731 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

So, just to get this straight :

• You claim there are dwarvern records that state the darkspawn appeared post-Tevinter invasion of the Fade
• I have asked where this is verified
• You have not responded to this point, instead trying to change the subject.  You do not include Codex entry, developer statement or other source for the lore.
• You do not even attempt to refute the argument I had made connecting the Darkspawn to the Fade.
• You do not offer an alternative to the Darkspawn origin, only dismiss my own because it is connected with the Chantry.
• You want me to take you seriously

I'll humor you one last time.

First, the dwarvens were the first ones who encountered the darkspawn, and the player can read about the type of darkspawn who were initially encountered by the dwarves from the dwarven codex entries in Origins. This point has been brought up in discussions that addressed the possible inception of the darkspawn. There's no mention in those entries of any darkspawn like Corypheus among their number when the dwarven scholar addresses the initial encounters with the darkspawn.

As the Shaper Czibor wrote, "The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage."

Second, I pointed out that there's no evidence that the darkspawn were created by magic. We don't even know if Corypheus and his fellow Magisters were the first darkspawn, because his dialogue suggests the City was already Black, which opens up the possibility others could have preceded them. You were talking as though the Chantry fable was a fact, and I disputed that, because we don't know what the truth is.

Third, I don't need to provide an alternative theory to the inception of the darkspawn. And I can dismiss you acting as though the Chantry fable is fact because there's no evidence to prove that it is.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Oh?  I came to that conclusion after having my doubts about the Chantry's tale.  However, you are, again, not addressing my points, so please get along to that.  But please, explain how Coryphy's claims put doubt on my claim that Tevinter Magisters unleashed the Blight by invading the Fade?  Also, please offer forth the dates of the Magister's invasion of the Fade and the Dwarvern accounts.  And, I know this is difficult, but actually get around to responding to my points if you can instead of changing the subject to whining about the Chantry.

I addressed that what the Andrastian Chantry claims isn't indisputable fact. I've also addressed how Corypheus and the other Magisters might not have been the first darkspawn.

BlueMagitek wrote...

You know what, fine.  Refute the Chantry's claim.  I have stated my reasons for coming to that conclusion, you have not refuted them, you have not offered an alternative explanation, you have simply mocked them for connection to the Chantry.  If that is the best you have, please refrain from responding, as your hot air is tearing apart our precious ozone.

I've pointed out that the Chantry's claim is simply that - a claim. Not indisputable fact. That's why I initially brought up that it's a fable, when you were writing as though it was an uncontested fact.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Strong words for one who tends to be incapable of backing up a claim.

That isn't really contributing anything to this discussion.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Tevinter Magisters exist in a dog eat dog world where the strongest are respected.  Very much like a certain Morrowind house.  A Magister may not use blood magic, but when blood magic allows manipulation of other people, super powering their own spells, and easily available due to slavery, there's no reason to not make use of it.  In fact, I believe every Tevinter mage we've come across has been a blood mage.

The WoT already addresses that not all Tevinter mages are the same. We knew that earlier than the book, however, from Fenris' story about the early attempt to abolish slavery.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Hell, they drained an ocean of blood from elven slaves.  I know you don't care about non Dalish elves, but there is a significant amount of evidence pointing to mass study and use of blood magic, considering that Kirkwall's tunnels are full of still undiscovered mage archives and labs, where they, again, studied atop an ocean of blood.

Try to conduct yourself as an adult the next time you chose to speak with me, because the insults are getting tiring. If you aren't capable of keeping your composure, simply don't respond.

As for the rest of your comments, you realize the Enigmas of Kirkwall pointed out that Kirkwall is a den of insanity because it's literally a Hellmouth? Not to mention the effect Corypheus was having on everyone nearby while he was imprisoned, as the Legacy codex entries make note.

BlueMagitek wrote...

So now the Qunari are a great evil that must be destroyed, but Blood Magic is not?  It may as well be a case of evil striking out against evil.

Are you anthropomorphizing blood magic with that comment? It's a tool; it isn't sentient. It isn't inherently evil. The Qunari, on the other hand, are a different matter, and the people who refused to convert - who are forced to work to death in the camps or the mines - can attest to how immoral the Qun really is.

