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[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Jowan lied; that's the point. He wanted to run away and have a life with Lily, who he was deeply in love with. He felt inferior to the mage protagonist, who was a prodigy and Irving's "star pupil", which is why he learned blood magic to become a better mage. He was jealous, but blood magic didn't turn him evil. Nor did blood magic make Merrill evil, as she never abused her abilities.

What do you base that on? My understanding was that Jowan was terrified of being made Tranquil, and that the delay that he was talking to you about re: the Harrowing actually went back further than his acquisition of blood magic, which he allegedly 'dabbled' in. 

Zathrian specifically cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter.

He cursed their descendants for all time. What Zathrian did more horrible that what was inflicted on him. But that doesn't mean that it was blood magic that was responsible, in the sense that it was just what enabled the scale of descruction. Zathrian's pscyhe broke. 

Of course, you can argue that blood magic is dangerous because it enables this kind of destruction, but that's a very different argument from saying that Zathrian was a sociopath.

I think the point is that Orsino used blood magic once (because he seemed to miraculously remember a complex ritual he read about years ago that can clearly ony be performed once), but it wasn't the reason he lost his sanity.

Orisone went bonkers when Meredith slaughtered everyone he loved, and he condoned what Stich-the-Dead Mom-Killer was doing. Orisono's not a moral person. But, like Zathrian, the effect is BM, not the cause.

Xilizhra wrote...
To be precise, this is a consequence of Justice's possession. He's not all that against it in Awakening.

He has the typical line against it, but the game acknowldges that you can make him a BM (unlike Wynne, who you can also make a BM). But I wouldn't use that gameplay nod as proof anymore than I would use the fact you can make Wynne a BM in DA:O proof she condones BM (when she clearly doesn't). 

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Blood magic is certainly open to abuse, but so is political power and the misuse of deadly weapons. We see how Arl Howe abused his power to massacre humans and elves, to torture people for his own amusement, and to rob from the treasury while the nation was nearly broke, in the middle of a civil war, and dealing with the threat of the Fifth Blight. There's no reason to single out blood magic. Even religious authority can be abused by malevolent people, and it can bring suffering to countless people over the centuries.

But we believe in fettering all of that as part of a just society. No one argues that political power should be unrestrained (that's why we have a constitutional system with checks and balances). No one believes that deadly weapons or their use should be unfettered (well, aside from the US, to an extent - which is why most countries ban them outright or allow their ownership under very limited circumstances). 

If you grant that blood magic is like political power, then you have to grant that its use has to be restricted in in a measure proportionate to the harm that it can inflict. 

Asinine writing did. We can clearly see that Merrill uses blood magic for nearly a decade, but doesn't abuse her powers, even against those who have been cruel to her for years (like Fenris and Anders).

If Merrill assaulted either Fenris or Anders for being dicks, she would be a loon. This is the very kind of thing that makes someone a violent nutbag, i.e., attacking (or worse) others for being mean. 

Blood magic doesn't turn people evil. Period. Even the plethora of insane and stupid mages in Dragon Age II couldn't contest this fact. And there's a reason mages in Thedas use it - from the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic to give them an edge against the greatest threat to all life on the planet, to the apostates who use blood magic because templars can nullify their powers otherwise.

It depends on what you mean by turn people evil. Certainly, someone with the powers of a BM could easily go down the moral slide until crossing over the moral event horizon, and the enabling cause could easily be that power. It's not that using BM once makes you evil like a flip in alignment, but the kind of power it endows is easily open to abuse. It goes back to the political analogy - it's not something that someone should be entitled to use without restrictions. 

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jowan lied; that's the point. He wanted to run away and have a life with Lily, who he was deeply in love with. He felt inferior to the mage protagonist, who was a prodigy and Irving's "star pupil", which is why he learned blood magic to become a better mage. He was jealous, but blood magic didn't turn him evil. Nor did blood magic make Merrill evil, as she never abused her abilities.

What do you base that on? My understanding was that Jowan was terrified of being made Tranquil, and that the delay that he was talking to you about re: the Harrowing actually went back further than his acquisition of blood magic, which he allegedly 'dabbled' in.

Jowan's dialogue, if The Warden executes him. He says, "Why did I turn to it in the first place? You'll laugh at me. It's because... because of you, really. I have to admit, I've always been a little jealous of your ability. I knew I'd never be as great a mage as you are. In a moment of weakness... I thought blood magic would give me more power... more control. Isn't that stupid?"

