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[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

He was panicking at the time, due to his original plan being ruined by Wynne.

I doubt it, because Uldred already had a contingency plan in place. Why would he panic to the point of being possessed if he prepared for the worst possible outcome of the meeting?

Plus if panicking was all that it took for a mage to be possessed due to a lowered mental resistance, how in the heck are the Circle mages going to survive the mental stress, and pressures of a probable war with the Templars?

[Sir JK]

MissOuJ:

Yes, you have a point. As you point out you can resist demons, suggesting that it's a matter of will. Yet we also see mages all over that suddenly just flip with no explanation or indication that they were being targetted. Mostly in stressful or emotional situations. While it could be explained that they reach for anything and accept a demons offer, that sounds like a very strange way to save your own life.

I don't really have a good answer I fear. I suspect that demons prefer manipulating their victims, it's easier for them and less risk of the body being damaged. It's also possible not all demons are strong enough to pull it off. That could certainly explain a great deal.

Or perhaps it is strictly a matter of will... but rather than not inviting them it's a constant struggle to remain focused and refuse them... and that mages that's panicking or in a lot of emotional turmoil simply fails to muster the mental strength to say no? Thus the demon do force themselves onto the victim, but a strong will can fend them off...

Just a guess mind...

[MissOuJ]

Sir JK wrote...

MissOuJ:

Yes, you have a point. As you point out you can resist demons, suggesting that it's a matter of will. Yet we also see mages all over that suddenly just flip with no explanation or indication that they were being targetted. Mostly in stressful or emotional situations. While it could be explained that they reach for anything and accept a demons offer, that sounds like a very strange way to save your own life.

I don't really have a good answer I fear. I suspect that demons prefer manipulating their victims, it's easier for them and less risk of the body being damaged. It's also possible not all demons are strong enough to pull it off. That could certainly explain a great deal.

Or perhaps it is strictly a matter of will... but rather than not inviting them it's a constant struggle to remain focused and refuse them... and that mages that's panicking or in a lot of emotional turmoil simply fails to muster the mental strength to say no? Thus the demon do force themselves onto the victim, but a strong will can fend them off...

Just a guess mind...

According to the lore, it seems to depend on the demon which possesses the mage, actually.

So it seems to me that the weaker demons (Rage, Hunger etc) would "seize the opportunity" when they sense a mage who is in great distress (afraid, desperate) and become abominations (Olivia, the random mage woman at the end of Act 3 in DA2, the mages in Circle Tower), whereas stronger demons (Desire, Pride) like cooking up long-running scemes (Allure being a very good example: it seems like she had the Harrimanns under her heel for quite a while) which would not work without willing participants. At least, this is how I've come to understand it. If this is the case, then forcible possession could be fought - in theory at least.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 09 mai 2013 - 03:57 .

[Sir JK]

Oh I see. Thanks StreetMagic.

[The Hierophant]

StreetMagic wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
Plus if panicking was all that it took for a mage to be possessed due to a lowered mental resistance, how in the heck are the Circle mages going to survive the mental stress, and pressures of a probable war with the Templars?

Lol, many of them don't, I think. It's only a war, because it just takes a handful of mages to cause a lot of damage.

Agreed, but i think it's weak to chalk up Uldred's possession as being mentally vunerable from just panicking.

[Senya]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Even Merrill admits to being aware that she is in more danger because of her blood magic after she succumbs to the Pride Demon in Feynriel's Nightmare.

Being a blood mage had nothing to do with the sheer stupidity of everyone (but Anders) betraying Hawke in a matter of seconds in "Night Terrors". Asinine writing did. We can clearly see that Merrill uses blood magic for nearly a decade, but doesn't abuse her powers, even against those who have been cruel to her for years (like Fenris and Anders).

I am talking about the conversation afterwards. If you pick the diplomatic route, it goes something like this:

Hawke: You already are in more danger than most...

Merrill: You mean the blood magic? I know. I have to be extra careful.