BlueMagitek wrote...

That seems rather neutral, really.  You just transferred one life to another, nothing really gained.
I'm just going to laugh at your interpretation of Merrill, while trying the wipe away the smile of your implication that Avernus' torture of his fellow wardens was a good thing.

My comments about Merrill are based on what we see in the narrative, as opposed to your vilification of her simply because she's a Dalish blood mage.

And Avernus' research is an example of how pragmatic the Wardens can be. What Avernus did hurts and killed others, but his research could also unlock the key to stopping the darkspawn by unlocking the secrets of the taint, giving the Wardens an edge in their neverending war against the darkspawn.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Um, a lot of things that are evil, or generally have an immense capacity to go wrong, or are just bad in general, can be used for good.  Just ask Xil for her ideas on the Mass Effect Control ending, or look at how other diseases are used against cancer.   I take it you're completely unfamiliar with the idea of evil against evil. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

I doubt it. I'm sure Xil is aware of the Chantry of Andraste fighting the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

...[*]

I'm asking for a date.  I want, Year X -> Dwarves spotted Darkspawn in the Deep Roads.  Year Y -> Magisters invaded the Fade.  Given that we know the Memories to be lacking (the Profane), I will not accept a claim from one Shaper.   If you cannot provide that, you cannot claim it as evidence that Darkspawn preceeded the Magisters.

No evidence?  Go back and read what I posted earlier.  There are connections between the Taint, the Fade, and magic. 

"I cannot provide an alternative so I'm just going to dismiss the one in the game that is a reasonable assumption because it is biased against my chosen peoples".  Okay, good to know.

And yet, you do not put forth any other idea on how the Darkspawn may have been created, your 'refutation' ignores the events of Awakening and goes on a single interpretation of Coryph's dialog. 

In fact, if you look back a few pages, you'll see that my initial claim was not the Chantry's but that the Darkspawn were created by magic.  Perhaps it is from lyrium (if lyrium can make the Gauntlet possible, who knows what it is capable of?), perhaps it is from the sinking of Arlathan (Tamlen said he thought he saw a city underground, and Arlathan is the really only great known Elven city which might have a working mirror), perhaps it is the Chantry's version (and, if you look there, I just offered two possible alternatives! The best thought out, perhaps not, but they do for an example).  The Darkspawn have been created from some form of magic, and if you *can* present an argument against it, please do.  Any railing against the Chantry will be ignored.

You mean Fenris' story that ends with the anti-slavery Magister being murdered by the rest of them?  Truly Tevinter society is one of progress.

Your comment is so far off that you aren't even in the right ballpark.  The labs under Kirkwall were there during the Tevinter Imperium's hold on it, most likely installed when they were gathering oceans of blood and mountains of lyrium in the first place.  And of course, the place becomes a hell mouth because of magic. Specifically, Tevinter blood mages.

Uh huh.  So, to recap:

• Unique people from outside Thedas with a different government, culture and belief system which puts emphasis on the good of the group vs. the good of the individual is bad because of aggressive actions that more or less every pre-colonial society committed at some point.
• Unique magic from demons and spirits which boosts the power of normal spells and grants abilities to control minds, summon demons and harm others, while allowing the user to become more powerful through the suffering of others is totally cool.

Good to see where you stand.

So to recap.

• Merrill giving up her clan (to the point of extinction), performing strange experiments with blood magic on ancient artifacts in the middle of a crowded city with enough problems (magical and otherwise) is good.  Totally fine.  Mind the obsession and not eating.
• Avernus tortures his fellow Wardens (ie not getting consent), to attempt to unlock six abilities, in addition to his other use of mind control and demon summoning, is totally cool.

And these are your "good" examples of blood magic.  Right.  I suppose Merrill's use of blood magic might be neutral, had she only used it as power to clean the shard from her own wrist, and the problem may lie entirely with her character.

What in the world are you talking about?  Oh, I see, now the Chantry is evil.  Well, so much for any sort of understanding.  We can just erase all the good that the Chantry and the Qun have provided because they aren't perfect organizations in a dark fantasy world.  Truly.  Because if something isn't perfect according to a person's mindset, that person should reject it entirely. 

