731 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

LPPrince wrote...

Actually I was thinking that he'd be fine at the start of the game, and his catatonia would begin towards end game. Like, some event in DA3 just sends him over the deep end, and he's just gone.

FemInquisitor-"Cullen, please! Speak to me! SAY SOMETHING, ANYTHING!"

*FemInquisitor looks into his eyes, and nothing*

FemInquisitor needs to be pulled away screaming and crying by squadmates

Pheeew, thats deep

Would make things interesting as well should the Inquisitor be a mage thats romancing him, should that even be possible.

Careful.  Last time I suggested romancing Cullen as mage I was ripped a new one over how disgusting it was to want Cullen to be in a battered wife relationship and to want to force him to deny his vows.

But yeah, I think that kind of relationship has a ton of potential.  I could see our idea playing out, especially if Cullen is romancing a mage who does things he finds reprehensible.  Or even the conflict of his being on the side of the rogue templars while being in love with a mage Inquisitor who is pro-Chantry and mages.

[LPPrince]

I remember that, actually. lolololol

MagexTemplar would make for some interesting back and forth. Hopefully in the background though as I'm a little tired of this subplot. Was my least favorite in DAO, then it turned out to be more important than anything else in DA2.

[Hazegurl]

I would love to play a mage romancing Cullen. He fell for a mage once so I don't see the harm of him falling for one again. I doubt he would end up some jibbering wasteful drunk. This is the same man who saw all his friends get killed and refused to allow himself to be possessed. He has a strong will and if he loses that he won't be Cullen anymore. IMO.

[Solmanian]

Silfren wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think some people would prefer to vilify blood magic rather than acknowledge that it's not inherently evil. They act like the abuses of this specific school performed by the Magisters should condemn all blood magic. There are Grey Wardens and apostates (like Merrill) who haven't used it for malicious purposes.

The only cannonical grey warden practicing blood magic is the guy that summonedan army of demons to overthrow the rightfull king of fereldan, and got pretty much every warden but him killed in the process. And oh yeh, he also turtured and killed a ****load of wardens in the hopes of creating a taint-based magic (similar to what darkspawn are using).

Merril is a showcase of an impossibly naive approach to blood magic. It's possible that the writers were simply trolling all pro-blood magic players.The fact that she doesn't become an abomination is a miracle by itself.

Blood magic has an inherent escalation to evil. By researching blood magic you quickly reach the inevitable conclusion: if you want to cast more powerfull spells, you need more blood. Using your own blood is incredibly innefficient; as anyone who donated blood can tell you, you'll need between hours to days to recover from casting a spell - much worse than using standard casting, where you usually recover your strength in minutes. using someone else's blood is much more efficient; you get more "juice" (pun intended), and don't need a long recovery time. It's only a matter of time before you sacrifice hundreds of slaves so you could invade the maker golden city. It's always the end result, people just walk it in a different pace, and most encounter "speed bumps" in the way like templars or simply the fact that sacrificing hundreds of people is extremely expansive, and incredibly complicated ordeal. And pretty much everyone will be trying to stop you; wehter it's for the altruistic reason of stopping the slaughter, or merely the competition wanting to deny you that power.

It's like the argument of "guns don't kill people. people kill people". Sure, the reasoning may true; doesn't mean you should be handing out machine guns in the street.

I disagree that researching (and using) blood magic means that any mage doing so will inevitably decide to use more and more blood to cast more and more spells.  This entire argument assumes that the only reason a mage would ever use blood magic would be for power's sake alone, and also implies an addictive quality.  I don't see this as the inevitable conclusion.  Not all mages lust for power, and not everyone who uses magic automatically seeks out more and more powerful spells. 

Believing this requires a belief that all people, no matter their personality or belief system, ultimately want power and upon having a taste of it will always seek more and more of it.

I'm not saying that blood magic isn't dangerous or that there isn't potential for abuse; nor am I saying that no mages would ever be tempted or outright corrupted by the potential for more and greater power.  But I don't see this as the inevitable conclusion of each individual mage exposed to it--not all mages want to cast powerful spells for no greater purpose than casting powerful spells: for mages who prefer to use their magic for beneficial reasons and not just for power's sake, see Wynne, or Irving, or Bethany.  And rest assured that there are more than just three total mages in the entirety of Thedas who feel this way.

It would have to be exercised with caution and wisdom, but, say you're a mage in the midst of battle and you've run outof lyrium.   Are you obligated to let your life be forfeit rather than slice into your own palm to save yourself?  Or to save someone else?  

If you're researching a technique, and you're not trying to make it more powerful or efficient... than what exactly are you doing? It's like a automobile company that only changes the aesthetic design every year without tweaking its frame or engine.

