731 réponses à ce sujet

[Mykel54]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Niether the joinning nor Finn's Ritual is blood magic. They are both magical rituals including blood, but until you can prove that they are both powered by suffering and death, ie, the blood in the spell, then neither is blood magic. Some ignorants might view it as such, but that does not make it so technically.

Actually It is blood magic, as per older DG posts. I have been reading DA lore posts since before the game came out  and it was def. asked and answered by the devs.  The canon might have changed but I  see no indication it had.

Your def of blood magic is not the one that's used in the DA universe  [Blood magic -  The use of blood to power magic , p 177 The World of Thedas)].  Nothing about suffering and death.  Magic using blood instead of/together with lyrium= blood magic

edit: additional quotes

As of World of Thedas, blood magic is now defined as a spell powered by blood and fueled bydeath and suffering. And I remember those odler posts you are referring to, and DG said that the joinning could be viewed as blood magic. The same goes for Finn's spell. But since neither appears to be powered by the blood, or death and suffering of its victims, neither of them appears to be blood magic. However to the uninformed who does not know the specifics of Blood Magic, say for instance an ignorant peasant, it would certainly seem like blood magic, since it is magic, and it involves blood.

Ser Jory disagrees

The joining ritual fits the requisites you wrote:
-It is a spell (needs lyrium, prepared by mages) who is powered by darkspan and archdemon blood
-The joining causes extreme pain or death to the victim, the warden recruit

Therefore it is pretty clear to me that the joining is blood magic. I have more doubt about the philacteries, but i am sure bioware will think something to keep them as blood magic, like: they are activated by the templar cutting himself and dropping some blood on it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think the suffering and death parts merely make the spells more powerful, and that otherwise blood alone powers the spell. So if you take a life to cast the spell, it will be more powerful than if you didn't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mykel54 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Niether the joinning nor Finn's Ritual is blood magic. They are both magical rituals including blood, but until you can prove that they are both powered by suffering and death, ie, the blood in the spell, then neither is blood magic. Some ignorants might view it as such, but that does not make it so technically.

Actually It is blood magic, as per older DG posts. I have been reading DA lore posts since before the game came out  and it was def. asked and answered by the devs.  The canon might have changed but I  see no indication it had.

Your def of blood magic is not the one that's used in the DA universe  [Blood magic -  The use of blood to power magic , p 177 The World of Thedas)].  Nothing about suffering and death.  Magic using blood instead of/together with lyrium= blood magic

edit: additional quotes

As of World of Thedas, blood magic is now defined as a spell powered by blood and fueled bydeath and suffering. And I remember those odler posts you are referring to, and DG said that the joinning could be viewed as blood magic. The same goes for Finn's spell. But since neither appears to be powered by the blood, or death and suffering of its victims, neither of them appears to be blood magic. However to the uninformed who does not know the specifics of Blood Magic, say for instance an ignorant peasant, it would certainly seem like blood magic, since it is magic, and it involves blood.

Ser Jory disagrees

The joining ritual fits the requisites you wrote:
-It is a spell (needs lyrium, prepared by mages) who is powered by darkspan and archdemon blood
-The joining causes extreme pain or death to the victim, the warden recruit

Therefore it is pretty clear to me that the joining is blood magic. I have more doubt about the philacteries, but i am sure bioware will think something to keep them as blood magic, like: they are activated by the templar cutting himself and dropping some blood on it.

Ser Jory was cut down by Duncan:huh: I'm guessing you meant Daveth.. But even so, the Joinning Ritual does not seem to draw its power from the blood of the Darkspawn, but rather from the Lyrium. However, Lyrium and blood seems to be interchangeable, so you could make the Joinning Ritual without any Lyrium, and just power it with human blood. However, for it to be "blood magic", at least the kind i am referring to, it has to be a spell that is exclusive to blood magic, which obivously the Ritual isn't.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think the suffering and death parts merely make the spells more powerful, and that otherwise blood alone powers the spell. So if you take a life to cast the spell, it will be more powerful than if you didn't.

Does the book actually quote "suffering and death" anywhere? And, well, yes, more blood will naturally mean more power.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...
Why should the Circle submit to any new master? It should become its own international and independent organization akin to the Chantry.

I'm curious as to what your immediate and long term goals for the Magi are if they win the war. If you have it laid out in another thread somewhere you can just give me a link.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Its at least something along those lines, I can't confirm it as of now, since I'm not going to be home for a long while, but I'm sure one of the other helpful BSN'ers can come along and help us out here.