[In Exile]

I'm going to object to your example of Merrill, Blue. Let's imagine that Merrill had lyrium available, enough to cleanse the shard. Marethari would still have refused to allow her to cleanse it - her objection in the first place (which is why she didn't give her the lyrium) was that it was the kind of knowledge that should be forgotten.

So Merrill, even without BM, is going to strike out on her own. And Audacity can exploit Merrill just the same as a result, by whispering to Marethari as it did. What allowed the demon to almost escape was Merrill's incredible social ineptness, and her general inability to actually predict how people will react to anything she does. Which, of course, makes all of her plans that depend entirely on predicting how people react stupid.

But none of what follows as a consequence from what Merrill does really turns on blood magic.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Because I pointed out the application for blood magic being used for purposes that aren't evil? As I poined out above, the Joining, via the process to create Grey Wardens, who fight against the greatest threat Thedas has ever faced, and are the only ones capable of stopping the Archdemons that threaten all life on the planet.

Also, if you need to resort to name calling, you didn't have much of an argument to begin with.

It's not name calling. I have made a observation based on evidence you have provided in many many other threads prior to this one.

No, its not because you have pointed out the rather rare occurrences will trying to dismiss the many more times its been used for harm.

I also am not shocked at all that you entirely dismiss the possibility a empire built on and by unchecked magic (lots of blood mage in there) while taking the hearsay of the dwarfs as fact.

Plaintiff wrote...


But past instances of abuse, or potential for abuse, do not make blood magic inherently immoral.

No but those past abuses or potential for it should not be forgotten or dismissed out right for the sake of an argument.

As for blood magic. It is fueled by life blood and suffering I would call it immoral or inherently evil. The mage on the other hand my not be and could very well be trying to use it for good... to bad those have been shown to be rare and extraordinary events and mages.

As far as the Grey Wardens long history of doing good... I am more then happy to point to the Tevinter Empires LONGER history of doing harm.

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...

I'm going to object to your example of Merrill, Blue. Let's imagine that Merrill had lyrium available, enough to cleanse the shard. Marethari would still have refused to allow her to cleanse it - her objection in the first place (which is why she didn't give her the lyrium) was that it was the kind of knowledge that should be forgotten.

So Merrill, even without BM, is going to strike out on her own. And Audacity can exploit Merrill just the same as a result, by whispering to Marethari as it did. What allowed the demon to almost escape was Merrill's incredible social ineptness, and her general inability to actually predict how people will react to anything she does. Which, of course, makes all of her plans that depend entirely on predicting how people react stupid.

But none of what follows as a consequence from what Merrill does really turns on blood magic.

Fair enough.  Though part of my point was that performing such an experiment in a very populated, very poor area with no safeguard in place on an artifact that has tainted others in the past is a good idea.  Not to mention the Templars and weak Veil.  And I did admit that Merrill's problem came more from herself than blood magic. 

So I will withdraw my Merrill comment.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

I'm asking for a date.  I want, Year X -> Dwarves spotted Darkspawn in the Deep Roads.  Year Y -> Magisters invaded the Fade.  Given that we know the Memories to be lacking (the Profane), I will not accept a claim from one Shaper.   If you cannot provide that, you cannot claim it as evidence that Darkspawn preceeded the Magisters. [/quote]

The dwarves were the first ones who encountered the darkspawn. This isn't really an issue of dispute, since the darkspawn and the Archdemon Dumat attacked the dwarven kingdoms, and the golems were able to beat back the darkspawnm and the Archdemon Dumat - which is also noted by Branka, who wants the Anvil to restore the dwarven kingdom to what it once was. What I was pointing out was that the first darkspawn encountered don't mention any darkspawn like Corypheus, so it calls into doubt the validity of the Chantry's claims, and opens up the possibility that the Magisters may not have been the first darkspawn.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

No evidence?  Go back and read what I posted earlier.  There are connections between the Taint, the Fade, and magic. [/quote]

Not proof that the Chantry fable is fact, however, which is the point of this discussion, and the goalpost I'm interested in addressing.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

