731 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

MisterJB wrote...

I believe people make too much of Cullen's words. The exact wording is:
"Mages can't be treated like people, they're not like you or me."

Which is true. Mages are not like non-mages and it would be irresponsible to treat them as if they are. Cullen is not necessarely saying that the Chantry should just do what the Qunari do, only that mages require special handling due to the fact they are extremely dangerous which is, again, true.

Which does nothing to minimize the wtf'ness of saying that mages can't be treated like people.  Call them people with extraordinary and dangerous gifts, but if you don't even recognize their personhood then you're starting from a bad place.  It goes back to his dialogue in Origins as well, when he says "it is my duty to oppose all that you are."  Also a dehumanizing phrase.

To the OP, the legions of freakydeak omnicidal mages in Kirkwall didn't bother you but one mage in the comic does? 

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Which does nothing to minimize the wtf'ness of saying that mages can't be treated like people.  Call them people with extraordinary and dangerous gifts, but if you don't even recognize their personhood then you're starting from a bad place.  It goes back to his dialogue in Origins as well, when he says "it is my duty to oppose all that you are."  Also a dehumanizing phrase.

Cullen is absolutely an extremist. He balks at executing people when they've surrender, but that doesn't mean that he's somehow a moderate. The fact that he looks sane compared to Meredith is not really much to go on. 

Hell, he doesn't think the Templar Solution is all that bad, from what I recall. Not to mention that he wanted to send every mage in Ferelden to the mage gulag. 

Modifié par In Exile, 05 mai 2013 - 09:57 .

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...]
Templars make mages Tranquil when needed. Cullen should support making mages Tranquil. Mages are weapons, if they aren't then why would Duncan ask for them for Calin's army? And whocares if he doesn't think they are human? If it doesn't interfere with him doing his job fairly then what does it matter? I may not care much for John McCain, but I wouldn't fault him for being racists toward Vietnamese after what he went through.(Please no political debates, just using the dude as an ex)

That is a pathetically stupid idea.  Not thinking mages are human DOES prevent him from fairly doing his job.  If part of your job involves protecting mages, it's going to be kind of hard to do that if you don't think of them as people. 

Cullen should support making mages Tranquil when the situation calls for it.  That's in no way the same thing as suggesting that there was merit to Alrik's preference to Tranquil all the mages in the wider area.  A templar who wants to do that is not being reasonable on the argument that that's an expected attitude for a templar, and they need to be evaluated at the very least for their fitness in being able to objectively consider a mage situation.

Someone's racism MAY be understandable--but that doesn't make it justifiable, mind--but it also means that that person is NOT in any way fit to be in a profession that puts them directly over the objects of their racism, because their racism WILL negatively impact their work performance.

Oh well. Hate it if you want. Cullen has been more reasonable than most Templars regardless of his personal opinion on mages.

And why did you bring up Alrik? I never once stated anything about him except how he was a cartoonish character in the game.

For the obvious reason that it is in context of Alrik's Tranquil Solution that we hear Cullen's perspective on the subject.  We don't hear Cullen claiming that he supports making mages Tranquil when it is deemed necessary, we hear him specifically defending Alrik's plan.

Cullen was shown to be more reasonable than Meredith, not 'most' templars, and ONLY at the end of the game, with nothing to make this change in his attitude make any sense. 

I hate it not because I 'want' to, but because it is, objectively, a ragingly stupid idea.  You don't put a person with demonstrably unreasonable opinions about mages into a position of authority over them.  Cullen's trauma in Origins makes his feelings understandable, but it also makes it VERY obvious that he cannot be depended on to be objective in a position that requires objectivity.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 mai 2013 - 10:35 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
For the obvious reason that it is in context of Alrik's Tranquil Solution that we hear Cullen's perspective on the subject.  We don't hear Cullen claiming that he supports making mages Tranquil when it is deemed necessary, we hear him specifically defending Alrik's plan.

No, what he says is that the Rite was always a last resort but that there is discussion for applying it more broadly and that, ultimately, it is in the hands of the mages whether they will push the Templars to more stringent measures.
He defendes the Rite of Tranquility and believes that the mages force the hands of the templars  but that's the extent of it. He doesn't say whether or not he agrees with the faction arguing for a more general use of the Rite, much less Alrik's plan.

