who supports Hawke in saving those mages who ask for help.
So yeah that's my Knight-Commander
[quote]Also, Merrill advocates not killing Anders. And you're ignoring my points because they disprove yours.[/quote]
None of that doesn't make her racist or I guess I should say she has that Dalish superiority complex that makes her come across as racist. And I haven't ignored your posts, you say the same thing all the time. So I prefer to snip and address all at once. As a matter of fact let me address another thing about Merrill as I see no reason to have two separate replies in one post about that girl. She is a moron who would have gotten herself possessed. She isn't as accomplished at dealing with demons as Sten and he isn't even a mage.
[quote]Considering how much you've gotten wrong (like Leliana revealing that she let word slip about the meeting), that's not really much of a retort. Especially since you basically imagined some statement from me that there aren't any nobles who oppose overthrowing Meredith, when such a comment doesn't exist in reality.[/quote]
Sigh, keep on saying I got it wrong about Leliana when all you're doing is latching onto one small part of my post "No one knows about" to proclaim my entire statement wrong. It still doesn't disprove the fact that those mages showed up to assassinate an offical of their own free will. How did they know about the meeting if they weren't fishing for the info to begin with? They were lured there because they were stalking. You are totally trying to whitewash the intent of those mages.
I never said YOU said no nobles opposed Meredith. What the heck are you even talking about? I pretty much said that in my game there are no nobles that oppose Meredith to your claim telling me that nobles oppose her in MY game. What exists in your game does not exist in mine, that is a fact.
So done with you right now, seriously.
[quote]Democracy?[/quote]
You mean the political structure based on obediance to the majority and NOT individual rights and freedom that you keep claiming mages stand for?
Please explain to me their post war goals and agendas.
Where will they live?
How will they integrate into society?
How do they plan to fund a war? food, clean water, shelter, armor, weapons (staffs).
Do they have allies?
How will they ensure the safety and well being of their elderly and children during a war
What do they plan to do with mages who disagree with their war efforts? You know the ones who wish to exercise their freedom to not go to war.
Kill them? Free them? Or force them into subjugation to the whims of the majority and their leaders?
[quote]You realize they work people to death who don't follow the Qun, right? In mines and construction camps.[/quote]
Those city elves seemed willing to follow the Qun. And yes, it is similar.
[quote]Actually, according to the developer, those mages will likely be made tranquil - that's what usually happens to mages who are spared during the Right of Annulment. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.[/quote]
Cause like you I can make up whatever I want that wasn't shown to me in game. You can imagine a boat load of mages being saved by siding with them even though you never see it and I can imagine that since my Hawke is Viscount I can decide the fate of those mages myself.
[quote]I'm pretty sure the fact that Meredith asks you to commit genocide against innocent people is something you care nothing about.[/quote]
No, I don't care about committing genocide against 3d characters in a video game. Maybe you need to figure out why you care so much.
Now I am truly off the Merry go round. I'll still post in the tread if I see something interesting but I'm done going around with you, so good luck.
That misses the point about why Decimus attacks Hawke and his moiety crew: he thinks they are templars. Why would Decimus think that Merrill is a templar? Or Varric, Isabela, Anders, Fenris, or an apostate Hawke? [/quote]
Decimus does not think you are a Templar. He thinks you are with them or either working for them. So yeah, "The Templars are here." or whatever he says makes perfect sense. Think about it.
They are trapped inside a cave and the only way inside has a Templar guarding the passage who is waiting on reenforcements. A group of people have entered the cave and taken down all their magical defenses and killed their protectors. What on earth do you think Decimus will think? Is he supposed to say. "Oh welcome stranger who I know came here because the Templars informed you of my location and gave you a free pass to enter. I totally trust you no questions asked because you have an elf mage with you that I know jack squat about. Come have some cake and pie?"
As for Quentin, so what? Mages like him exist. Just like that cartoonish Templar Ser Alirk.
"That's right. Once you're Tranquil, you'll do anything I ask."
