731 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

So, to recap, there's this thing that is created and strengthened from harm (WoT), but that doesn't make it evil. The vast, vast majority of its users are evil. That doesn't make it evil. There are cases where it is useful, but that does not excuse its origins, how it is powered, or what it has done.

Incorrect. When its power is used voluntarily (and it's extremely easy to heal the standard wounds made, mind), there's nothing wrong about it at all, and the applications are far too many and useful to throw away entirely.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

So, to recap, there's this thing that is created and strengthened from harm (WoT), but that doesn't make it evil. The vast, vast majority of its users are evil. That doesn't make it evil. There are cases where it is useful, but that does not excuse its origins, how it is powered, or what it has done.

Incorrect. When its power is used voluntarily (and it's extremely easy to heal the standard wounds made, mind), there's nothing wrong about it at all, and the applications are far too many and useful to throw away entirely.

Because you had some difficulty.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, to recap, there's this thing that is created and strengthened from harm (WoT), but that doesn't make it evil. The vast, vast majority of its users are evil. That doesn't make it evil. There are cases where it is useful, but that does not excuse its origins, how it is powered, or what it has done.

Incorrect. When its power is used voluntarily (and it's extremely easy to heal the standard wounds made, mind), there's nothing wrong about it at all, and the applications are far too many and useful to throw away entirely.

Because you had some difficulty.

The point being that it doesn't matter. Its origins and past history are irrelevant to its morality, and its power source is easily nonevil if used properly.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

The point being that it doesn't matter. Its origins and past history are irrelevant to its morality, and its power source is easily nonevil if used properly.

Oh good, an actual argument.

It depends on your morals if those are irrelevant, and that is the crux of the argument.  Utilitarian, perhaps, but given that the only Blood Mage who has stopped being a blood mage is Malcom Hawke (and he was forced into it by the GW), I am going to take the stance that Blood Magic is addictive to use and this will lead to seeking the blood of others at some point.

If you have other examples of mages who stop being a blood mage (not including Anders, who lost the spec between games), feel free to list them.  No PCs, no characters you assigned the Spec.

[Xilizhra]

It depends on your morals if those are irrelevant, and that is the crux of the argument. Utilitarian, perhaps, but given that the only Blood Mage who has stopped being a blood mage is Malcom Hawke (and he was forced into it by the GW), I am going to take the stance that Blood Magic is addictive to use and this will lead to seeking the blood of others at some point.

In other words, making **** up. Why would you want to just stop being a blood mage if you seek it out in the first place? It's far too useful, unless external circumstances forced you into it like they did Malcolm. What's far more important is if you don't go bad just by using blood magic, from which we see Malcolm, Merrill, Jowan (who was never actually evil, and eventually goes to helping refugees with his magic), and Alain. Also, Idunna stops being a blood mage if you let her live.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

In other words, making **** up. Why would you want to just stop being a blood mage if you seek it out in the first place? It's far too useful, unless external circumstances forced you into it like they did Malcolm. What's far more important is if you don't go bad just by using blood magic, from which we see Malcolm, Merrill, Jowan (who was never actually evil, and eventually goes to helping refugees with his magic), and Alain. Also, Idunna stops being a blood mage if you let her live.

Oh?  You've named a total of three people who have stopped using blood magic.

Merrill uses blood magic in combat, despite claiming to only have want of it for cleansing her precious Mirror.  Jowan still uses it to fuel his spells (otherwise he would not be able to help refugees at all, as he has no Fade talent at all from my interpretation of his confession to the Mage Warden). 

Heck, you make the argument for me.  It is too useful to use.  It would just be so much better if you could have just a little bit more blood without having to worry about yourself.  Think of the power in a drop of blood... what could a person do with an ocean of it? 

[Lee80]

The mages deserve just as much freedom as everyone else in the game world. Every being in that universe has the power to destroy their world if you read between the lines. Warriors and Rouges can become abominations almost as easily as mages. Look at all the trouble Logahin caused in the first game. He's not a mage or even all that powerful of a warrior. Darkness dwells in all hearts, and if one is hell bent on doing evil...it will be so. Anyone who gets out of line has to be stopped...regardless of mage status or not.