[Hazegurl]

Cullen never says he approves of the plan, nor is he defending it. He simply explains what is going on and how mages view being made Tranquil overall.

Cullen quotes:

(To Hawke about the Tranquil Solution after Dissent, Act II) "It's true there has been some discussion of the idea. But as you can see, it has gone no further than that. The Harrowing has served us well enough for centuries. It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures."

(Hawke asks him, if he approves of Ser Alrik's plan after Dissent, Act II) "The Tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that mages need not be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose. There is an argument to be made for applying it more widely. But the mages have made it clear they view the ritual as no better than death. They want no controls on them at all."

Modifié par Hazegurl, 05 mai 2013 - 11:06 .

[Xilizhra]

So what you're saying is that you've actually got a serious problem with the joining the Qun, prima facie, and a big part of it seems to be that they're (i) expansionist; and (ii) hate mages.

Edit: Again, I don't like the qunari either, despite what I've been arguing in this thread. I just happen to think it's better than you're honest about disliking it and not having qualms about kiling the elves because of the cause you believe in, than pretending otherwise.

Because the Qun is what it is, yes. There can be no peace between the Qun and Thedas because the Qun demands that there be no peace. It's entirely on their end to make it.

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sten and Morrigan don't try to kill The Warden because a demon offered them something a few seconds prior, unlike the asinine plot of "Night Terrors" that makes no sense.

No, Sten and Morrigan are resistant to the trick the demon is playing on them. They have shown not to be influenced by the demons in the fade. Yet Merrill was influenced. Or are you arguing that Merrill wasn't influenced and betrayed Hawke of sound mind?

You mean Sten and Morrigan realize they aren't in the real world anymore, and see through the deception of the abomination, with absolutely no companion attempting to murder The Warden in cold blood, despite the Sloth Demon's hold on everyone in the Fade?

In contrast, Merrill tries to kill Hawke in "Night Terrors" like every other companion, with the exception of Anders, because one of the demons offered her something. Which is the same reason the other companions attempt to murder Hawke in cold blood.

[Xilizhra]

You mean Sten and Morrigan realize they aren't in the real world anymore, and see through the deception of the abomination, with absolutely no companion attempting to murder The Warden in cold blood, despite the Sloth Demon's hold on everyone in the Fade?

I should point out that neither one of them could leave on their own anyway. The sloth demon didn't really have to deceive them, just to keep them there; its goal had been accomplished regardless of belief or disbelief.

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
There's no parallel. Isabella was a criminal by their standards, and moreover, I've never denied that their forceful conversion is just that.

So it's okay to beat criminals? Since when?

This is ridiculous. There's absolutely no evidence that Qunari beat other Qunari, and what it proves is that the Elves, by joining the Qun, would no longer get beaten at the whim of others.

That's the point. Of course it doesn't make them good people - but only that straw figure you built up to argue against actually said that they were good people. I certainly didn't.

There's no evidence that they don't, either.

You said the elves would have "better lives". They won't. They'll have the illsuion of a better life, much like an abusive relationship often creates the illusion of a decent one. Elves are abused by non-Qunari, but at least they aren't told that the abuse is good for them and they have to like it. And they aren't made to abuse others, including their fellow elves, as the Qun will force them to.

That is the key difference between the mages and the elves that joined the Qun. The mages are doing only what is necessary to obtain their freedom, the elves are actively infringing on the freedoms of others when, being elves, they should know better.

Which you shouldn't, because we have absolutely no evidence that any of the qunari see that as any kind of violation of their personal and physical integrity.

"It's not rape if you've been brainwashed into consenting when you otherwise would not have!"

And even if we do count their breeding program as - to some extent - constituting a serious breach of personal integrity, there's still no evidence it's anywhere near the scale of what, for example, the elves do endure in the Alienages.

At least the humans that are committing rape don't tell the elves they have to like it.

Oh, we're doing the thing where you're completely intellectual bankrupt again and arguing with strawmen. For the elves to be better off, poverty and disease don't have to be eradicated. There just has to be significantly less of it when compared with the Alienage. 