[quote]Hawke saves a defenseless woman who is about to be killed by Meredith's death squad because she fed her tortured mage cousin in the pro-mage run (specifically, the Act III quest "A Noble Agenda"). .....[/quote]
Ah I see, Oh well, these death squads didn't exist in any of my games. As for your game, you encountered one quest with it. By the way you spoke you had me thinking they were all over the city or something. That actually would have been very interesting as Kirkwall was dull all around. Anyway, I don't agree with that, just like I don't agree with Meredith ruling Kirkwall or calling an RoA....but I'm not killing Templars in the streets just to allow some blood mages to escape into the public. So yeah, and I still got to kill Meredith like I wanted to in the end.
[quote]The Resolutionists only appear once. If they are such a concern, why does no one else mention them as a threat? Why do we never see them again?[/quote]
The same argument can be said of your death squad and if they were so important then why not come to a neutral Hawke, if they truly needed Hawke's help? I guess the death squad and the resolutionists aren't that important in the end.
[quote]]And we already have someone who seized power: Meredith. Why doesn't the Divine do something about this?[/quote]
How do you know they weren't? Anders's irrational actions pretty much leave us all speculating about what could have been.
[quote]No more snarky remarks about how Leliana lured no one to the "secret meeting", eh?[/quote]
And here I am thinking that I just gave you one.
Here's another: Following someone home doesn't mean you were lured by them. It just makes you a stalker.
[quote]I suppose so, because I don't think he's much better than Meredith. Cullen is a templar who thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people and views them as weapons, supports the Tranquil Solution, and is willing to let hundreds of men, women, and children get killed even though they are innocent of Anders' actions. He's only willing to stop Meredith when she threatens Hawke specifically. If he appears in the next game, I would hope he isn't a mandatory companion.[/quote]
So bascially you would only support a Templar who, number one doesn't do his/her job and number two, because they have opinions that are the same as yours.
Templars make mages Tranquil when needed. Cullen should support making mages Tranquil. Mages are weapons, if they aren't then why would Duncan ask for them for Calin's army? And whocares if he doesn't think they are human? If it doesn't interfere with him doing his job fairly then what does it matter? I may not care much for John McCain, but I wouldn't fault him for being racists toward Vietnamese after what he went through.(Please no political debates, just using the dude as an ex)
And I can't fault him for refusing to fall on his sword for the sake of mages and thus chose to follow orders even if he disagreed with them, especially since I sided with the Templars too even though I didn't agree with Meredith. And although this may not exist in your playthrough, in mine Cullen speaks up against Meredith before she threatens Hawke. And it's Cullen who supports Hawke in saving those mages who ask for help.
So yeah that's my Knight-Commander
[quote]Also, Merrill advocates not killing Anders. And you're ignoring my points because they disprove yours.[/quote]
None of that doesn't make her racist or I guess I should say she has that Dalish superiority complex that makes her come across as racist. And I haven't ignored your posts, you say the same thing all the time. So I prefer to snip and address all at once. As a matter of fact let me address another thing about Merrill as I see no reason to have two separate replies in one post about that girl. She is a moron who would have gotten herself possessed. She isn't as accomplished at dealing with demons as Sten and he isn't even a mage.
[quote]Considering how much you've gotten wrong (like Leliana revealing that she let word slip about the meeting), that's not really much of a retort. Especially since you basically imagined some statement from me that there aren't any nobles who oppose overthrowing Meredith, when such a comment doesn't exist in reality.[/quote]
Sigh, keep on saying I got it wrong about Leliana when all you're doing is latching onto one small part of my post "No one knows about" to proclaim my entire statement wrong. It still doesn't disprove the fact that those mages showed up to assassinate an offical of their own free will. How did they know about the meeting if they weren't fishing for the info to begin with? They were lured there because they were stalking. You are totally trying to whitewash the intent of those mages.
I never said YOU said no nobles opposed Meredith. What the heck are you even talking about? I pretty much said that in my game there are no nobles that oppose Meredith to your claim telling me that nobles oppose her in MY game. What exists in your game does not exist in mine, that is a fact.
So done with you right now, seriously.
[quote]Democracy?[/quote]
You mean the political structure based on obediance to the majority and NOT individual rights and freedom that you keep claiming mages stand for?