He also adds that he felt it was wrong, and he decided never to use it again. Then Lily came into his life, and he fell in love. He mentions he was happy for a short time, and that blood magic was behind him. Then he adds that they learned about the Rite. What's odd is that, given the apparent length of time between Jowan's initial use of blood magic, meeting and falling in love with Lily, and eventually learning about the Rite of Tranquility through his clandestine lover, it's possible there was no actual witness that Jowan was a blood mage.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zathrian specifically cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter.

He cursed their descendants for all time. What Zathrian did more horrible that what was inflicted on him. But that doesn't mean that it was blood magic that was responsible, in the sense that it was just what enabled the scale of descruction. Zathrian's pscyhe broke. 

Of course, you can argue that blood magic is dangerous because it enables this kind of destruction, but that's a very different argument from saying that Zathrian was a sociopath.

I was addressing that Zathrian didn't curse every single human in the Brecillian Forest.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the point is that Orsino used blood magic once (because he seemed to miraculously remember a complex ritual he read about years ago that can clearly ony be performed once), but it wasn't the reason he lost his sanity.

Orisone went bonkers when Meredith slaughtered everyone he loved, and he condoned what Stich-the-Dead Mom-Killer was doing. Orisono's not a moral person. But, like Zathrian, the effect is BM, not the cause.

I agree about Orsino's despair, given his line: "Why don't they just drown us as infants? Why wait? Why give us the illusion of hope?" However, I don't think Orsino condoned what Quentin did, since the First Enchanter says: "Quentin's research was too evil, too dangerous, so I put it aside."

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To be precise, this is a consequence of Justice's possession. He's not all that against it in Awakening.

He has the typical line against it, but the game acknowldges that you can make him a BM (unlike Wynne, who you can also make a BM). But I wouldn't use that gameplay nod as proof anymore than I would use the fact you can make Wynne a BM in DA:O proof she condones BM (when she clearly doesn't). 

It's a little difference in that Anders actually references it in dialogue.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 mai 2013 - 03:27 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Jowan's dialogue, if The Warden executes him. He says, "Why did I turn to it in the first place? You'll laugh at me. It's because... because of you, really. I have to admit, I've always been a little jealous of your ability. I knew I'd never be as great a mage as you are. In a moment of weakness... I thought blood magic would give me more power... more control. Isn't that stupid?"

Ah, I see. That's a fair point. I never executed Jowan, so I never saw that dialogue.

What's odd is that, given the apparent length of time between Jowan's initial use of blood magic, meeting and falling in love with Lily, and eventually learning about the Rite of Tranquility through his clandestine lover, it's possible there was no actual witness that Jowan was a blood mage.

It isn't clear what Jowan actually did to use blood magic, but I'd imagine that the evidence against him would be that he studied it, which would presumably be enough to make prove the capital offence under what passes for Chantry law.

I was addressing that Zathrian didn't curse every single human in the Brecillian Forest.

Well, I think that's a mixed bag. He ended up cursing a very sizeable group of humans who weren't involved in his suffering. 

I agree about Orsino's despair, given his line: "Why don't they just drown us as infants? Why wait? Why give us the illusion of hope?" However, I don't think Orsino condoned what Quentin did, since the First Enchanter says: "Quentin's research was too evil, too dangerous, so I put it aside."

He was aware of it, and he didn't do anything about it. That's condoning by definition (i.e., overlooking). 

See e.g. 

condone [kənˈdəʊn]vb (tr)1. to overlook or forgive (an offence)2. (Law) Law (esp of a spouse) to pardon or overlook (an offence, usually adultery)

It's a little difference in that Anders actually references it in dialogue.

But what Anders references is the gameplay feature. He only says it if you actually make him a BM. It's hard to read that into his character, given the context. 

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic is certainly open to abuse, but so is political power and the misuse of deadly weapons. We see how Arl Howe abused his power to massacre humans and elves, to torture people for his own amusement, and to rob from the treasury while the nation was nearly broke, in the middle of a civil war, and dealing with the threat of the Fifth Blight. There's no reason to single out blood magic. Even religious authority can be abused by malevolent people, and it can bring suffering to countless people over the centuries. 