In terms of disease, the Qunari are the most advanced nation on Thedas in terms of medical knowledge, and there's every indication that they don't discriminate based on class given access to resources, per what Sten says re: Seheron. So in terms of actual access to medicine, what the elves receive in the Qun is far greater than otherwise.

Where is this ever stated?

But that doesn't matter to people who are its members, which is what we're talking about the CEs becoming.

It should matter, and if it doesn't, then the City Elves are exactly as morally bankrupt as the humans that torture them. In joining the Qun they become everything they hate for the sake of selfish gain.

Whether or not the Qun is a good organization is irrelevant in terms of whether or not the CEs are better off being part of it. Which is the argument we're actually having.

My argument is that the elves aren't better off because the Qun is a bad organisation that will abuse them and will force them to abuse others.

There's no "horror" and "tortment" facing the CEs.

Because they don't have a single ****ing clue what joining the Qun actually entails, and apparently neither do you.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 mai 2013 - 01:42 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That misses the point about why Decimus attacks Hawke and his moiety crew: he thinks they are templars. Why would Decimus think that Merrill is a templar? Or Varric, Isabela, Anders, Fenris, or an apostate Hawke? [/quote]

Decimus does not think you are a Templar. He thinks you are with them or either working for them.  So yeah, "The Templars are here." or whatever he says makes perfect sense. Think about it. [/quote]

When Decimus sees Hawke and his companions, he says: "The templars have come to take us back to the Circle". Grace even responds that they aren't templars. Given that Merrill can accompany Hawke at this time (who is a member of a group who have been hunted by templars since the Chantry sacked their kingdom), it makes absolutely no sense.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

They are trapped inside a cave and the only way inside has a Templar guarding the passage who is waiting on reenforcements. A group of people have entered the cave and taken down all their magical defenses and killed their protectors. What on earth do you think Decimus will think? Is he supposed to say. "Oh welcome stranger who I know came here because the Templars informed you of my location and gave you a free pass to enter. I totally trust you no questions asked because you have an elf mage with you that I know jack squat about. Come have some cake and pie?" [/quote]

I would have hoped for Decimus to act like an actual person, instead of a damn caricature who made absolutely no sense. Why not simply ask why Hawke and his moiety crew were there? Why attack immediately, even though there's a member of the Dalish in Hawke's company - a known enemy of the templars?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

As for Quentin, so what? Mages like him exist. Just like that cartoonish Templar Ser Alirk.

"That's right. Once you're Tranquil, you'll do anything I ask."  [/quote]

Insane and stupid mage antagonists existed throughout the narrative of Dragon Age II. That's the problem. It made the dichotomy between mages and templars pointless.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke saves a defenseless woman who is about to be killed by Meredith's death squad because she fed her tortured mage cousin in the pro-mage run (specifically, the Act III quest "A Noble Agenda"). ..... [/quote]

Ah I see, Oh well, these death squads didn't exist in any of my games. As for your game, you encountered one quest with it. By the way you spoke you had me thinking they were all over the city or something. That actually would have been very interesting as Kirkwall was dull all around. Anyway,  I don't agree with that, just like I don't agree with Meredith ruling Kirkwall or calling an RoA....but I'm not killing Templars in the streets just to allow some blood mages to escape into the public. So yeah, and I still got to kill Meredith like I wanted to in the end. [/quote]

You don't get to pick and chose what's part of the story. The death squad exists, just like the nobles who want to topple Meredith exist. You simply don't deal with them because your Hawke supports Meredith.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Resolutionists only appear once. If they are such a concern, why does no one else mention them as a threat? Why do we never see them again? [/quote]

The same argument can be said of your death squad and if they were so important then why not come to a neutral Hawke, if they truly needed Hawke's help? I guess the death squad and the resolutionists aren't that important in the end. [/quote]

Because Meredith's death squad is murdering civilians, while the Resolutionists targetted individuals they thought were members of an organized that has oppressed mages in an institution many condemn as slavery (including the pro-mage protagonist)?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

]And we already have someone who seized power: Meredith. Why doesn't the Divine do something about this? [/quote]