Please explain to me their post war goals and agendas.
Where will they live?
How will they integrate into society?
How do they plan to fund a war? food, clean water, shelter, armor, weapons (staffs).
Do they have allies?
How will they ensure the safety and well being of their elderly and children during a war
What do they plan to do with mages who disagree with their war efforts? You know the ones who wish to exercise their freedom to not go to war.
Kill them? Free them? Or force them into subjugation to the whims of the majority and their leaders?
[quote]You realize they work people to death who don't follow the Qun, right? In mines and construction camps.[/quote]
Those city elves seemed willing to follow the Qun. And yes, it is similar.
[quote]Actually, according to the developer, those mages will likely be made tranquil - that's what usually happens to mages who are spared during the Right of Annulment. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.[/quote]
Cause like you I can make up whatever I want that wasn't shown to me in game. You can imagine a boat load of mages being saved by siding with them even though you never see it and I can imagine that since my Hawke is Viscount I can decide the fate of those mages myself.
[quote]I'm pretty sure the fact that Meredith asks you to commit genocide against innocent people is something you care nothing about.[/quote]
No, I don't care about committing genocide against 3d characters in a video game. Maybe you need to figure out why you care so much.
Now I am truly off the Merry go round. I'll still post in the tread if I see something interesting but I'm done going around with you, so good luck.
#243
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:04
BouncyFrag
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But don't they already have meetings of the different clans on a regular basis?Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
There's the communication and travel ability. The latter, in fact, is something human mages don't think is a thing.
#244
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:07
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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BouncyFrag wrote...
But don't they already have meetings of the different clans on a regular basis?Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
There's the communication and travel ability. The latter, in fact, is something human mages don't think is a thing.
Once a decade, IIRC.
#245
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:16
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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Plaintiff wrote...
How very nice for you. Maybe you can enact it in a fanfiction about an alternate Thedas where the Templars are not overzealous, uncompromising bigots.Youth4Ever wrote...
Some of us actually have an alternative plan for the Magi worth considering before resulting to open war.Plaintiff wrote...
Haven't you heard, Silfren? If you just sit in a corner and don't bother anybody, equal rights will just be given to you. Eventually. Maybe. If we feel like it.
Greagoir wasn't so bad, at least in the games. He might be able to see reason. Alrik and Meredith were insane, but they're no longer a problem. Still, I think both sides will have to clean house with regards to the radicals if the reasonable people on both sides want compromise.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 mai 2013 - 06:16 .
#246
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 06:18
BouncyFrag
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Okay. After the Witch Hunt dlc for DA:O I was pretty hyped about Merrills quest but ended up disappointed with how little we actually find out. Maybe in future games we'll get something more. DA2 was rushed so maybe theres some things they had to leave for further instalments of the series.Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
BouncyFrag wrote...
But don't they already have meetings of the different clans on a regular basis?Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
There's the communication and travel ability. The latter, in fact, is something human mages don't think is a thing.
Once a decade, IIRC.
Modifié par BouncyFrag, 05 mai 2013 - 06:18 .
#247
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 07:14
Guest_Faerunner_*
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In Exile wrote...
Everyone thinks they're fighting for a better tomorrow. This kind of subjective nonsense can be used to justify anything.
The difference between the elven converters and the mage rebels is that the mages are trying to escape their tower prisons and only attack when their oppressors try to stop them. Yes, their rebellion creates an unfortunate ripple affect for Circle-lovers; but then every unwilling mage captured, imprisoned, tranquilized and killed by the templars that the pro-Chantry mages support are also part of a rippled effect. Why should the majority of mages roll over and allow themselves to be imprisoned, dehumanized and killed just because some of their brethren like being kept in stone prisons? If they really miss the Chantry, they can turn themselves in. Mages under the Chantry don't have the opion to say "Nope, I'm done with this" without having to endure an attack and fight to defend themselves.
Meanwhile, the elves were well within their rights to convert to the Qun if they wanted. However, the converters took it a step further by helping the Qunari forcefully conquer and convert people who didn't want it, and trying to kill anyone who resisted. How is that any better than the Chantry conquering the Dales and converting their ancestors?