[Xilizhra]

I'm curious as to what your immediate and long term goals for the Magi are if they win the war. If you have it laid out in another thread somewhere you can just give me a link.

Relatively few specifics, because I don't know the current geopolitical situation. However, the general idea is that the Circle becomes its own international organization in charge of regulating magic and its use, and those mages who work for it. There can be nonmages with templar training who help guard the mages from demons who work for the Circle itself, and such training may also be distributed to whatever national guards/soldiers other countries see fit to. Finances are a somewhat trickier matter, as I would wish to remove the Rite of Tranquility; however, I suppose there will always be those who just don't want to be mages, so we could use those. On the other hand, if we can find a means of crafting some kind of golem that can handle lyrium without harm, given that they're also immortal, that'd go a long way to help matters. If the Circle can also successfully receive reparations from the Chantry for its own atrocities over the years, it'll be a nice little nest egg.

Its at least something along those lines, I can't confirm it as of now, since I'm not going to be home for a long while, but I'm sure one of the other helpful BSN'ers can come along and help us out here.

Yes, one did and explicitly contradicted you.

[lil yonce]

The World of Thedas-- New Lore thread says, "It seems violence or death makes blood magic spell more powerful..."

I understand why death would but the more gruesome the way in which someone dies makes blood magic stronger? That sounds pretty evil and blood magic on that scale should never be done if that's what it takes.

It just makes me wonder about the Dalish and the incident at Red Crossing-- how heinous the violence was. One goal of the Dales was to get back the secrets of Arlathan and we know two Dalish elves that have used blood magic to do so-- Merril with the mirror and Zathrian for his immortality. If they wanted immortality for their whole nation they might need a lot of blood to get it. They might sacrifice Orlais to a blight or attack them when that doesn't work out to get it. Just makes me wonder.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 06 mai 2013 - 03:17 .

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would monarchies get to regulate magic they have no knowledge of?

Because in reality, mages are assets and whoever holds the most of them wins. Any monarch who doesn't hoard his mages is simply going to get conquered by one who does.

Youth4Ever wrote...

One goal of the Dales was to get back the secrets of Arlathan and we know two Dalish elves that have used blood magic to do so-- Merril with the mirror and Zathrian for his immortality. If they wanted immortality or for their whole nation they might need a lot of blood to get it. They might sacrifice Orlais to a blight or attack them when that doesn't work out to get it. Just makes me wonder.

Zathrian's immortality was simply a by product of his curse, I don't think he was trying to become immortal.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 mai 2013 - 02:58 .

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

Relatively few specifics, because I don't know the current geopolitical situation. However, the general idea is that the Circle becomes its own international organization in charge of regulating magic and its use, and those mages who work for it. There can be nonmages with templar training who help guard the mages from demons who work for the Circle itself, and such training may also be distributed to whatever national guards/soldiers other countries see fit to. Finances are a somewhat trickier matter, as I would wish to remove the Rite of Tranquility; however, I suppose there will always be those who just don't want to be mages, so we could use those. On the other hand, if we can find a means of crafting some kind of golem that can handle lyrium without harm, given that they're also immortal, that'd go a long way to help matters. If the Circle can also successfully receive reparations from the Chantry for its own atrocities over the years, it'll be a nice little nest egg.

I like this a lot. It's what I too would envision long term. So what's the plan to help them get to this stage? I don't know that they can pry any money out of the Chantry anytime soon because Orlais will want help to rebuild after their civil war. Justinia might be able to give them something but I think they'd largely be on their own.

[lil yonce]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zathrian's immortality was simply a by product of his curse, I don't think he was trying to become immortal.

That's not really the point I was trying to make. The point was blood magic can be used to gain immortality and maybe somebody from the Dales who wanted to get it would know about that.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 06 mai 2013 - 03:10 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Its at least something along those lines, I can't confirm it as of now, since I'm not going to be home for a long while, but I'm sure one of the other helpful BSN'ers can come along and help us out here.

Yes, one did and explicitly contradicted you.

He was quoting the old definition of blood magic, so excuse me while I am not taking that as a quote from the book.....

[Xilizhra]

I like this a lot. It's what I too would envision long term. So what's the plan to help them get to this stage? I don't know that they can pry any money out of the Chantry anytime soon because Orlais will want help to rebuild after their civil war. Justinia might be able to give them something but I think they'd largely be on their own.