"I cannot provide an alternative so I'm just going to dismiss the one in the game that is a reasonable assumption because it is biased against my chosen peoples".  Okay, good to know. [/quote]

You mean the one Alistair didn't even acknowledge as the true story, even though he admits he no one knows the true inception of the darkspawn? And this comes from someone who was raised by the Chantry and trained to be a templar.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

And yet, you do not put forth any other idea on how the Darkspawn may have been created, your 'refutation' ignores the events of Awakening and goes on a single interpretation of Coryph's dialog. [/quote]

I don't need to. I'm not interested in dismissing your need to believe it's the truth; I'm simply pointing out that there's no evidence that it actually is the indisputable truth, because the dwarven records and Corypheus' own dialogue open up the possibility that it isn't.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

In fact, if you look back a few pages, you'll see that my initial claim was not the Chantry's but that the Darkspawn were created by magic.  Perhaps it is from lyrium (if lyrium can make the Gauntlet possible, who knows what it is capable of?), perhaps it is from the sinking of Arlathan (Tamlen said he thought he saw a city underground, and Arlathan is the really only great known Elven city which might have a working mirror), perhaps it is the Chantry's version (and, if you look there, I just offered two possible alternatives! The best thought out, perhaps not, but they do for an example).  The Darkspawn have been created from some form of magic, and if you *can* present an argument against it, please do.  Any railing against the Chantry will be ignored. [/quote]

You made the claim that the darkspawn were created by magic, and used it as condemnation of magic, even though we don't know how the darkspawn were created. That was my issue.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

You mean Fenris' story that ends with the anti-slavery Magister being murdered by the rest of them?  Truly Tevinter society is one of progress. [/quote]

Illustrating that not mages in Tevinter are the same was my point, which is also remarked on in WoT. Your comment about their society doesn't really have anything to do with my point.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Your comment is so far off that you aren't even in the right ballpark.  The labs under Kirkwall were there during the Tevinter Imperium's hold on it, most likely installed when they were gathering oceans of blood and mountains of lyrium in the first place.  And of course, the place becomes a hell mouth because of magic. Specifically, Tevinter blood mages.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie] [/quote]

I already addressed Kirkwall was a Hellmouth, and the Enigma of Kirkwall entries address this some in the group believe that this was due to what certain people from Tevinter did, and I mentioned the Enigma of Kirkwall entries in my prior comment.

And I've already addressed that the abuse of blood magic by Tevinter blood mages doesn't vilify the entire school of magic. It's a tool. It can be used for good reasons, or bad reasons, that are entirely dependant on how the user applies blood magic.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

[*]Uh huh.  So, to recap:

• Unique people from outside Thedas with a different government, culture and belief system which puts emphasis on the good of the group vs. the good of the individual is bad because of aggressive actions that more or less every pre-colonial society committed at some point.
• Unique magic from demons and spirits which boosts the power of normal spells and grants abilities to control minds, summon demons and harm others, while allowing the user to become more powerful through the suffering of others is totally cool.

Good to see where you stand. [/quote]
You'll have to excuse me if trying to whitewash the sexist, oppressive regime of the Qunari doesn't sway me. Putting people in camps and mines to be worked to death because they won't submit to the Qun, and wanting to forcibly convert everyone to their twisted ideology, are reason enough for me to want to oppose them.

Also, we don't know where blood magic comes from. You're once again pulling one claim, and acting as though it's fact. It isn't. Some scholars think the elves originated blood magic. The Tevinter lore claims Dumat taught the school of magic to the first Magister. The point is, we don't know the origin of blood magic.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Merrill giving up her clan (to the point of extinction), performing strange experiments with blood magic on ancient artifacts in the middle of a crowded city with enough problems (magical and otherwise) is good.  Totally fine.  Mind the obsession and not eating. [/quote]

Merrill left her clan of her own choice. The Dalish aren't at risk to be extinct. Merrill is building an Eluvian based on lore she gathered and information she extrapolated from the cleansed shard because she believes it can greatly benefit her people. Also, the Eluvians are used for communication mainly, and Morrigan using the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes didn't appear to pose any danger to Morrigan, The Warden, Ariane, Finn, or the Mabari Hound who might accompany the protagonist, nor was any warning issued by Morrigan if The Warden decided to enter the Eluvian with Morrigan if the two loved each other.