[Xilizhra]

Oh? You've named a total of three people who have stopped using blood magic.

That wasn't even my freaking argument, I was saying that "stopping blood magic" doesn't matter and is a useless metric.

Heck, you make the argument for me. It is too useful to use. It would just be so much better if you could have just a little bit more blood without having to worry about yourself. Think of the power in a drop of blood... what could a person do with an ocean of it?

Well, yes. You could also just kill the people who annoy you and never worry about them again, but most people don't do that. Effectively, by criminalizing blood magic, all you've done is ensure that only criminals have it, which will naturally skew the morals you see.

[addiction21]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In other words, making **** up. Why would you want to just stop being a blood mage if you seek it out in the first place? It's far too useful, unless external circumstances forced you into it like they did Malcolm. What's far more important is if you don't go bad just by using blood magic, from which we see Malcolm, Merrill, Jowan (who was never actually evil, and eventually goes to helping refugees with his magic), and Alain. Also, Idunna stops being a blood mage if you let her live.

Oh?  You've named a total of three people who have stopped using blood magic.

Merrill uses blood magic in combat, despite claiming to only have want of it for cleansing her precious Mirror.  Jowan still uses it to fuel his spells (otherwise he would not be able to help refugees at all, as he has no Fade talent at all from my interpretation of his confession to the Mage Warden). 

Heck, you make the argument for me.  It is too useful to use.  It would just be so much better if you could have just a little bit more blood without having to worry about yourself.  Think of the power in a drop of blood... what could a person do with an ocean of it? 

I think you left out the long history of bloodmagic doing harm and a certain empire that was almost built on the use of blood magic.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

That wasn't even my freaking argument, I was saying that "stopping blood magic" doesn't matter and is a useless metric.

Well, yes. You could also just kill the people who annoy you and never worry about them again, but most people don't do that. Effectively, by criminalizing blood magic, all you've done is ensure that only criminals have it, which will naturally skew the morals you see.

I can never tell with you, as you always try to avoid the question.  Now you expect me to read your mind?  Tsk tsk.  And I see you don't even wish to refute my claim, tsk.

You're seriously using a gun control argument here?  Hahahahahahahahahaha!  Please, come back with something original.  But I'll humor you and give you a response because you made me chuckle. 
Yes, those Qunari are just swimming in rogue blood mages, subverting the Qun and ruining everyone's day.  Truly, truly they are in trouble from the criminal blood mages.  Though, some blood magic is legalized there, utilized as dogs of the military (or the state, whichever they fall under).  Just like weapons.  How about that?

[BlueMagitek]

addiction21 wrote...
I think you left out the long history of bloodmagic doing harm and a certain empire that was almost built on the use of blood magic.

Come on now, Tevinter is just misunderstood.  Tevinter wouldn't have enslaved the elves, sunk Arlathan and created a mage oligarchy based on abilities and willingness to cause horrendous pain to others if it wasn't for that awful Chantry and preaching that people should be neither enslaved nor sacrificed.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, those Qunari are just swimming in rogue blood mages, subverting the Qun and ruining everyone's day. Truly, truly they are in trouble from the criminal blood mages. Though, some blood magic is legalized there, utilized as dogs of the military (or the state, whichever they fall under). Just like weapons. How about that?

I'm fairly sure they don't legalize blood magic. The one Saarebas' amulet was a "secret thing" that was never meant to be seen by the eyes of another. However, qunari society is so magically ignorant that no information on blood magic is likely to be found there, so there's no real opportunity to learn it. This is a state impossible to impose on Thedas.

I think you left out the long history of bloodmagic doing harm and a
certain empire that was almost built on the use of blood magic.

Irrelevant to any present uses.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 mai 2013 - 03:40 .

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A religious claim made by the Andrastian Chantry, that used their religion to subjugate mages under their rule for nearly a millennia. The dwarven records of the first darkspawn and Corypheus' own admission call into question the validity of the Chantry's claims on this matter.

That doesn't make blood magic evil; that simply means there are many people who have used it for malevolent purposes, like the Tevinter mages.

Magic and the components of a bomb blew up the Kirkwall Chantry, which is why Anders asks Hawke to gather the ingredients in the first place. Magic can also help people save the world, protect men, women, and children from dangerous foes, rescue individuals from the brink of death, and cure ailments and diseases.

