731 réponses à ce sujet

[Palidane]

I can't believe I'm reading a gun control debate that's actually relevant to Dragon Age.

Anyway, I don't think Blood Magic is inherently evil. I think it's extremely dangerous. If normal magic is a bomb, blood magic is a nuke. We should still research it and develop it, we just have to be careful about who gets their hands on it. Extremely careful.

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think the long history of the Joining Ritual and the Grey Wardens stopping the Blights and the incursions of the darkspawn would demonstrate that blood magic also has a long history of doing good, despite the times that it has been used for malevolent purposes.

That's not how evidence works. The joining proves that a certain very limited, highly regulated and circumscribed application of blood magic has been used to effect a great deal of good. That isn't proof that all blood magic has a long history of doing good. 

Considering that the Joining kills a not-insignifcant number of the people who partake in it, I wouldn't say that it is unequivocally good either.

But past instances of abuse, or potential for abuse, do not make blood magic inherently immoral.

[addiction21]

Palidane wrote...

I can't believe I'm reading a gun control debate that's actually relevant to Dragon Age.

Anyway, I don't think Blood Magic is inherently evil. I think it's extremely dangerous. If normal magic is a bomb, blood magic is a nuke. We should still research it and develop it, we just have to be careful about who gets their hands on it. Extremely careful.

I wanted to say it but I am not even that brazen. Two waffles for you.

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
Considering that the Joining kills a not-insignifcant number of the people who partake in it, I wouldn't say that it is unequivocally good either.

Technically, the Joining kills everyone who partakes in it. The real issue is the Grey Warden's recruiting tactics, and basically refusing to give you a choice once you've actually gotten as far as the Joining. 

When your choice is drink and die or just die, the practical outcome is hard to classify as 'good'. But the Joining itself is just a magical process to create soldiers capable of slaying an archdemon, and in the end I'd argue that this puts it as close to good as something can get in Thedas. 

But past instances of abuse, or potential for abuse, do not make blood magic inherently immoral.

Right. It's a matter of evaluating each application and determing if there's a justified use (relatively, ideally, to some level of regulation). 

Modifié par In Exile, 10 mai 2013 - 04:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Technically, the Joining kills everyone who partakes in it. The real issue is the Grey Warden's recruiting tactics, and basically refusing to give you a choice once you've actually gotten as far as the Joining.

Actually, it doesn't. Avernus was able to hold it off for so long that he would have died of old age long before the Calling itself set in, if he wasn't also extending his regular lifespan. And by that age, dying doesn't really mean that it's "killed" you.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Technically, the Joining kills everyone who partakes in it. The real issue is the Grey Warden's recruiting tactics, and basically refusing to give you a choice once you've actually gotten as far as the Joining.

Actually, it doesn't. Avernus was able to hold it off for so long that he would have died of old age long before the Calling itself set in, if he wasn't also extending his regular lifespan. And by that age, dying doesn't really mean that it's "killed" you.

Eh, Avernus is a very notable exception, though.  Left to its own devices, yes, the Joining does kill you, in the sense that it's become Warden tradition to end your life through the Calling before the taint can turn you into a ghoul. 

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I think you left out the long history of bloodmagic doing harm and a certain empire that was almost built on the use of blood magic. 

I think the long history of the Joining Ritual and the Grey Wardens stopping the Blights and the incursions of the darkspawn would demonstrate that blood magic also has a long history of doing good, despite the times that it has been used for malevolent purposes. 

A zealot to the end.

Because I pointed out the application for blood magic being used for purposes that aren't evil? As I poined out above, the Joining, via the process to create Grey Wardens, who fight against the greatest threat Thedas has ever faced, and are the only ones capable of stopping the Archdemons that threaten all life on the planet.

Also, if you need to resort to name calling, you didn't have much of an argument to begin with.

Youth4Ever wrote...

^^The Four Horsemen will ride before Lob admits anything about blood magic or its history is shady.

Considering I addressed the Tevinter mages, that comment makes no sense. My point is that blood magic is a tool that can be good for good or bad purposes.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So far the only good use of Blood Magic we have seen, is the Phylacteries... The Joinning and Finn's ritual aren't actual blood magic, despite how much you want it to be so.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

They're magic that uses blood, and Finn even notes that the templars would get antsy if they see him using his. (As for the phylacteries, they do the same thing as the magic Finn uses, with the same ingredient. You can't say that one is and one isn't blood magic without citing some material difference, and to the best of my knowledge none has been shown.)

Nor are you counting Jowan's blood ritual in Redcliffe. Yes, the lyrium ritual is a better option if you metagame, but the blood ritual does the same thing that one does. And given that you have to go all the way to Kinloch Hold to get the supplies for the lyrium ritual, the blood ritual takes a fraction of the time. So, since only through metagaming can you be sure that the demon will sit still that whole time...

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 mai 2013 - 09:28 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think the long history of the Joining Ritual and the Grey Wardens stopping the Blights and the incursions of the darkspawn would demonstrate that blood magic also has a long history of doing good, despite the times that it has been used for malevolent purposes.