How do you know they weren't? Anders's irrational actions pretty much leave us all speculating about what could have been. [/quote]

Nothing was done for over three years about Meredith's dictatorship and death squad.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I suppose so, because I don't think he's much better than Meredith. Cullen is a templar who thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people and views them as weapons, supports the Tranquil Solution, and is willing to let hundreds of men, women, and children get killed even though they are innocent of Anders' actions. He's only willing to stop Meredith when she threatens Hawke specifically. If he appears in the next game, I would hope he isn't a mandatory companion. [/quote]

So bascially you would only support a Templar who, number one doesn't do his/her job and number two, because they have opinions that are the same as yours. [/quote]

I didn't realize killing hundreds of innocent people was part of the job description. I guess the Right of Annulment on the Circle of Rivain should have proved me wrong, though.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Templars make mages Tranquil when needed. Cullen should support making mages Tranquil. Mages are weapons, if they aren't then why would Duncan ask for them for Calin's army? [/quote]

Duncan doesn't think that mages shouldn't be treated as people, and doesn't view them simply as weapons.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

And whocares if he doesn't think they are human? If it doesn't interfere with him doing his job fairly then what does it matter? I may not care much for John McCain, but I wouldn't fault him for being racists toward Vietnamese after what he went through.(Please no political debates, just using the dude as an ex) [/quote]

You might not care how Cullen views mages, but I do.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

And I can't fault him for refusing to fall on his sword for the sake of mages and thus chose to follow orders even if he disagreed with them, especially since I sided with the Templars too even though I didn't agree with Meredith. And although this may not exist in your playthrough, in mine Cullen speaks up against Meredith before she threatens Hawke. And it's Cullen who supports Hawke in saving those mages who ask for help.

So yeah that's my Knight-Commander [/quote]

The man who was just "following orders". That's your excuse for Cullen's actions?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, Merrill advocates not killing Anders. And you're ignoring my points because they disprove yours. [/quote]

None of that doesn't make her racist or I guess I should say she has that Dalish superiority complex that makes her come across as racist. And I haven't ignored your posts, you say the same thing all the time. So I prefer to snip and address all at once. As a matter of fact let me address another thing about Merrill as I see no reason to have two separate replies in one post about that girl. She is a moron who would have gotten herself possessed. She isn't as accomplished at dealing with demons as Sten and he isn't even a mage. [/quote]

Merrill doesn't come across as racist. She is friends with Varric and Isabela, and she shows concern over Isabela's plight involving the Qunari. She tries to be friendly with Anders and Fenris, but the two spurn her attempts at friendship for several years, but that doesn't stop her from opposing turning Fenris over to Danarius, or giving Anders a second chance over his actions.

She also displays her intellect time and again. She uses her intellect to construct an Eluvian from a single shard, from the lore she gathered and the information she extrapolated from the shard. She is also able to distinquish the nature of the Profane Abomination, and can tell if Keran is possessed.

Your condemnation of Merrill is disproven by the story. It's as simple as that.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how much you've gotten wrong (like Leliana revealing that she let word slip about the meeting), that's not really much of a retort. Especially since you basically imagined some statement from me that there aren't any nobles who oppose overthrowing Meredith, when such a comment doesn't exist in reality. [/quote]

Sigh, keep on saying I got it wrong about Leliana when all you're doing is latching onto one small part of my post "No one knows about" to proclaim my entire statement wrong. It still doesn't disprove the fact that those mages showed up to assassinate an offical of their own free will. How did they know about the meeting if they weren't fishing for the info to begin with? They were lured there because they were stalking. You are totally trying to whitewash the intent of those mages. [/quote]

I'm pointing out that Leliana let the information "slip" to lure the Resolutionists out, which disproved your earlier contention that she didn't because it was a "secret meeting".

The Chantry controlled Circles are condemned as slavery by many, from in-game authors to characters like the historical Aldenon the Wise (who co-founded Ferelden with Calenhad) and pro-mage Hawke. I'm not surprised some characters would turn to violence to liberate their people. However, Leliana's comments make no sense. She let word out about the meeting. She then used their attack to lay all the blame on them for the unrest in Kirkwall. That makes absolutely no sense, especially when we saw how Meredith's dictatorship has caused such unrest that even the neigboring ruler of Ferelden sees her as a threat to the city-state.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

I never said YOU said no nobles opposed Meredith. What the heck are you even talking about? I pretty much said that in my game there are no nobles that oppose Meredith to your claim telling me that nobles oppose her in MY game. What exists in your game does not exist in mine, that is a fact.