In fact, Marethari only thinks the Eluvian will release Audacity from its prison (in Act III, when she thought Merrill would bring back the taint in Act II, despite the fact that Merrill handled the shard for three years without becoming a ghoul like the elves in Witch Hunt who encountered the remaining corrupted shards of the Eluvian), but since it is sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem, there's no evidence to suggest that's a fact.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Avernus tortures his fellow Wardens (ie not getting consent), to attempt to unlock six abilities, in addition to his other use of mind control and demon summoning, is totally cool. [/quote]

What I said was: "And Avernus' research is an example of how pragmatic the Wardens can be." It can also be an example of a pragmatic Warden endorsing the research because he thinks the darkspawn need to be stopped, and is willing to cross any line to make that happen. That's also true with the Anvil of the Void, which offers the promise of bringing peace for the dwarven people, but at a price.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

[/list]And these are your "good" examples of blood magic.  Right.  I suppose Merrill's use of blood magic might be neutral, had she only used it as power to clean the shard from her own wrist, and the problem may lie entirely with her character. [/quote]

Avernus was brought up as an example of a blood mage who wasn't automatically susceptible to demons simply because he was using blood magic. His research was mentioned as being applied towards the goal of stopping the darkspawn if The Warden spared him (post-Warden's Keep), which is another Anvil of the Void type situation where you may get an edge towards stopping the greatest threat to all life on the planet, but at a price.

Blood magic is a tool. It can be used for good or bad, depending entirely on the user. It's used for the Joining, the phylacteries, Finn locating the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes, Merrill cleansing the shard of the corruption, and apostates who protect themselves against templars who can nullify their ordinary magical abilities and try to kill them.

And I don't find fault with Merrill wanting to stop the decline of the People.

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

What in the world are you talking about?  Oh, I see, now the Chantry is evil.  Well, so much for any sort of understanding.  We can just erase all the good that the Chantry and the Qun have provided because they aren't perfect organizations in a dark fantasy world.  Truly.  Because if something isn't perfect according to a person's mindset, that person should reject it entirely.  [/quote]

Supporting Orlesian invasions and occupations throughout the centuries, the Dalish claim that their templars invaded their sovereign nation because their people refused to convert, and the enslavement of the mages for nearly a millennia in the name of their religion are reasons enough for some people to condemn the Chantry as evil. It's also why some players have no interest playing a character who works for the Chantry or the templars, and don't want to play a character who follows their faith.

[Gilbert Salarian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I'm asking for a date.  I want, Year X -> Dwarves spotted Darkspawn in the Deep Roads.  Year Y -> Magisters invaded the Fade.  Given that we know the Memories to be lacking (the Profane), I will not accept a claim from one Shaper.   If you cannot provide that, you cannot claim it as evidence that Darkspawn preceeded the Magisters.

The dwarves were the first ones who encountered the darkspawn. This isn't really an issue of dispute, since the darkspawn and the Archdemon Dumat attacked the dwarven kingdoms, and the golems were able to beat back the darkspawnm and the Archdemon Dumat - which is also noted by Branka, who wants the Anvil to restore the dwarven kingdom to what it once was. What I was pointing out was that the first darkspawn encountered don't mention any darkspawn like Corypheus, so it calls into doubt the validity of the Chantry's claims, and opens up the possibility that the Magisters may not have been the first darkspawn.

BlueMagitek wrote...

No evidence?  Go back and read what I posted earlier.  There are connections between the Taint, the Fade, and magic.

Not proof that the Chantry fable is fact, however, which is the point of this discussion, and the goalpost I'm interested in addressing.

What Blue is wanting is a sequence of events: Dwarves spotting darkspawn, Magisters invade Fade.  You have only stated that Dwarves spot Darkspawn and refuse to acknowledge the Magisters invading the Fade and rest your case on the same hearsay (read: inconclusive) evidence that you accuse Blue of using.  Actually, there is more evidence supporting Blue's Chantry-based claim than evidence that supports your Dwaren-based claim, but since you are biased against the Chantry you refuse to acknowledge any part of it as true.  Kinda how Republicans refuse to see any good in Obamacare because it was developed and passed by Democrats.