This is Merrill, who believes blood magic is like any other type of magic and hasn't lived under the Chantry. You can dismiss this as shoddy writing, but then, anyone can do that if the game contradicts their theories.

And Anders doesn't resist. Justice does.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have most of the continent following the Andrastian Chantry because one man held the values of a particular Cult of the Maker. We have hundreds of years of problems from the Chantry controlled Circles because one man created his own anti-mage religion. And all it takes for an Exalted March is one Divine giving the word, or for the Right of Annulment, one Grand Cleric. I've seen the scope of that comparison in full effect already, but that's not the discussion I was having. The conversation was about how blood magic isn't inherently evil or automatically corrupting for the mage who uses it.

We have blood magic providing the means of creating members of an order who can stop the darkspawn through the Joining Ritual, as well as permamently kill the Archdemon to sunder the corrupted Old God's control over the darkspawn. We have Grey Wardens using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Blood magic is responsible for saving the world.

It can also be as harmless as phylacteries (aside from the purpose they are used for) and Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian of the Dragonbone Wastes.

All it took was one order from Meredith to execute an entire Circle, and the same happened in the Circle of Rivain when the foreign templars arrived. I'd put 'religious authority' higher on the list when this is possible by people who have religious authority.

Oh so now you want to keep on a topic?  Fine then.

The only reason that blood magic is needed in the joining is because Magic ****ed Thedas with the Darkspawn.  You know, that immortal race of creatures that live forever with their own source of magic from the Taint who can only reproduce through taint exposure? 

When the vast, vast majority fo examples of blood magic are for diabolical and nefarious purposes, you can point to three examples all you'd like and say "See, see! This isn't bad!", but you can point to that heroic awakened Darkspawn and it still is bad.

Yes.  A gun is capable of killing people.  But magic just blew the **** out of Kirkwall.  Magic can influence the minds of political or religious leaders, summon demons, tear the veil, open up a hole to the Fade; it isn't my fault they've been using bombs ineffectively. 

[JoltDealer]

StreetMagic wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
Plus if panicking was all that it took for a mage to be possessed due to a lowered mental resistance, how in the heck are the Circle mages going to survive the mental stress, and pressures of a probable war with the Templars?

Lol, many of them don't, I think. It's only a war, because it just takes a handful of mages to cause a lot of damage.

Agreed, but i think it's weak to chalk up Uldred's possession as being mentally vunerable from just panicking.

Well, if we really dig into it, he's pretty complicated. Look at him at Ostagar. He's a scrawny little dude who gets shut down by the Revered Mother in an instant. His whole life was probably like that.

I  mean, he was probably dealing with feeling inferior his whole life. That isn't his fault, but probably doesn't do any good for his mental health. He was like one of those mass shooting guys who got bullied too much, and then went postal.

Falling apart like he did is weak though. Lots of mages deal with crap, and lots of people get bullied. They don't all lose their minds (in the real world or the dragon age world). Irving, for example, found a way to play politics and keep his cool. He doesn't cave in to power plays. He's smarter than that. And as you can see in the final battle, Irving also shows a fierce display of willpower. Uldred can't get the best of him. Just like Templars can't get the best of Irving either. So yeah, compared to him, Uldred's pretty weak. That's probably what it takes to be a real mage who can actually contribute to society. Anyone else is a liability.

Actually, a little known fact about the Columbine shooters is that they weren't bullied.  They were bullies themselves. They liked to pick on other kids and call them names.  The shooting was actually a result of one kid hating everybody else and his friend being so stupid he went along with it.

As for demons and mages, it goes back to a saying my father and grandfather used to have:  "You shouldn't respect power, you should fear power.  Especially if you're the one who has it."  A lot of mages who become possessed either have no idea the demon is there or they underestimate the demon's power, assuming they're in complete control.  All it takes is that one moment where you think, "Yeah I totally have this under control," and you can become an abomination.