So done with you right now, seriously. [/quote]

You're not an author of Dragon Age II. Neither am I. Your fan fic doesn't supercede the facts, either. Simply because your protagonist supports Meredith, and doesn't meet those nobles who oppose Meredith as a consequence, doesn't mean those nobles never existed. It's not as though they were born the moment your Champion publicly advocates Meredith and her rule over the city. 

You don't get to ignore the fact simply because you dislike the fact that some people in Kirkwall condemn Meredith's dictatorship.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Democracy? [/quote]

You mean the political structure based on obediance to the majority and NOT individual rights and freedom that you keep claiming mages stand for? [/quote]

A democratic vote to break away from a system where the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order have all the power over the mages. I don't see why you continue to vilify the mages for refusing to live their lives in servitude to the Chantry anymore.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You realize they work people to death who don't follow the Qun, right? In mines and construction camps. [/quote]

Those city elves seemed willing to follow the Qun. And yes, it is similar. [/quote]

No, it isn't similar. The hundreds of men, women, and children are fleeing for their lives, and fighting the templars if Meredith's soldiers attempt to kill them. In contrast, the Qunari elves are trying to help the Arishok subjugate all of Kirkwall under the rule of the Arishok, which means being killed or working the people to death if they refuse to submit to the Qun. Humans and elves alike. The fact that you make a disingenious argument to compare the two as similar shows how hollow your argument truly is.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, according to the developer, those mages will likely be made tranquil - that's what usually happens to mages who are spared during the Right of Annulment. I'm not sure why you think otherwise. [/quote]

Cause like you I can make up whatever I want that wasn't shown to me in game.  You can imagine a boat load of mages being saved by siding with them even though you never see it and I can imagine that since my Hawke is Viscount I can decide the fate of those mages myself. [/quote]

Varric explicitly says that there were many survivors from the Gallows if Hawke protects the mages from the templars. Therefore, I don't need to "imagine" anything.

And your Viscount has no authority over the mages because they are under the authority of the Order of Templars and the Chantry of Andraste. Your fan fiction isn't supported by the lore.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm pretty sure the fact that Meredith asks you to commit genocide against innocent people is something you care nothing about. [/quote]

No, I don't care about committing genocide against 3d characters in a video game. Maybe you need to figure out why you care so much.  [/quote]

Considering how much time you put into these responses, that's an odd comment.

[Solmanian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

using blood magic isn't evil. The Grey Warden mages have also used blood magic.

The wardens use as a "end justifies the means", not because they think it's not morally reprehensible. It's in the same way that some countries treat WMD's (which is still wrong 99.99% of the times).

Blood magic isn't evil. The Joining Ritual is blood magic. The phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian was blood magic. It's also the only form of magic that templars can't nullify, which is useful for the mages who don't want to live in subjugation to the templars or the Chantry.

It's been stated in the game stated that merely using blood as a component in a spell doesn't constitute as "blood magic". It only counts as "blood magic" if the blood is power source. Finn's ritual and the phylacteries could probably use other things as replacement for blood, like a lock of hair, if the circles would've made additional research into it. Those applications merely seem as the magical equivelent of forensic DNA scans. The reason they aren't performing additional research is probably because for overzealus templars (which seem to be the majority), and for BSN posters apparently, a spell that contains blood, even as a component, is blood magic or atleast "close enough"; good luck explaining to a templar that your spell merely uses blood as a component and not as a power source, so it's technically "not blood magic".

Maybe you're right, maybe blood magic by itself is not more evil than say nuclear power. But it does seem that the vast majority of blood mages seem to have and "evil" disposition. Maybe it can be used to cure cancer, eyt it usually used for mind control and supercharging fireballs. the very nature of blood magic is conducive to "evil" behaviour:

Step 1: you use your own blood as a power source. it's incredibly taxing, and there is only so much blood you can use without fainting. Every spell leaves you tired, and it takes you between hours to days to recopurate.