You're ignoring scope in that comparison.  For religious authority to be abused, it takes an enormous amount of conversion, in addition to no reform or reinterpretation occuring during that time, in addition to the setting being appropriate for religious leaders to hold such power.   Hundreds of years of werewolf problems takes one pissed off mage, and can only be fixed by getting that mage to remove it.  Heck, the slaughtering and undead resurrection of a village takes one mistake from a mage kid, where it would require an armed force if ordered by a Lord.

We have most of the continent following the Andrastian Chantry because one man held the values of a particular Cult of the Maker. We have hundreds of years of problems from the Chantry controlled Circles because one man created his own anti-mage religion. And all it takes for an Exalted March is one Divine giving the word, or for the Right of Annulment, one Grand Cleric. I've seen the scope of that comparison in full effect already, but that's not the discussion I was having. The conversation was about how blood magic isn't inherently evil or automatically corrupting for the mage who uses it.

We have blood magic providing the means of creating members of an order who can stop the darkspawn through the Joining Ritual, as well as permamently kill the Archdemon to sunder the corrupted Old God's control over the darkspawn. We have Grey Wardens using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Blood magic is responsible for saving the world.

It can also be as harmless as phylacteries (aside from the purpose they are used for) and Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian of the Dragonbone Wastes.

BlueMagitek wrote...

So :
Blood Magic = Bomb
Religious Authority, Political Power = Gun
Weapons = Knife

All of them can be misused, but one of them stands to cause significant more damage than others with less precision. 

All it took was one order from Meredith to execute an entire Circle, and the same happened in the Circle of Rivain when the foreign templars arrived. I'd put 'religious authority' higher on the list when this is possible by people who have religious authority.

[The Elder King]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@hhh89: Pathological narcissism is the belief that the person is "special" and has a special purpose.

- Jowan believes that his love is above the rules. He believes that, no matter how inferior he truly is (and he is), that he deserves the right to be considered an equal by using an illegal method of magic. Then he goes on an atonement quest he designs for himself to absolve himself of what he perceives as his "crimes" ((which is really just failing Lily - not doing anything illegal)).

Only when confronted by the Warden does he admit that everything he's done so far is utterly self-serving. But even then - he goes one to play a martyr as some sort of mystical physician.

- Anders is the absolute worst. He believes that he alone can save the world from the terrible oppression of "his people". He uses a clinic as a mask for a terrorist cell which he then uses to obliterate a good part of Kirkwall (I won't argue the point - watch the video. The streets are on fire after the blast.)

And then, unlike Jowan, he embraces his martyr complex and welcomes the coming destruction in his little demented speech at the end of the game.

- Merrill's narcissism is in her messiah complex for "her people".  (again - a narcissist only has empathy with people he/she believes are "theirs" ) She doesn't care who she hurts in her cause to advance the elven situation. Even twisting it so far as to put an entire group of Dalish in danger.

At her best - she's a singularly minded fanatical cause head who believes in her own messiah complex.

- Zathrian, Uldred, Avernus and Orsino are all variations of the same principle.

====

The best mages are dullards in Thedas.

- First Enchanter Irving never says a single intelligent thing about magic (though I suppose he "tries to" at the beginning.)

- Wynne is "wise" but still an imbecile when it comes to magic. When you meet her in Ostagar and talk about the most basic concepts of magic... she basically says: "F--k if I know, but it's something to think about."

- Don't get my started on Senior Enchanter's Leorah and Sweeny.

- Flemeth's too busy being boorishly obtuse and using her magic for sexy gilf makeovers.

- And Morrigan is close to Wynne's opposite. She's got some magical theory to actually talk about - but she's just a craven beast who's main concern is survival.

I understand your point, though I don't agree. I don't think that the mages I posted believed themselves to be special. Some of them have huge flaws, but I don't think they are pathological narcissists. Merrill is obsessed (too obsessed) to find ways to restore elven lore and magic and help her people, Jowan is an idiot with an inferiority complex that wanted to be free (we don't know if only because of Lily), Orsino cared about his fellow mages, and Zathrian was obssessed by his revenge and the death of his family that didn't care about the humas and elves (the ones that were innocents) that suffered because of his curse. Some of them are selfish, but I don't see how they thought that they were special/having a special purpose. The only one who is on the border is Merrll, and I believe that it's more an obsession of her (probably caused by the fact that she coldn't leave with her clan and was hurt) that herself believing to be "special".
I don't understand why you posted all those examples of mages though (and you talked about the last 4-5 mages not about their narcissism, but their idiocy/selfishness, which aren't  mental issues). I never said those weren't sociopaths, or that they weren't pathclogical narcissists (other than I was talking about blood mages, not mages in general). Plus, you talked about Flemeth, who might not even be human anymore.
Other than that, you didn't talk about Malcolm, so even if you were right about the rest, not all blood mages (or mages in general) are sociopaths/pathological narcisissists.