No idea, it depends on the events of the next game.

He was quoting the old definition of blood magic, so excuse me while I am not taking that as a quote from the book.....

It was a quote from the book, page 177.

[Solmanian]

If a spell contains Lyrium, than it can't be blood magic. Lyrium is used for "conventional" spells, because it tapping into the fade. Observe the spell jowan/irving use to confront the demon that possessed connor: you can either drain a person dry, or use a ton of lyrium. Lyrium is the power source, not the blood; the blood is used to for it's connection to the darkspawn and archdemons. An unintiated, which is probably any non-mage, would probably have no way of diferentiating between a blood spell and a spell that merely uses blood.

[Sir JK]

Re: blood magic and violence:

The World of Thedas book specifically says:

"The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful a spell becomes" page 109. Next to the picture with an elf holding a decapitated head.

So a mage that only cuts his own palm with a knife will always be weaker than the mage who gouges out the heart of a terrified and unwilling slave with a dull fork.

Xilizhra wrote...

Relatively few specifics, because I don't know the current geopolitical situation.
However, the general idea is that the Circle becomes its own international organization in charge of regulating magic and its use, and those mages who work for it.
There can be nonmages with templar training who help guard the mages from demons who work for the Circle itself, and such training may also be distributed to whatever national guards/soldiers other countries see fit to.

Finances are a somewhat trickier matter, as I would wish to remove the Rite of Tranquility; however, I suppose there will always be those who just don't want to be mages, so we could use those.

On the other hand, if we can find a means of crafting some kind of golem that can handle lyrium without harm, given that they're also immortal, that'd go a long way to help matters. If the Circle can also successfully receive reparations from the Chantry for its own atrocities over the years, it'll be a nice little nest egg.

Finances will indeed be the trickier matter. Because an organisation like the circles is anything but cheap. Selling enchanted goods will go a long way of course, but if you limit the amount of tranquil the amount they can produce will be limited. I suspect that currently most of it's funding come from taxes paid to the Chantry (a guess I admit, based on what the catholic church used to do in the equalient era).
I suppose they eitehr could go banking, selling mercenary services or collect taxes of their own. Though all approaches has it's dangers and will involve the circles in international politics.

But two other questions that needs to be considered:

Who guarantees the circles neutrality? Who prevents sovereign states from deciding that they much rather have a bunch of mage slaves serving them than a bunch of uppity international slaves. Like it or not, but the Chantry have (or used to have) a lot of force backing it up when it told the kings and queens: "Hands off!". How could the mages achieve the same thing? Or will the new circles have to be so mercenray and servile that they'll do whatever the kings of the nations they're based in bids them to.

To whom do the circles answer to? Not just the individual mages/circles but the entire movement? In theory, now they answer to the templars, whom answer to the Chantry whom in turn answer to the moral and divine authority. It does not work very well in praxis sure, but it does make a lot of surrounding warlords a lot calmer about it's presence.
So to whom would the world have to look if one circles decides to pull a coup and the international movement shrugs and decides it's for the best?

It's an interesting idea and a decent suggestion . Though if it ever is to work it needs to be funded, protected and regulated. If those questions does not have solid answers then it won't matter how nice the suggestion is: it would be doomed to fail.

[Xilizhra]

Who guarantees the circles neutrality? Who prevents sovereign states from deciding that they much rather have a bunch of mage slaves serving them than a bunch of uppity international slaves. Like it or not, but the Chantry have (or used to have) a lot of force backing it up when it told the kings and queens: "Hands off!". How could the mages achieve the same thing? Or will the new circles have to be so mercenray and servile that they'll do whatever the kings of the nations they're based in bids them to.

A decent point. The mages need to be able to wield enough force that attempting to take forcible control of any Circle would be too risky for any attempt. One idea is that it might involve some kind of agreement that if any Circle is threatened, any agreements that all Circles have with the nations they're housed in are null and void, or some similar arrangement to make other nations come down hard on any single one that breaks the agreement. But to know more, I'll need to see the third game. However, this may be a situation that justifies the presence of court mages who have a... specialized skillset, in case someone has too many ideas.

To whom do the circles answer to? Not just the individual mages/circles but the entire movement? In theory, now they answer to the templars, whom answer to the Chantry whom in turn answer to the moral and divine authority. It does not work very well in praxis sure, but it does make a lot of surrounding warlords a lot calmer about it's presence.
So to whom would the world have to look if one circles decides to pull a coup and the international movement shrugs and decides it's for the best?