Step 2 (optional): you an accomplise/s. Preferably non-mages, that willingly give their blood. You now have a much larger power source than before, allowing you to cast more powerfull spells. But the most powerfull spells require the complete draining of several people; you run out of volunteers very quickly. Most BM's simlply jump to---

Step 3: you stop asking asking, and start taking people blood. If you're in tevinter, there's a supply of slaves for you to purchase for reasonable prices; feel free to use whatever ethical acrobatics you need to justify draining them, "the greater good" is a popular scapegoat. If you're not in tevinter, you prey on the fringes of society, city elves or humans/dwarves who are simply poor. You maticulasly "stockpile" your victims to be drained in orgies of blood letting where you drain a dozen victims and more to perform veritable "miracles".

[IanPolaris]

Solmanian wrote...

It's been stated in the game stated that merely using blood as a component in a spell doesn't constitute as "blood magic".

Incorrect.  FINN states that he doesn't regard it as really bloodmagic for that reason, but admits that others may disagree and asks everyone else to keep it to themselves.  We later learn by WoG that the Grey Warden Ceremony and Phylactery Rituals are both in fact blood magic.

-Polaris

[Bleachrude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

using blood magic isn't evil. The Grey Warden mages have also used blood magic.

The wardens use as a "end justifies the means", not because they think it's not morally reprehensible. It's in the same way that some countries treat WMD's (which is still wrong 99.99% of the times).

Blood magic isn't evil. The Joining Ritual is blood magic. The phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian was blood magic. It's also the only form of magic that templars can't nullify, which is useful for the mages who don't want to live in subjugation to the templars or the Chantry.

According to World of Thedas, blood magic IS evil since it gains power from suffering/death.

As for mages not being controlled by the chantry, this might NOT be as "wonderful" as mages think. What it means is that the monarchies become responsible for the mages and even freedom loving Ferelden STILL has cnscription of its citizens.

[EmperorSahlertz]

All that was ever said about the joinning, was that it could be viewed as blood magic. Phylacteries are the only confirmed use of blood magic amongst the usual suspects of the joinning, Finn's Ritual, and phylacteries.

[LobselVith8]

Bleachrude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic isn't evil. The Joining Ritual is blood magic. The phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian was blood magic. It's also the only form of magic that templars can't nullify, which is useful for the mages who don't want to live in subjugation to the templars or the Chantry.

According to World of Thedas, blood magic IS evil since it gains power from suffering/death.

What was evil about Merrill cleansing the shard of the darkspawn corruption? Or Finn locating the Eluvian of the Dragonbone Wastes? What's evil about the Joining that allows men and women to effectively combat the threat of the darkspawn, and permanently defeat the Archdemon?

"The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons." Blood magic deals with the physical, but simply because the Chantry has vilified it doesn't make it evil.

Bleachrude wrote...

As for mages not being controlled by the chantry, this might NOT be as "wonderful" as mages think. What it means is that the monarchies become responsible for the mages and even freedom loving Ferelden STILL has cnscription of its citizens. 

I think you're wholly missing the point that the mages simply seek autonomy from an organization that has vilified the mages using religion for nearly a millennia, and has used that to keep virtually all the mages in the Andrastian kingdom under their thumb. It's not about being "wonderful", it's about being free.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Niether the joinning nor Finn's Ritual is blood magic. They are both magical rituals including blood, but until you can prove that they are both powered by suffering and death, ie, the blood in the spell, then neither is blood magic. Some ignorants might view it as such, but that does not make it so technically.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 06 mai 2013 - 11:57 .

[Eleinehmm]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Niether the joinning nor Finn's Ritual is blood magic. They are both magical rituals including blood, but until you can prove that they are both powered by suffering and death, ie, the blood in the spell, then neither is blood magic. Some ignorants might view it as such, but that does not make it so technically.

Actually It is blood magic, as per older DG posts. I have been reading DA lore posts since before the game came out  and it was def. asked and answered by the devs.  The canon might have changed but I  see no indication it had.