That's not how evidence works. The joining proves that a certain very limited, highly regulated and circumscribed application of blood magic has been used to effect a great deal of good. That isn't proof that all blood magic has a long history of doing good. 

That's not what he said. He said that blood magic does good and has for a long time, not that all blood magic does good.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm fairly sure they don't legalize blood magic. The one Saarebas' amulet was a "secret thing" that was never meant to be seen by the eyes of another. However, qunari society is so magically ignorant that no information on blood magic is likely to be found there, so there's no real opportunity to learn it. This is a state impossible to impose on Thedas.

Irrelevant to any present uses.

You can learn Blood Magic (and, if certain codexes are to be believed, any form of ancient magic available) from a demon or spirit.  Qunari still dream, they aren't dwarves, and would have access to the creatures.  However, I acknowledge you conceeding the point, if you wish.

Oh no, no it is not.  There's a reason we ban certain medications; even if they can be useful in niche categories, they can do more harm than good elsewhere or cause an addiction.  Perhaps we should just go around giving pregnant women thalidomide?

[Mr.House]

I really hope Titus is not killed in the comic, he would be a great villain for DA3 from a narrative and gameplay point of view. Please don't do it Gaider!

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...
...

So your argument is that, since the Chantry fable is the only explanation provided in the Andrastian kingdoms, you're going to act as though their account is fact? You do realize that's illogical.

Your speculation on the matter isn't fact. Do you know how many Tevinter mages are blood mages, in comparison to Grey Warden mages and apostates who use blood magic to stay alive? Since you don't, perhaps you should stop acting as though you know most blood mages are evil.

Also, the WoT has references to blood mages who weren't evil, and used blood magic for purposes that weren't malevolent - Tirena of the Rock used her blood magic abilities to defeat invading Qunari during the Steel Age, and the story of Seraphinian, who used blood magic to save his lover Crescens from death by sacrificng his own life so she could live. We also have the examples of Grey Warden mages using blood magic to give them a needed edge against the darkspawn, and Merrill using blood magic for altruistic purposes, without abusing her abilities or misusing them.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Did I ever say that magic couldn't be used for good?  How about you actually respond to my arguments for once.  It has the most capacity for harm, if only because it has the capability to influence the other powers, in addition to everything else that goes along with magic.  

The point that blood magic can be used for good already illustrates that it isn't inherently evil, or automatically corrupting.

So, just to get this straight :

• You claim there are dwarvern records that state the darkspawn appeared post-Tevinter invasion of the Fade
• I have asked where this is verified
• You have not responded to this point, instead trying to change the subject.  You do not include Codex entry, developer statement or other source for the lore.
• You do not even attempt to refute the argument I had made connecting the Darkspawn to the Fade.
• You do not offer an alternative to the Darkspawn origin, only dismiss my own because it is connected with the Chantry.
• You want me to take you seriously

I'll humor you one last time.

Oh?  I came to that conclusion after having my doubts about the
Chantry's tale.  However, you are, again, not addressing my points, so
please get along to that.  But please, explain how Coryphy's claims put
doubt on my claim that Tevinter Magisters unleashed the
Blight by invading the Fade?  Also, please offer forth the dates of the
Magister's invasion of the Fade and the Dwarvern accounts.  And, I know
this is difficult, but actually get around to responding to my points
if you can instead of changing the subject to whining about the Chantry.

You know what, fine.  Refute the Chantry's claim.  I have
stated my reasons for coming to that conclusion, you have not refuted
them, you have not offered an alternative explanation, you have simply
mocked them for connection to the Chantry.  If that is the best you
have, please refrain from responding, as your hot air is tearing apart
our precious ozone.

Strong words for one who tends to be incapable of backing up a claim.  
Tevinter Magisters exist in a dog eat dog world where the strongest are respected.  Very much like a certain Morrowind house.  A Magister may not use blood magic, but when blood magic allows manipulation of other people, super powering their own spells, and easily available due to slavery, there's no reason to not make use of it.  In fact, I believe every Tevinter mage we've come across has been a blood mage.
Hell, they drained an ocean of blood from elven slaves.  I know you don't care about non Dalish elves, but there is a significant amount of evidence pointing to mass study and use of blood magic, considering that Kirkwall's tunnels are full of still undiscovered mage archives and labs, where they, again, studied atop an ocean of blood.

So now the Qunari are a great evil that must be destroyed, but Blood Magic is not?  It may as well be a case of evil striking out against evil.
That seems rather neutral, really.  You just transferred one life to another, nothing really gained.
I'm just going to laugh at your interpretation of Merrill, while trying the wipe away the smile of your implication that Avernus' torture of his fellow wardens was a good thing.

Um, a lot of things that are evil, or generally have an immense capacity to go wrong, or are just bad in general, can be used for good.  Just ask Xil for her ideas on the Mass Effect Control ending, or look at how other diseases are used against cancer.   I take it you're completely unfamiliar with the idea of evil against evil.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...


Oh no, no it is not.  There's a reason we ban certain medications; even if they can be useful in niche categories, they can do more harm than good elsewhere or cause an addiction.  Perhaps we should just go around giving pregnant women thalidomide?