The Grand Enchanter and whomever leads the semi-templars, who would possibly be of basically equal status.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sir JK wrote...

Re: blood magic and violence:

The World of Thedas book specifically says:

"The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful a spell becomes" page 109. Next to the picture with an elf holding a decapitated head.

So a mage that only cuts his own palm with a knife will always be weaker than the mage who gouges out the heart of a terrified and unwilling slave with a dull fork.

Thank you.

[Hazegurl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would monarchies get to regulate magic they have no knowledge of?

Because in reality, mages are assets and whoever holds the most of them wins. Any monarch who doesn't hoard his mages is simply going to get conquered by one who does.

Right, any smart ruler would do well to keep a count on the mages living within his/her Kingdom as well as their enemy's. There is no reason why a ruler wouldn't create new laws based on mages gaining independance from the Chantry. If the mages don't want to anwser to the Monarchy then they better be prepared for yet another war to fight and then it could reach a point where other monarchs may just find that having mages within their kingdoms are more trouble than they are worth. So yeah when the King summons they better arrive with bells on. The thought of mages never having to anwser to any ruler is idealistic. Even if the mages somehow won the Kingdom and throne (very slim chance of that happening btw) other mages will have to anwser to whichever mage becomes the King.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
However, this may be a situation that justifies the presence of court mages who have a... specialized skillset, in case someone has too many ideas.

There can be nonmages with templar training who help guard the mages from demons who work for the Circle itself

Blood Mages controlling the minds of rulers; templars being paid by the very people they're supposed to police.
I don't see any way this could possibly go wrong at all.

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
However, this may be a situation that justifies the presence of court mages who have a... specialized skillset, in case someone has too many ideas.

There can be nonmages with templar training who help guard the mages from demons who work for the Circle itself

Blood Mages controlling the minds of rulers; templars being paid by the very people they're supposed to police.
I don't see any way this could possibly go wrong at all.

I'll grab the popcorn for this.

[Eleinehmm]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Re: blood magic and violence:

The World of Thedas book specifically says:

"The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful a spell becomes" page 109. Next to the picture with an elf holding a decapitated head.

So a mage that only cuts his own palm with a knife will always be weaker than the mage who gouges out the heart of a terrified and unwilling slave with a dull fork.

Thank you.

Yes, but my def. is from the book too. We don't know if we can make Joining more potent with ****load of blood, so this argument is irrelevant. It still fits the appendix defenition in the book  => Blood magic

[Xilizhra]

Blood Mages controlling the minds of rulers; templars being paid by the very people they're supposed to police.
I don't see any way this could possibly go wrong at all.

Every police force I know of is paid by the people they're policing, even if indirectly. And I recall that you said you couldn't trust mages to police nonmages either... so which is it? Should police be a part of the same demographic as the policed, or not? Or, perhaps more reasonably, should they be mixed?

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Every police force I know of is paid by the people they're policing, even if indirectly.
And I recall that you said you couldn't trust mages to police nonmages either... so which is it? Should police be a part of the same demographic as the policed, or not? Or, perhaps more reasonably, should they be mixed?

And those who can pay more, receive more "justice". A mixed police force of mages and Templars is an acceptable middle term, so long as the Templars are not working FOR the Circle nor are they being paid BY the Circle.
Rather, they must be mantained and answer to someone who actually has an interest in keeping mages from harming non-mages whether it be the Chantry, the head of state; NOT mind controlled by blood mages; or simply the non-mage population.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Every police force I know of is paid by the people they're policing, even if indirectly.
And I recall that you said you couldn't trust mages to police nonmages either... so which is it? Should police be a part of the same demographic as the policed, or not? Or, perhaps more reasonably, should they be mixed?

And those who can pay more, receive more "justice". A mixed police force of mages and Templars is an acceptable middle term, so long as the Templars are not working FOR the Circle nor are they being paid BY the Circle.
Rather, they must be mantained and answer to someone who actually has an interest in keeping mages from harming non-mages whether it be the Chantry, the head of state; NOT mind controlled by blood mages; or simply the non-mage population.

It won't be any of those. It's possible that my sentinels will be a fully independent group, however, that just works in tandem with the Circle, but does not control it. Of course, other nations will have full power to deploy their own warriors with templar training to be posted amongst their populace to defend against criminal mages or demons.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 mai 2013 - 05:27 .

[MisterJB]

Good thing you're not writing the story, then.