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Being a blood mage had nothing to do with the sheer stupidity of everyone (but Anders) betraying Hawke in a matter of seconds in "Night Terrors". Asinine writing did. We can clearly see that Merrill uses blood magic for nearly a decade, but doesn't abuse her powers, even against those who have been cruel to her for years (like Fenris and Anders). 

I am talking about the conversation afterwards. If you pick the diplomatic route, it goes something like this:

Hawke: You already are in more danger than most...

Merrill: You mean the blood magic? I know. I have to be extra careful.

Avernus was a blood mage, and he was able to resist the onslaught of demons for centuries. We also know that the lore reads that some mages turn to blood magic because it's tied to the physical, not to the Fade: "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

almostinsane99 wrote...

This is Merrill, who believes blood magic is like any other type of magic and hasn't lived under the Chantry. You can dismiss this as shoddy writing, but then, anyone can do that if the game contradicts their theories.

It's fairly easy when the quest in question has Hawke's companions attempting to murder him after a few seconds of a demon making them an offer, when this wasn't possible in Origins or Awakening.

almostinsane99 wrote...

And Anders doesn't resist. Justice does. 

Anders and Justice became symbiotically intertwined the moment they shared the same body, to the point where Anders confides that he doesn't know where he ends and Justice begins.

[Silfren]

StreetMagic wrote...

Silfren wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

It's all about one's Willpower (the Harrowing indicates as much). I think mages under stress can lose their will and open themselves up fully to a demon's control.

That said, I think both good and "bad" mages can lose their will. While an otherwise cantankerous mage like Morrigan would not succumb to being a abomination too easily, just because her Will is so strong. She's ruggedly independent.

edit: Funnily, high Willpower means you generally don't need blood to fuel your spells. Those with high will are mana dependent mages anyways. They're not going to find much use in going the blood route to begin with.

This is a gameplay mechanic, is it not?  It can't really be applied to the lore; from a lore standpoint willpower would factor into how well a mage could withstand temptation, etc, not how much total mana they could access.  And it certainly doesn't make sense that mages with high willpower would be dependent on mana and not find any use for blood.  Mana is not infinite: used constantly without time to replenish, it will eventually run out, and at that point, blood would be required to keep casting without a break to let your mana naturally replenish (this assumes of course that no lyrium is at hand).  And of course there is the fact that blood does make spells that much more potent. 

It's not just a gameplay mechanic. It's part of the lore too. Take the Harrowing again. Resisting the demon in the test revolves around Will in the dialogue. Additionally, you can get Valour's staff without even dueling him, just by a Will check. When he realizes you won't succumb to any of his requests, he calls you insolent, but that would be exactly what was needed to defeat the Demon. So Will plays a part in resisting Fade spirits too (something Anders didn't have apparently. The way he got taken over by Justice is probably similar to letting your guard down with demons).

Er, no.  What you first referred to was willpower in regards to mana, and that's what I addressed.  To bring up willpower and resisting demonic temptation is changing the subject.  Using willpower in this context is lore based on actual reality, after all:  We're ALWAYS using willpower when we resist something, anything.  Again, I was referring to your assertions about mana, willpower, and blood, which IS a gameplay mechanic and nothing more. 

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2013 - 01:38 .

[Xilizhra]

The Hierophant wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

He was panicking at the time, due to his original plan being ruined by Wynne.

I doubt it, because Uldred already had a contingency plan in place. Why would he panic to the point of being possessed if he prepared for the worst possible outcome of the meeting?

Plus if panicking was all that it took for a mage to be possessed due to a lowered mental resistance, how in the heck are the Circle mages going to survive the mental stress, and pressures of a probable war with the Templars?

The contingency plan involved active demon summoning all over the Circle. It's also entirely possible that he was willingly possessed and didn't realize how unpleasant it would be until after it was happening (as Uldred is not a warped fleshbag like other unwilling abominations, and is instead human like Connor).