Cocaine is one of the more unpleasant things out there, and it's not banned. Nor are all opiates banned, and certain opiates can be even worse. Bad things can accomplish good.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 mai 2013 - 10:18 .

[Mr.House]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...


Oh no, no it is not.  There's a reason we ban certain medications; even if they can be useful in niche categories, they can do more harm than good elsewhere or cause an addiction.  Perhaps we should just go around giving pregnant women thalidomide?

Cocaine is one of the worst things out there, and it's not banned. Bad things can accomplish good.

Go do some cocaine in front of a cop in Canada and see what happens.

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Cocaine is one of the more unpleasant things out there, and it's not banned. Nor are all opiates banned, and certain opiates can be even worse. Bad things can accomplish good.

I will be fair and say drug bans depend on your location, but the point remains.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mr.House wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...


Oh no, no it is not.  There's a reason we ban certain medications; even if they can be useful in niche categories, they can do more harm than good elsewhere or cause an addiction.  Perhaps we should just go around giving pregnant women thalidomide?

Cocaine is one of the worst things out there, and it's not banned. Bad things can accomplish good.

Go do some cocaine in front of a cop in Canada and see what happens.

I meant not completely banned. BlueMagitek's point, as I understand it, was that certain drugs are not used as medicine because they're not worth it, and I pointed out that some of the worse ones have a correct dosage and use.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Cocaine is one of the more unpleasant things out there, and it's not banned. Nor are all opiates banned, and certain opiates can be even worse. Bad things can accomplish good.

I will be fair and say drug bans depend on your location, but the point remains.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie] 

Not really. There's a medical use for at least one substance that is completely and utterly banned in the United States.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 mai 2013 - 10:32 .

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not really. There's a medical use for at least one substance that is completely and utterly banned in the United States.

Perhaps I should have been more specific, then.  There are uses for some banned substances, but they are, as I said, niche, and usually alternatives are sought first.  The drug I listed, thalidomide, has legitimate uses, but it causes birth defects.  So if /when it is used, it is done very strictly. 

And considering I already agreed that there are valid uses for blood magic, I don't see what your complaint is.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And considering I already agreed that there are valid uses for blood magic, I don't see what your complaint is.

Whoops. Misread earlier post. Sorry.

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

And considering I already agreed that there are valid uses for blood magic, I don't see what your complaint is.

Whoops. Misread earlier post. Sorry.

Tis cool.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, it doesn't. Avernus was able to hold it off for so long that he would have died of old age long before the Calling itself set in, if he wasn't also extending his regular lifespan. And by that age, dying doesn't really mean that it's "killed" you.

It's not clear what kind of blood magic Avernus used, whether you have to be a mage to be able to use it, and how easily reproduced it is (for example, we don't know if it required human sacrifice, in the way increasing your constitution required sacrificing the elves during the Alienage quest). 

So I wouldn't say that Avernus is an example of the Joining not being a death sentence. 

[In Exile]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
That's not what he said. He said that blood magic does good and has for a long time, not that all blood magic does good.

"Blood magic" = "all blood magic" unless specified otherwise. It's the general category. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Except that he specified that some blood magic is used wrong. So the point is that blood magic can be used to do good, not that it only does good.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They're magic that uses blood, and Finn even notes that the templars would get antsy if they see him using his. (As for the phylacteries, they do the same thing as the magic Finn uses, with the same ingredient. You can't say that one is and one isn't blood magic without citing some material difference, and to the best of my knowledge none has been shown.)

Nor are you counting Jowan's blood ritual in Redcliffe. Yes, the lyrium ritual is a better option if you metagame, but the blood ritual does the same thing that one does. And given that you have to go all the way to Kinloch Hold to get the supplies for the lyrium ritual, the blood ritual takes a fraction of the time. So, since only through metagaming can you be sure that the demon will sit still that whole time...

I wouldn't call the phylacteries blood magic, but we got WoG saying that they are, so they are. However, merely blood being involved in the spell DOES NOT constitute blood magic. To an ignorant's eye, Finn's ritual might seem like blood magic, and a Templar might consider it close enough to blood magic to not take any chances, that still DOES NOT make it blood magic. Blood Magic are spells that require the blood to fuel the spell, and they gain power through the suffering and death they cause, that doesn't fit Finn's ritual, ergo it can't be blood magic, same goes for the joinning.

Also, Jowan's ritual is not blood magic either. He uses blood magic to power the spell, but the spell itself is the exact same as the one used to send the mages into the Fade, just normally powered with Lyrium instead of blood. So no, Jowan's ritual is NOT an example of the good blood magic can bring.

[In Exile]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Except that he specified that some blood magic is used wrong. So the point is that blood magic can be used to do good, not that it only does good.

And like I said, that's garbled nonsense. "Blood magic" isn't a unitary category. Moreover, he didn't say blood magic can be used to do good. He said "the long history of the Joining Ritual and the Grey Wardens stopping the Blights and the incursions of the darkspawn would demonstrate that blood magic also has a long history of doing good".

A unitary example doesn't prove that an entire general category is good.