[Silfren]

CrystaJ wrote...

To be honest I kind of like these complicated moral dilemmas lol. I think finding a way to nullify magic altogether, without turning all mages tranquil, would probably be the easiest solution. Never gonna happen cuz that'd make the mage class pointless (which is by far the most fun imo), but yeah.

...No, it would never happen because it would completely ruin the story.  Easy solutions like that one are cheap and banal and the antithesis of compelling stories.  No writer worth their salt would resort to it.

I think some people forget that there's more to Bioware games than the gameplay, and there's FAR more reasons for the writers not to do something than because it would screw with some gameplay mechanic. 

Modifié par Silfren, 09 mai 2013 - 11:43 .

[Xilizhra]

The only one who is on the border is Merrll, and I believe that it's more an obsession of her (probably caused by the fact that she coldn't leave with her clan and was hurt) that herself believing to be "special".

Merrill's not even close to borderline. Overly focused on one item, maybe, but it has nothing to do with any supposed personal specialness.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic is certainly open to abuse, but so is political power and the misuse of deadly weapons. We see how Arl Howe abused his power to massacre humans and elves, to torture people for his own amusement, and to rob from the treasury while the nation was nearly broke, in the middle of a civil war, and dealing with the threat of the Fifth Blight. There's no reason to single out blood magic. Even religious authority can be abused by malevolent people, and it can bring suffering to countless people over the centuries. 

You're ignoring scope in that comparison.  For religious authority to be abused, it takes an enormous amount of conversion, in addition to no reform or reinterpretation occuring during that time, in addition to the setting being appropriate for religious leaders to hold such power.   Hundreds of years of werewolf problems takes one pissed off mage, and can only be fixed by getting that mage to remove it.  Heck, the slaughtering and undead resurrection of a village takes one mistake from a mage kid, where it would require an armed force if ordered by a Lord.

We have most of the continent following the Andrastian Chantry because one man held the values of a particular Cult of the Maker. We have hundreds of years of problems from the Chantry controlled Circles because one man created his own anti-mage religion. And all it takes for an Exalted March is one Divine giving the word, or for the Right of Annulment, one Grand Cleric. I've seen the scope of that comparison in full effect already, but that's not the discussion I was having. The conversation was about how blood magic isn't inherently evil or automatically corrupting for the mage who uses it.

We have blood magic providing the means of creating members of an order who can stop the darkspawn through the Joining Ritual, as well as permamently kill the Archdemon to sunder the corrupted Old God's control over the darkspawn. We have Grey Wardens using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Blood magic is responsible for saving the world.

It can also be as harmless as phylacteries (aside from the purpose they are used for) and Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian of the Dragonbone Wastes.

Divine Ambrosia II attempted to call an Exalted March on the Grand Cathedral occupied by mages, but apparently her word was not enough.

Finn's ritual is still not blood magic.

And Blood Magic is inherently harmful, since blood magic will always make the mage more attractive to demons, and thus a greater danger to everyone around him.

[Xilizhra]

And Blood Magic is inherently harmful, since blood magic will always make the mage more attractive to demons, and thus a greater danger to everyone around him.

That depends entirely on the mage. The demons can't force the mage into anything under the vast majority of circumstances.

[EmperorSahlertz]

He is still a larger target. Which means the chances of the mage failing, rises.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

That depends entirely on the mage. The demons can't force the mage into anything under the vast majority of circumstances.

There's different interpretations on this still... there's some indication that they can indeed force themselves onto mages, but nothing that truly proves this. There's also no compelling proof that they cannot force themselves onto people and have to trick/torture people into submission.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He is still a larger target. Which means the chances of the mage failing, rises.

Well, yes. Also, ordinary peoples' chances of killing both themselves and large numbers of others increase dramatically when they learn how to drive.

There's different interpretations on this still... there's some
indication that they can indeed force themselves onto mages, but nothing
that truly proves this. There's also no compelling proof that they
cannot force themselves onto people and have to trick/torture people
into submission.