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Avernus was a blood mage, and he was able to resist the onslaught of demons for centuries. We also know that the lore reads that some mages turn to blood magic because it's tied to the physical, not to the Fade: "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

Avernus was also very well versed in demonology, as well, which is different from blood magic per se (not clear if it's technically a subspecialty). 

It's fairly easy when the quest in question has Hawke's companions attempting to murder him after a few seconds of a demon making them an offer, when this wasn't possible in Origins or Awakening.

There are lots of justifications - the companions in DA:O were extraordinary people, the demons involved were different (desire and pride, instead of sloth). In fact, we see the sloth demon in DA2 bargain with you, and Merrill encourages you to listen to it.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

There are lots of justifications - the companions in DA:O were extraordinary people, the demons involved were different (desire and pride, instead of sloth). In fact, we see the sloth demon in DA2 bargain with you, and Merrill encourages you to listen to it. 

You can gain information from demons without capitulating to them, which is Merrill's point. You can gain information from the Profane Abomination, and then attack it the moment it provides you with the information you need, and Merrill supports this course of action. The same is true for the Sloth Demon.

[Xilizhra]

Avernus was also very well versed in demonology, as well, which is different from blood magic per se (not clear if it's technically a subspecialty).

So you're saying that the best way to deal with demons is to know a lot about them and study them closely?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You can gain information from demons without capitulating to them, which is Merrill's point. You can gain information from the Profane Abomination, and then attack it the moment it provides you with the information you need, and Merrill supports this course of action. The same is true for the Sloth Demon.

Well, of course. The point isn't that demons can somehow automatically "ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL" of any person they interact with, but rather that Merrill has repeatedly established that she's willing to listen to demons. 

So the fact that she listens to the pride demon is not out of character. The only issue you can actually have is that what she betrayed her companions for is disproportionate, because she should have known better that what she was being offered was complete BS. In that respect, the scene totally failed (in terms of how it was written). 

But that doesn't mean that it isn't in character for Merrill to, for the right price, agree to kick her companions out of the Fade with no lasting harm and turn some complete stranger (Feynriel) over to the demons in return for something very precious to her (e.g. more lore related to the Eluvian). 

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
So you're saying that the best way to deal with demons is to know a lot about them and study them closely?

Yes, exactly. Ideally in controlled settings, at sites separate from the Circles themselves where the Veil is strong. The Chantry's method of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LA-LA-LA-LA" is beyond moronic in this respect. 

Modifié par In Exile, 10 mai 2013 - 02:20 .

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So you're saying that the best way to deal with demons is to know a lot about them and study them closely?

Yes, exactly. Ideally in controlled settings, at sites separate from the Circles themselves where the Veil is strong. The Chantry's method of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LA-LA-LA-LA" is beyond moronic in this respect. 

Much like their other methods. We agree at last. Although I'm not sure how much research could really be conducted with a strong Veil.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have most of the continent following the Andrastian Chantry because one man held the values of a particular Cult of the Maker. We have hundreds of years of problems from the Chantry controlled Circles because one man created his own anti-mage religion. And all it takes for an Exalted March is one Divine giving the word, or for the Right of Annulment, one Grand Cleric. I've seen the scope of that comparison in full effect already, but that's not the discussion I was having. The conversation was about how blood magic isn't inherently evil or automatically corrupting for the mage who uses it.

We have blood magic providing the means of creating members of an order who can stop the darkspawn through the Joining Ritual, as well as permamently kill the Archdemon to sunder the corrupted Old God's control over the darkspawn. We have Grey Wardens using blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Blood magic is responsible for saving the world.

It can also be as harmless as phylacteries (aside from the purpose they are used for) and Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian of the Dragonbone Wastes.

All it took was one order from Meredith to execute an entire Circle, and the same happened in the Circle of Rivain when the foreign templars arrived. I'd put 'religious authority' higher on the list when this is possible by people who have religious authority.