If you can stop spewing the same Chantry nonsense (as I did not mention the Chantry) for a moment and read my text, you will see that, no, this is looking at it from an outsider perspective, and, to an extent, confirmed by Legacy and by Awakening, where we have the taint coming from an area located in the Fade and the Darkspawn capable of transporting you to the walls of the Black City.

You were putting forth the Chantry fable as fact, when the dwarven records of the first darkspawn sightings and Corypheus' own words cast a reat deal of doubt into the validity of their account. Let's not ignore your vilification through invoking an account that comes from the religious teachings of the Andrastian Chantry.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Tell me how the Darkspawn came to be if not by magic?  The Dwarves are known to erase things from the Memories.  Please state where these records are said to be before the Magisters attempted to storm the Golden City.

So your argument is that, since the Chantry fable is the only explanation provided in the Andrastian kingdoms, you're going to act as though their account is fact? You do realize that's illogical.

BlueMagitek wrote...

So, to recap, there's this thing that is created and strengthened from harm (WoT), but that doesn't make it evil.  The vast, vast majority of its users are evil.  That doesn't make it evil.  There are cases where it is useful, but that does not excuse its origins, how it is powered, or what it has done.  

Your speculation on the matter isn't fact. Do you know how many Tevinter mages are blood mages, in comparison to Grey Warden mages and apostates who use blood magic to stay alive? Since you don't, perhaps you should stop acting as though you know most blood mages are evil.

Also, the WoT has references to blood mages who weren't evil, and used blood magic for purposes that weren't malevolent - Tirena of the Rock used her blood magic abilities to defeat invading Qunari during the Steel Age, and the story of Seraphinian, who used blood magic to save his lover Crescens from death by sacrificng his own life so she could live. We also have the examples of Grey Warden mages using blood magic to give them a needed edge against the darkspawn, and Merrill using blood magic for altruistic purposes, without abusing her abilities or misusing them.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Did I ever say that magic couldn't be used for good?  How about you actually respond to my arguments for once.  It has the most capacity for harm, if only because it has the capability to influence the other powers, in addition to everything else that goes along with magic.  

The point that blood magic can be used for good already illustrates that it isn't inherently evil, or automatically corrupting.

[addiction21]

Xilizhra wrote...
Irrelevant to any present uses.

No it is not because you have been presented time and time gain with how relevant the danger of it is.

The problem (and ya I will say it) you are as much of a mindless zealot for mages and the worst Templar. desperately putting forth the few exceptions where blood magic MIGHT have come to no harm but are more then willing to damn all the chantry for the same actions of a part.

Short story is that you are a hypocrite. You would be happy for mages to wield the same (if not worse) powers then the chantry just because they are mages and the chanty is "evil" and can only be that way.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In other words, making **** up. Why would you want to just stop being a blood mage if you seek it out in the first place? It's far too useful, unless external circumstances forced you into it like they did Malcolm. What's far more important is if you don't go bad just by using blood magic, from which we see Malcolm, Merrill, Jowan (who was never actually evil, and eventually goes to helping refugees with his magic), and Alain. Also, Idunna stops being a blood mage if you let her live.

Oh?  You've named a total of three people who have stopped using blood magic.

Merrill uses blood magic in combat, despite claiming to only have want of it for cleansing her precious Mirror.

Merrill learned blood magic to cleanse the shard, because she lacked the right amount of lyrium necessary to cleanse it with ordinary magic. And I'm not sure how defeating bandits, darkspawn, monsters, and dragons with blood magic makes her a bad person.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Jowan still uses it to fuel his spells (otherwise he would not be able to help refugees at all, as he has no Fade talent at all from my interpretation of his confession to the Mage Warden).  

Actually, Jowan's confession is that he stopped using blood magic, met Lily, fell in love, and then learned about the Rite of Tranquility, which calls into doubt whether there were any genuine witnesses to him being a blood mage when you consider the length of time being his initial use of blood magic (and he stopped using it after that), meeting Lily, and then discovering (via his secret lover) that he was going to be made tranquil.