They can, but only in times of great emotional distress in a thin Veil.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 mai 2013 - 01:09 .

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

They can, but only in times of great emotional distress in a thin Veil.

What about Uldred? Niall's description of Uldred's possession sounded like he was forcefully possessed.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

They can, but only in times of great emotional distress in a thin Veil.

I wonder if a thin veil is required, but it's something we'll find out eventually I guess.

Regardless, any blood mage that kills lots of people for his/her spells is going to thin the veil regardless and runs a great risk of running afoul of hubris... So that could explain why powerful blood mages more often than not run afoul of possession... consumed by their pride/greed and intentionally thinning the veil.
But that is abusing blood magic in the first place.

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They can, but only in times of great emotional distress in a thin Veil.

What about Uldred? Niall's description of Uldred's possession sounded like he was forcefully possessed.

He was panicking at the time, due to his original plan being ruined by Wynne.

[Silfren]

StreetMagic wrote...

It's all about one's Willpower (the Harrowing indicates as much). I think mages under stress can lose their will and open themselves up fully to a demon's control.

That said, I think both good and "bad" mages can lose their will. While an otherwise cantankerous mage like Morrigan would not succumb to being a abomination too easily, just because her Will is so strong. She's ruggedly independent.

edit: Funnily, high Willpower means you generally don't need blood to fuel your spells. Those with high will are mana dependent mages anyways. They're not going to find much use in going the blood route to begin with.

This is a gameplay mechanic, is it not?  It can't really be applied to the lore; from a lore standpoint willpower would factor into how well a mage could withstand temptation, etc, not how much total mana they could access.  And it certainly doesn't make sense that mages with high willpower would be dependent on mana and not find any use for blood.  Mana is not infinite: used constantly without time to replenish, it will eventually run out, and at that point, blood would be required to keep casting without a break to let your mana naturally replenish (this assumes of course that no lyrium is at hand).  And of course there is the fact that blood does make spells that much more potent. 

[azarhal]

StreetMagic wrote...

It's all about one's Willpower (the Harrowing indicates as much). I think mages under stress can lose their will and open themselves up fully to a demon's control.

That said, I think both good and "bad" mages can lose their will. While an otherwise cantankerous mage like Morrigan would not succumb to being a abomination too easily, just because her Will is so strong. She's ruggedly independent.

edit: Funnily, high Willpower means you generally don't need blood to fuel your spells. Those with high will are mana dependent mages anyways. They're not going to find much use in going the blood route to begin with.

The Willpower stat also increase magic resistance.

Also, I would says that any weak willed person is a possible "container". Torture being the best artificial way of breaking ones will...

[Plaintiff]

StreetMagic wrote...
So Will plays a part in resisting Fade spirits too (something Anders didn't have apparently. The way he got taken over by Justice is probably similar to letting your guard down with demons).

Not really. Anders made no effort whatsoever to resist Justice. They bonded willingly because Justice saw the plight of the mages and wanted to help Anders fight back.

"Spirits" typically have no interest in possessing people. The mage would be the one convincing the spirit to join with them, a reversal of how demonic possession works.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 mai 2013 - 02:17 .

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only one who is on the border is Merrll, and I believe that it's more an obsession of her (probably caused by the fact that she coldn't leave with her clan and was hurt) that herself believing to be "special".

Merrill's not even close to borderline. Overly focused on one item, maybe, but it has nothing to do with any supposed personal specialness.

Justo to clarify, I didn't mean in the borderline of sanity, I meant in the interpretation. Some people could interpretate Merrill's intention and dialogues as if she thinks she's special.
I disagree, but I understand why some people might think that way.

[MissOuJ]

Sir JK wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That depends entirely on the mage. The demons can't force the mage into anything under the vast majority of circumstances.

There's different interpretations on this still... there's some indication that they can indeed force themselves onto mages, but nothing that truly proves this. There's also no compelling proof that they cannot force themselves onto people and have to trick/torture people into submission.

Isn't this the exact reason Keran doesn't become an Abomination? He explicitly says he resisted and didn't take anything they (and by "they" I'm assuming he means demons) offered. Granted, he's not a mage, and demons might have to go an extra mile to possess mundanes, but then again, if demons could just hop a ride whenever they wanted, there'd be no point to Harrow mages - it would be conterproductive, even, just lining up future possession victims if powerful enough demon could just take the reigns no matter how strong the mage.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 09 mai 2013 - 03:23 .