Your def of blood magic is not the one that's used in the DA universe  [Blood magic -  The use of blood to power magic , p 177 The World of Thedas)].  Nothing about suffering and death.  Magic using blood instead of/together with lyrium= blood magic

edit: additional quotes

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 06 mai 2013 - 12:46 .

[Xilizhra]

As for mages not being controlled by the chantry, this might NOT be as "wonderful" as mages think. What it means is that the monarchies become responsible for the mages and even freedom loving Ferelden STILL has cnscription of its citizens.

Why should the Circle submit to any new master? It should become its own international and independent organization akin to the Chantry.

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering how much time you put into these responses, that's an odd comment.

It doesn't take much time to respond to you at all.

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for mages not being controlled by the chantry, this might NOT be as "wonderful" as mages think. What it means is that the monarchies become responsible for the mages and even freedom loving Ferelden STILL has cnscription of its citizens.

Why should the Circle submit to any new master? It should become its own international and independent organization akin to the Chantry.

No matter what they still would be under the control of someone, the Monarchy sounds about right.

[Xilizhra]

Hazegurl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As for mages not being controlled by the chantry, this might NOT be as "wonderful" as mages think. What it means is that the monarchies become responsible for the mages and even freedom loving Ferelden STILL has cnscription of its citizens.

Why should the Circle submit to any new master? It should become its own international and independent organization akin to the Chantry.

No matter what they still would be under the control of someone, the Monarchy sounds about right.

I don't see them as terribly more trustworthy than the Chantry. They ought to be free of both. They can regulate mages enough without needing masters from on high.

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As for mages not being controlled by the chantry, this might NOT be as "wonderful" as mages think. What it means is that the monarchies become responsible for the mages and even freedom loving Ferelden STILL has cnscription of its citizens.

Why should the Circle submit to any new master? It should become its own international and independent organization akin to the Chantry.

No matter what they still would be under the control of someone, the Monarchy sounds about right.

I don't see them as terribly more trustworthy than the Chantry. They ought to be free of both. They can regulate mages enough without needing masters from on high.

Maybe we're viewing it differently. They aren't a religious organization like the Chantry. Any organization the mages create would still have to abide by whatever regulations and laws created by the monarchies of their countries. If the King creates a law that restricts the practice of magic in certain areas they would have no choice but to obey. If the King creates a law that makes it mandatory for mages to take up military service for x amount of time, they have to obey. In the end, there will always be masters calling the shots.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe we're viewing it differently. They aren't a religious organization like the Chantry. Any organization the mages create would still have to abide by whatever regulations and laws created by the monarchies of their countries. If the King creates a law that restricts the practice of magic in certain areas they would have no choice but to obey. If the King creates a law that makes it mandatory for mages to take up military service for x amount of time, they have to obey. In the end, there will always be masters calling the shots.

Why would monarchies get to regulate magic they have no knowledge of? I don't see the Circle trying to determine freeholder tax rates.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Eleinehmm wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Niether the joinning nor Finn's Ritual is blood magic. They are both magical rituals including blood, but until you can prove that they are both powered by suffering and death, ie, the blood in the spell, then neither is blood magic. Some ignorants might view it as such, but that does not make it so technically.

Actually It is blood magic, as per older DG posts. I have been reading DA lore posts since before the game came out  and it was def. asked and answered by the devs.  The canon might have changed but I  see no indication it had.

Your def of blood magic is not the one that's used in the DA universe  [Blood magic -  The use of blood to power magic , p 177 The World of Thedas)].  Nothing about suffering and death.  Magic using blood instead of/together with lyrium= blood magic

edit: additional quotes

As of World of Thedas, blood magic is now defined as a spell powered by blood and fueled bydeath and suffering. And I remember those odler posts you are referring to, and DG said that the joinning could be viewed as blood magic. The same goes for Finn's spell. But since neither appears to be powered by the blood, or death and suffering of its victims, neither of them appears to be blood magic. However to the uninformed who does not know the specifics of Blood Magic, say for instance an ignorant peasant, it would certainly seem like blood magic, since it is magic, and it involves blood.

[Xilizhra]

I don't know if "suffering" really counts if it's both completely voluntary and trivially easy to heal.