Secondly, you use the argument that no mention of a being like Corypheus means that the Chantry tale is doubtful.  To use a real-life example: the Assyrians didn't record their defeats, which means any reference by another group (Babylonians, Israelites, Egyptians, etc.) to defeating the Assyrians in battle is also a dubious claim.  Absense of evidence does not equal evidence. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

 What in the world are you talking about?  Oh, I see, now the Chantry is evil.  Well, so much for any sort of understanding.  We can just erase all the good that the Chantry and the Qun have provided because they aren't perfect organizations in a dark fantasy world.  Truly.  Because if something isn't perfect according to a person's mindset, that person should reject it entirely.  

Supporting Orlesian invasions and occupations throughout the centuries, the Dalish claim that their templars invaded their sovereign nation because their people refused to convert, and the enslavement of the mages for nearly a millennia in the name of their religion are reasons enough for some people to condemn the Chantry as evil. It's also why some players have no interest playing a character who works for the Chantry or the templars, and don't want to play a character who follows their faith.

 
So, it's okay to oppress and slaughter people in the name of magic, but not okay to oppress and slaughter then in the name of religion?  Furthermore, the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden did accomplish some good (Amaranthine, for example), just as blood magic accomplished some good (the Joining, for example).  If you have an ideological problem with the Chantry, that’s fine.  It does not, however, provide you with a viable reason to refute anything and everything the Chantry says.

Modifié par Gilbert Salarian, 11 mai 2013 - 04:15 .

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because I pointed out the application for blood magic being used for purposes that aren't evil? As I poined out above, the Joining, via the process to create Grey Wardens, who fight against the greatest threat Thedas has ever faced, and are the only ones capable of stopping the Archdemons that threaten all life on the planet.

Also, if you need to resort to name calling, you didn't have much of an argument to begin with. 

It's not name calling. I have made a observation based on evidence you have provided in many many other threads prior to this one.

I'd suggest sticking to the discussion at hand instead of insulting posters in the future.

addiction21 wrote...

No, its not because you have pointed out the rather rare occurrences will trying to dismiss the many more times its been used for harm.

The application of blood magic is used in the Joining, which the developers have said is a form of blood magic. Grey Wardens aren't a rare occurance, and their purpose is stopping the darkspawn. We also have examples of Tevinter mages using blood magic in WoT in examples where it wasn't used for a malevolent purpose, and we know some apostates use blood magic because templars can nullify their abilities otherwise.

addiction21 wrote...

I also am not shocked at all that you entirely dismiss the possibility a empire built on and by unchecked magic (lots of blood mage in there) while taking the hearsay of the dwarfs as fact.

Arlathan was an elven kingdom, where everyone was said to be a mage originally. The Dales was a nation with mages who weren't controlled, and the Dalish are the remnants of that society who have free mages. The Avvar and the Chasind are governed by their shamans, and their mages aren't controlled. This idea that Tevinter is the only example of a society with free mages is factually inaccurate, and it's hardly one at that since the Imperium enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

addiction21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But past instances of abuse, or potential for abuse, do not make blood magic inherently immoral.

No but those past abuses or potential for it should not be forgotten or dismissed out right for the sake of an argument.

Like centuries of creating Grey Wardens to help save the world, or centuries of apostates using blood magic for self-defense against templars who are trying to kill them?

addiction21 wrote...

As for blood magic. It is fueled by life blood and suffering I would call it immoral or inherently evil. The mage on the other hand my not be and could very well be trying to use it for good... to bad those have been shown to be rare and extraordinary events and mages.

Blood magic isn't immoral or inherently evil. It's a tool. And your acknowledgement that it can be used for good doesn't help persuade me otherwise.

addiction21 wrote...

As far as the Grey Wardens long history of doing good... I am more then happy to point to the Tevinter Empires LONGER history of doing harm.