"Potential for abuse"? Really? 100% of the blood mages we encounter are sociopaths; not all are neccessarily violent sociopaths (though they are the vast majority), but all are sociopath.

Mages don't "need" lyrium to cast spells...

[The Elder King]

Solmanian wrote...



If you're researching a technique, and you're not trying to make it more powerful or efficient... than what exactly are you doing? It's like a automobile company that only changes the aesthetic design every year without tweaking its frame or engine.

"Potential for abuse"? Really? 100% of the blood mages we encounter are sociopaths; not all are neccessarily violent sociopaths (though they are the vast majority), but all are sociopath.

Mages don't "need" lyrium to cast spells...

Merrill and Jowan weren't sociopaths. If you consider Finn a blood mage, he wasn't either. Malcolm Hawke was technically a blood mage, and he wasn't a sociopath.
And I think that not every evil blood mage, or (blood mage who did terrible things) are sociopaths. Zathrian wasn't a sociopaths. Orsino became completely mad during the last part of the game, but he wasn't a sociopath.

Modifié par hhh89, 07 mai 2013 - 05:53 .

[Nefla]

I was sympathetic towards mages until DA2 where every single one you meet is a one dimensional psycho who tries to kill you as soon as you meet, even if you're trying to help them. The only mage in the whole game who is a normal person is Bethany and she may be dead.

[Fallstar]

Nefla wrote...

I was sympathetic towards mages until DA2 where every single one you meet is a one dimensional psycho who tries to kill you as soon as you meet, even if you're trying to help them. The only mage in the whole game who is a normal person is Bethany and she may be dead.

That's a result of the game needing cool enemies for you to fight. Same reason most of the Templars you meet are abusive lunatic psychos. Ignore most of it. I think the mage's tower in ferelden is a better example of how things normally operate. Ignoring the rampant demonic incursion.

[Nefla]

DuskWarden wrote...

Nefla wrote...

I was sympathetic towards mages until DA2 where every single one you meet is a one dimensional psycho who tries to kill you as soon as you meet, even if you're trying to help them. The only mage in the whole game who is a normal person is Bethany and she may be dead.

That's a result of the game needing cool enemies for you to fight. Same reason most of the Templars you meet are abusive lunatic psychos. Ignore most of it. I think the mage's tower in ferelden is a better example of how things normally operate. Ignoring the rampant demonic incursion.

Yeah, DA2 was poorly written and makes me hate everyone I used to be sympathetic towards.

[LPPrince]

The Ferelden Circle was fine. Now thanks to Captain Terrorism, every Circle ever is gonna be filled with death and brutality.

Even if everything goes back to normal eventually, there's ONE mage who my opinion of has definitely changed on(since Awakening) and might not change again going forward.

[Hazegurl]

Solmanian wrote...
If you're researching a technique, and you're not trying to make it more powerful or efficient... than what exactly are you doing? It's like a automobile company that only changes the aesthetic design every year without tweaking its frame or engine.

"Potential for abuse"? Really? 100% of the blood mages we encounter are sociopaths; not all are neccessarily violent sociopaths (though they are the vast majority), but all are sociopath.

Mages don't "need" lyrium to cast spells...

Right,

Reminds me of a saying "Any ahole can have children, doesn't mean that every ahole should have children."

Just
because responsible blood mages exists does not mean that the practice
should be cosigned for everyone. The majority of mages using blood magic were either insane or became insane afterwards and what is the point of studying any type of magic that you can't enhance to learn its full potential? Seems like a complete waste of time, so if anyone is devoting their time to studying blood magic then I would seriously wonder how far are they willing to take it cause you can't go too far without lots of blood and suffering.

[Medhia Nox]

@hhh89: You're right - they're all pathological narcissists. Which is actually far more dangerous than a sociopath.

Not unlike how it would seem most mage supporters on these boards would become.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 mai 2013 - 09:00 .

[The Elder King]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@hhh89: You're right - they're all pathological narcissists. Which is actually far more dangerous than a sociopath.

Not unlike how it would seem most mage supporters on these boards would become.

:huh:Sorry, but what do you mean with narcissist? I associate the term generally with  a person being obssessed by his/her beauty, and it would obviously not fit those mages.  If you mean that they believe that they're super awesome becaouse of their magic, or something similar, I don't think none of the mages I named fit this criteria (at least a pathological sense).
Though I'm probably not understanding what you're meaning, so if you elaborate I can understand your point.

Modifié par hhh89, 07 mai 2013 - 09:17 .

[Dave of Canada]

DuskWarden wrote...

That's a result of the game needing cool enemies for you to fight. Same reason most of the Templars you meet are abusive lunatic psychos. Ignore most of it. I think the mage's tower in ferelden is a better example of how things normally operate. Ignoring the rampant demonic incursion.