There is a difference between someone trying live their own lives and only fight when someone tries to attack them for it first, and someone trying to force their lifestyle on someone else and attack when they try to resist.
Modifié par Faerunner, 05 mai 2013 - 07:53 .
#248
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 07:43
Silfren
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Hazegurl wrote...]
Templars make mages Tranquil when needed. Cullen should support making mages Tranquil. Mages are weapons, if they aren't then why would Duncan ask for them for Calin's army? And whocares if he doesn't think they are human? If it doesn't interfere with him doing his job fairly then what does it matter? I may not care much for John McCain, but I wouldn't fault him for being racists toward Vietnamese after what he went through.(Please no political debates, just using the dude as an ex)
That is a pathetically stupid idea. Not thinking mages are human DOES prevent him from fairly doing his job. If part of your job involves protecting mages, it's going to be kind of hard to do that if you don't think of them as people.
Cullen should support making mages Tranquil when the situation calls for it. That's in no way the same thing as suggesting that there was merit to Alrik's preference to Tranquil all the mages in the wider area. A templar who wants to do that is not being reasonable on the argument that that's an expected attitude for a templar, and they need to be evaluated at the very least for their fitness in being able to objectively consider a mage situation.
Someone's racism MAY be understandable--but that doesn't make it justifiable, mind--but it also means that that person is NOT in any way fit to be in a profession that puts them directly over the objects of their racism, because their racism WILL negatively impact their work performance.
Modifié par Silfren, 05 mai 2013 - 08:00 .
#249
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 08:05
Hazegurl
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Silfren wrote...
Hazegurl wrote...]
Templars make mages Tranquil when needed. Cullen should support making mages Tranquil. Mages are weapons, if they aren't then why would Duncan ask for them for Calin's army? And whocares if he doesn't think they are human? If it doesn't interfere with him doing his job fairly then what does it matter? I may not care much for John McCain, but I wouldn't fault him for being racists toward Vietnamese after what he went through.(Please no political debates, just using the dude as an ex)
That is a pathetically stupid idea. Not thinking mages are human DOES prevent him from fairly doing his job. If part of your job involves protecting mages, it's going to be kind of hard to do that if you don't think of them as people.
Cullen should support making mages Tranquil when the situation calls for it. That's in no way the same thing as suggesting that there was merit to Alrik's preference to Tranquil all the mages in the wider area. A templar who wants to do that is not being reasonable on the argument that that's an expected attitude for a templar, and they need to be evaluated at the very least for their fitness in being able to objectively consider a mage situation.
Someone's racism MAY be understandable--but that doesn't make it justifiable, mind--but it also means that that person is NOT in any way fit to be in a profession that puts them directly over the objects of their racism, because their racism WILL negatively impact their work performance.
Oh well. Hate it if you want. Cullen has been more reasonable than most Templars regardless of his personal opinion on mages.
And why did you bring up Alrik? I never once stated anything about him except how he was a cartoonish character in the game.
Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Greagoir wasn't so bad, at
least in the games. He might be able to see reason. Alrik and Meredith
were insane, but they're no longer a problem. Still, I think both sides
will have to clean house with regards to the radicals if the reasonable
people on both sides want compromise.
I agree completely.
Modifié par Hazegurl, 05 mai 2013 - 08:09 .
#250
Posté 05 mai 2013 - 08:47
MisterJB
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I believe people make too much of Cullen's words. The exact wording is:
"Mages can't be treated like people, they're not like you or me."
Which is true. Mages are not like non-mages and it would be irresponsible to treat them as if they are. Cullen is not necessarely saying that the Chantry should just do what the Qunari do, only that mages require special handling due to the fact they are extremely dangerous which is, again, true.
"Mages can't be treated like people, they're not like you or me."
Which is true. Mages are not like non-mages and it would be irresponsible to treat them as if they are. Cullen is not necessarely saying that the Chantry should just do what the Qunari do, only that mages require special handling due to the fact they are extremely dangerous which is, again, true.