Oh so now you want to keep on a topic?  Fine then.

The only reason that blood magic is needed in the joining is because Magic ****ed Thedas with the Darkspawn.  You know, that immortal race of creatures that live forever with their own source of magic from the Taint who can only reproduce through taint exposure?  

A religious claim made by the Andrastian Chantry, that used their religion to subjugate mages under their rule for nearly a millennia. The dwarven records of the first darkspawn and Corypheus' own admission call into question the validity of the Chantry's claims on this matter.

BlueMagitek wrote...

When the vast, vast majority fo examples of blood magic are for diabolical and nefarious purposes, you can point to three examples all you'd like and say "See, see! This isn't bad!", but you can point to that heroic awakened Darkspawn and it still is bad.

That doesn't make blood magic evil; that simply means there are many people who have used it for malevolent purposes, like the Tevinter mages.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes.  A gun is capable of killing people.  But magic just blew the **** out of Kirkwall.  Magic can influence the minds of political or religious leaders, summon demons, tear the veil, open up a hole to the Fade; it isn't my fault they've been using bombs ineffectively. 

Magic and the components of a bomb blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, which is why Anders asks Hawke to gather the ingredients in the first place. Magic can also help people save the world, protect men, women, and children from dangerous foes, rescue individuals from the brink of death, and cure ailments and diseases.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Much like their other methods. We agree at last.

Like I said before - we don't actually really disagree on anything broad. The forum is just an echo chamber. If 2/3rds of the forum was pro-templar and anti-elf, we'd all just argue on the same side. 

Although I'm not sure how much research could really be conducted with a strong Veil.

We don't know that the strength of the Veil makes it difficult to intentionally draw in a demon, right? All we know is that the Veil keeps demons from crossing it over at their whim.

What a demon research centre has to do is be able to draw demons in but not let them escape back unless killed, and otherwise not let demons willing cross into our world. This lets us effectively experiment on demons. 

[Xilizhra]

We don't know that the strength of the Veil makes it difficult to intentionally draw in a demon, right? All we know is that the Veil keeps demons from crossing it over at their whim.

What a demon research centre has to do is be able to draw demons in but not let them escape back unless killed, and otherwise not let demons willing cross into our world. This lets us effectively experiment on demons.

Right, but drawing demons in weakens the Veil. You'd need templarish wards around the place, probably, and those we can't get until the templars are crushed and remade.
Also, note that this will require blood magic.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A religious claim made by the Andrastian Chantry, that used their religion to subjugate mages under their rule for nearly a millennia. The dwarven records of the first darkspawn and Corypheus' own admission call into question the validity of the Chantry's claims on this matter.

That doesn't make blood magic evil; that simply means there are many people who have used it for malevolent purposes, like the Tevinter mages.

Magic and the components of a bomb blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, which is why Anders asks Hawke to gather the ingredients in the first place. Magic can also help people save the world, protect men, women, and children from dangerous foes, rescue individuals from the brink of death, and cure ailments and diseases.

If you can stop spewing the same Chantry nonsense (as I did not mention the Chantry) for a moment and read my text, you will see that, no, this is looking at it from an outsider perspective, and, to an extent, confirmed by Legacy and by Awakening, where we have the taint coming from an area located in the Fade and the Darkspawn capable of transporting you to the walls of the Black City. Tell me how the Darkspawn came to be if not by magic?  The Dwarves are known to erase things from the Memories.  Please state where these records are said to be before the Magisters attempted to storm the Golden City.

So, to recap, there's this thing that is created and strengthened from harm (WoT), but that doesn't make it evil.  The vast, vast majority of its users are evil.  That doesn't make it evil.  There are cases where it is useful, but that does not excuse its origins, how it is powered, or what it has done. 

Did I ever say that magic couldn't be used for good?  How about you actually respond to my arguments for once.  It has the most capacity for harm, if only because it has the capability to influence the other powers, in addition to everything else that goes along with magic.