Seriously, Meredith should've been the last boss if you were pro-mage and Orsino should've been the last boss if you were pro-Templar. None of that red lyrium crap.

Shame it's going to be brought back up in DA:I and probably make even more people insane.

[LPPrince]

Dave of Canada wrote...

and probably make even more people insane.

Cullen lol

[Dave of Canada]

LPPrince wrote...

Cullen lol

I'm envisioning Cullen being mutated into a gigantic abomination leading an army of red lyrium-warped Templar, proclaiming to the heavens that mages aren't people.












Yep.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 mai 2013 - 09:26 .

[Silfren]

Solmanian wrote...
If you're researching a technique, and you're not trying to make it more powerful or efficient... than what exactly are you doing? It's like a automobile company that only changes the aesthetic design every year without tweaking its frame or engine.

"Potential for abuse"? Really? 100% of the blood mages we encounter are sociopaths; not all are neccessarily violent sociopaths (though they are the vast majority), but all are sociopath.

Mages don't "need" lyrium to cast spells...

Seriously? 

One, it simply is not true that every blood mage we meet is a sociopath.  Merrill, Alain, Jowan, Zathrian, Avernus, Orsino...all these mages, and more, practiced blood magic, and of them, only one actually comes near to the definition of sociopathy: Avernus, but we don't know him well enough to truly label him as such.  The fact that he can be convinced that he was wrong actually points against his being a sociopath. 

Going on, I didn't refer to researching a technique, but researching blood magic.  You can be researching the subject for more reasons than simply trying to improve the technique, or application, of it.  You could simply be trying to better understand how it works, etc.  There is always more to research than simply trying to increase your own power.  There are a ton of reasons to do more research into blood magic, none of which are malign. 

Taking the attitude that there's no reason to ever explore blood magic for any reason, on the claim that to do so can ONLY inevitably lead to wanting to hurt others to increase your power, this is how societies stagnate.  Refusing to do ANY research for fear of its potentially dangerous application is extremely short-sighted.

[Silfren]

Solmanian wrote...
Mages don't "need" lyrium to cast spells...

...They do if they're expected not to resort to their own blood if they run out of mana.

[LobselVith8]

Solmanian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think some people would prefer to vilify blood magic rather than acknowledge that it's not inherently evil. They act like the abuses of this specific school performed by the Magisters should condemn all blood magic. There are Grey Wardens and apostates (like Merrill) who haven't used it for malicious purposes.

The only cannonical grey warden practicing blood magic is the guy that summonedan army of demons to overthrow the rightfull king of fereldan, and got pretty much every warden but him killed in the process. And oh yeh, he also turtured and killed a ****load of wardens in the hopes of creating a taint-based magic (similar to what darkspawn are using).

It's mentioned by Duncan that some Grey Wardens use blood magic to combat the darkspawn (in the Magi Origin), and The Warden can explicitly state that the order doesn't prohibit the use of blood magic during the events of Warden's Keep. It's not as though Avernus is the only Grey Warden to use blood magic throughout the history of Thedas.

What you fault Avernus for is his use of demonology, but even his Commander of the Grey thought it was a necessary move at the time. Also, you seem to omit the fact that the "rightful King" was a tyrant. Arland was said to lead a reign of terror as King, which caused some of the banns to approach Sophia Dryden (a Grey Warden who was the leader of the nation's faction) to remove Arland from power.

As for Avernus' research, it wasn't pretty. Neither is the Anvil of the Void. Both were aimed at dealing with the darkspawn, who threaten all known civilization. And the Wardens are supposed do whatever is necessary to stop the Blight.

Solmanian wrote...

Merril is a showcase of an impossibly naive approach to blood magic. It's possible that the writers were simply trolling all pro-blood magic players.The fact that she doesn't become an abomination is a miracle by itself.

This is as accurate as your account of Sophia's rebellion against the tyrant Arland; which is to say, it couldn't be more factually inaccurate if that was your intention. Merrill demonstrates her intellect time and again, showing her adept handling of magic, her ability to tell whether or not Keran was possessed, distinquishing the nature of the Profane Abomination, her proficiency with blood magic, and her reconstruction of ancient elven technology that baffled even the greatest minds of the Imperium.

Solmanian wrote...

Blood magic has an inherent escalation to evil.

Which is disproven by the facts, since we have examples of blood mages who aren't inherently evil throughout the narratives.

Solmanian wrote...