Also, we see Jowan use ordinary spells. It's part of the training an apprentice receives. And Jowan's comments were that he wasn't as good as the progidy that is the mage protagonist - "Irving's star pupil".

BlueMagitek wrote...

Heck, you make the argument for me.  It is too useful to use.  It would just be so much better if you could have just a little bit more blood without having to worry about yourself.  Think of the power in a drop of blood... what could a person do with an ocean of it? 

We know there are good blood mages, so I don't see the point to your vilification of blood mages or blood magic.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Right, but drawing demons in weakens the Veil. You'd need templarish wards around the place, probably, and those we can't get until the templars are crushed and remade.

I'm talking in principle here, so the actual logistics is a separate question.

Also, note that this will require blood magic.

I don't think there's anything wrong with blood magic per se. It's just that there's a large difference between, say, a small group of mages knowing how to attract demons with blood and, instead, unregulated access to spells that control minds for any game. It goes back to the point I raised earlier about checks & balances.

And more pragmatically, demons are real and blood is a means to gain power over them. Since demons are, basically, active agents of death and chaos for mortals, finding ways to effectively combat them is just plain smart. 

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, Jowan's confession is that he stopped using blood magic, met Lily, fell in love, and then learned about the Rite of Tranquility, which calls into doubt whether there were any genuine witnesses to him being a blood mage when you consider the length of time being his initial use of blood magic (and he stopped using it after that), meeting Lily, and then discovering (via his secret lover) that he was going to be made tranquil.

Learning blood magic could easily be a crime, and you even in our justice system, you don't need eye-witness testimony to establish an offence per se. 

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...


We know there are good blood mages, so I don't see the point to your vilification of blood mages or blood magic.

We also know there are good Templars and chantry members, so I don't see the point of your vilification of them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, Jowan's confession is that he stopped using blood magic, met Lily, fell in love, and then learned about the Rite of Tranquility, which calls into doubt whether there were any genuine witnesses to him being a blood mage when you consider the length of time being his initial use of blood magic (and he stopped using it after that), meeting Lily, and then discovering (via his secret lover) that he was going to be made tranquil.

Learning blood magic could easily be a crime, and you even in our justice system, you don't need eye-witness testimony to establish an offence per se. 

No, but I fail to see what evidence to a crime like this there could be apart from them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you left out the long history of bloodmagic doing harm and a
certain empire that was almost built on the use of blood magic.

Irrelevant to any present uses.

Except for theirs and Tarohne's.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 mai 2013 - 04:15 .

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

I think you left out the long history of bloodmagic doing harm and a certain empire that was almost built on the use of blood magic. 

I think the long history of the Joining Ritual and the Grey Wardens stopping the Blights and the incursions of the darkspawn would demonstrate that blood magic also has a long history of doing good, despite the times that it has been used for malevolent purposes.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I think you left out the long history of bloodmagic doing harm and a certain empire that was almost built on the use of blood magic. 

I think the long history of the Joining Ritual and the Grey Wardens stopping the Blights and the incursions of the darkspawn would demonstrate that blood magic also has a long history of doing good, despite the times that it has been used for malevolent purposes.

A zealot to the end.

[In Exile]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
No, but I fail to see what evidence to a crime like this there could be apart from them.

It depends on what the Chantry would accept as a burden of proof, and what it considers sufficient evidence as establishing that burden. Circumstantial evidence - that Jowan had access to books related to blood magic, studied from them, had a marked improvement in his spellcasting - could be sufficient to establish the offence of blood magic, and if learning blood magic is an offence, then actually reading books relating to it could be sufficient to making out the claim. 

You can easily imagine that the offence of blood magic is requires just proof of study, with use and mastery presumed.

[lil yonce]

^^The Four Horsemen will ride before Lob admits anything about blood magic or its history is shady.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 10 mai 2013 - 04:38 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think the long history of the Joining Ritual and the Grey Wardens stopping the Blights and the incursions of the darkspawn would demonstrate that blood magic also has a long history of doing good, despite the times that it has been used for malevolent purposes.

That's not how evidence works. The joining proves that a certain very limited, highly regulated and circumscribed application of blood magic has been used to effect a great deal of good. That isn't proof that all blood magic has a long history of doing good.