By researching blood magic you quickly reach the inevitable conclusion: if you want to cast more powerfull spells, you need more blood. Using your own blood is incredibly innefficient; as anyone who donated blood can tell you, you'll need between hours to days to recover from casting a spell - much worse than using standard casting, where you usually recover your strength in minutes. using someone else's blood is much more efficient; you get more "juice" (pun intended), and don't need a long recovery time. It's only a matter of time before you sacrifice hundreds of slaves so you could invade the maker golden city. It's always the end result, people just walk it in a different pace, and most encounter "speed bumps" in the way like templars or simply the fact that sacrificing hundreds of people is extremely expansive, and incredibly complicated ordeal. And pretty much everyone will be trying to stop you; wehter it's for the altruistic reason of stopping the slaughter, or merely the competition wanting to deny you that power.

Which is disproven by Jowan dedicating his life to helping protect the refugees from the darkspawn if The Warden spares his life, and Merrill using blood magic for several years without abusing her abilities.

Solmanian wrote...

It's like the argument of "guns don't kill people. people kill people". Sure, the reasoning may true; doesn't mean you should be handing out machine guns in the street.

There's no "reasoning" to your line of thought. We have example after example that disproves your vilification of blood magic.

[LPPrince]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Cullen lol

I'm envisioning Cullen being mutated into a gigantic abomination leading an army of red lyrium-warped Templar, proclaiming to the heavens that mages aren't people.

Yep.

Ewwwwwww

[BouncyFrag]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Cullen lol

I'm envisioning Cullen being mutated into a gigantic abomination leading an army of red lyrium-warped Templar, proclaiming to the heavens that mages aren't people.












Yep.

Plausible...

[LPPrince]

loooooooool

Dr. Mancullen is quite appropriate

[In Exile]

hhh89 wrote...
Merrill and Jowan weren't sociopaths. If you consider Finn a blood mage, he wasn't either. Malcolm Hawke was technically a blood mage, and he wasn't a sociopath.

And I think that not every evil blood mage, or (blood mage who did terrible things) are sociopaths. Zathrian wasn't a sociopaths. Orsino became completely mad during the last part of the game, but he wasn't a sociopath.

Jowan was an idiot. If anything, he showed that a stupid mage without blood magic can do a lot more harm than an intelligent blood mage (cf. Avernus). 

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for Avernus' research, it wasn't pretty. Neither is the Anvil of the Void. Both were aimed at dealing with the darkspawn, who threaten all known civilization. And the Wardens are supposed do whatever is necessary to stop the Blight.

Avernus's research was meant to deal with the demons in the Keep. It's why he focused on the taint, because blood magic was not especially effective against demons. What made his experiment (allegedly) immortal was all the fact that he was experimenting on people against their will. 

 and her reconstruction of ancient elven technology that baffled even the greatest minds of the Imperium.

It also baffled her mind, since she never got it to work. Not to say that Merrill wasn't quite intelligent. But making it look like an Eluvian without getting it to do anythig of note isn't proof she did anything with it.

[Chiramu]

I think that Tevinter mage is pretty cool I would support him if he doesn't turn out to be a total d-bag. Haven't seen too much of him yet so I can't make my opinion of his character.

If we are not in Tevinter though I probably would not be supporting mages only because I don't support the Grand Enchanter and her inability to ask the mages what they want. She is fighting for what she wants, not what all mages want. For that I dislike her. It's the same as Anders in the end of DA2, they do it for their sake and they make excuses to justify their actions.

[The Elder King]

In Exile wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Merrill and Jowan weren't sociopaths. If you consider Finn a blood mage, he wasn't either. Malcolm Hawke was technically a blood mage, and he wasn't a sociopath.

And I think that not every evil blood mage, or (blood mage who did terrible things) are sociopaths. Zathrian wasn't a sociopaths. Orsino became completely mad during the last part of the game, but he wasn't a sociopath.

Jowan was an idiot. If anything, he showed that a stupid mage without blood magic can do a lot more harm than an intelligent blood mage (cf. Avernus). 

I agree completely, but that wasn't my point. Solmanian said that every blood mages we encountered were sociopaths, which is wrong. My point was showing blood mages that aren't sociopaths, not mages that didn't cause harm.
Though it's worth saying that the problems Jowan caused were unrelated to his blood magic.

Modifié par hhh89, 07 mai 2013 - 11:47 .

[In Exile]

hhh89 wrote...
I agree completely, but that wasn't my point. Solmanian said that every blood mages we encountered were sociopaths, which is wrong. My point was showing blood mages that aren't sociopaths, not mages that didn't cause harm.
Though it's worth saying that the problems Jowan caused were unrelated to his blood magic.

I'm not disagreeing. I just thought it was relevant that all of the actual cluster**** of problems that Jowan created were due entirely to him not being the sharpest knife in the kitchen drawer and had nothing at all to do with his blood magic.