So we have centuries of the Grey Wardens doing good, and centuries of some Tevinter mages doing bad. That doesn't sway me to think that blood magic is inherently evil.

[In Exile]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Fair enough.  Though part of my point was that performing such an experiment in a very populated, very poor area with no safeguard in place on an artifact that has tainted others in the past is a good idea.

To be fair to Merrill, she had already cleased the taint. But I agree that controlled experiments in the heart of Kirkwall's alienage are not smart. But then Merrill never pretended to actually care about the immediate impact on the alienage elves of what she was doing. 

[LobselVith8]

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

What Blue is wanting is a sequence of events: Dwarves spotting darkspawn, Magisters invade Fade.  You have only stated that Dwarves spot Darkspawn and refuse to acknowledge the Magisters invading the Fade and rest your case on the same hearsay (read: inconclusive) evidence that you accuse Blue of using.

This discussion began because I pointed out that the Chantry fable wasn't indisputable fact, which is why Blue and I are now discussing the darkspawn. It's also not indisputable fact that the darkspawn were created from magic, which is another issue, because we simply don't know the inception of the darkspawn.

I'm also pointing out that the initial accounts of the darkspawn by the dwarves make no reference to any darkspawn like Corypheus, which calls into question the validity of claiming that the Magisters were the first darkspawn when the first darkspawn who were actually encountered were nothing like Corypheus.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

Actually, there is more evidence supporting Blue's Chantry-based claim than evidence that supports your Dwaren-based claim, but since you are biased against the Chantry you refuse to acknowledge any part of it as true.

Here's the flaw with your statement: I'm pointing out that the Chantry fable isn't indisputable fact. That's it. That's the extent of this area of the discussion.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

Kinda how Republicans refuse to see any good in Obamacare because it was developed and passed by Democrats.

Do us all a favor: keep the real world politics out of a discussion about a fictional fantasy realm.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

Secondly, you use the argument that no mention of a being like Corypheus means that the Chantry tale is doubtful.  

I bring it up the dwarven records of the first darkspawn to point out that there are other possibilities, because acting as though the Chantry fable must be true by virtue of being the only story out there about the inception of the darkspawn doesn't make it indisputable truth.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

To use a real-life example: the Assyrians didn't record their defeats, which means any reference by another group (Babylonians, Israelites, Egyptians, etc.) to defeating the Assyrians in battle is also a dubious claim.  Absense of evidence does not equal evidence.

I'm certain the dwarves took that into consider when they doubted the Chantry version of the fall of the Golden City and the creation of the darkspawn, even though they didn't substitute the Chantry fable with a story of their own.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

So, it's okay to oppress and slaughter people in the name of magic, but not okay to oppress and slaughter then in the name of religion?

I've never endorsed oppressing people, so I don't see the point to this retort to me. You might want to stick with what I've actually said if you're looking to respond to me.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

Furthermore, the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden did accomplish some good (Amaranthine, for example), just as blood magic accomplished some good (the Joining, for example).

It also lead to the rape and murder of countless people, including Loghain's mother. An occupation of a nation is also not comparable to a school of magic.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

If you have an ideological problem with the Chantry, that’s fine.  It does not, however, provide you with a viable reason to refute anything and everything the Chantry says. 

I have an ideological issue with subjugating elves, condemning people of different faiths as heathens, and enslaving mages. I've never denied this.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The developers never even once said that the Joinning is Blood Magic.... They said it could be VIEWED as Blood Magic, which makes all the difference in the world.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Except that he specified that some blood magic is used wrong. So the point is that blood magic can be used to do good, not that it only does good.

And like I said, that's garbled nonsense. "Blood magic" isn't a unitary category. Moreover, he didn't say blood magic can be used to do good. He said "the long history of the Joining Ritual and the Grey Wardens stopping the Blights and the incursions of the darkspawn would demonstrate that blood magic also has a long history of doing good".

A unitary example doesn't prove that an entire general category is good. 

Blood magic is a tool. It isn't inherently good or evil. It can be used for good or bad purposes, dependent entirely on the specific mage who actually uses it.

[Gilbert Salarian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

What Blue is wanting is a sequence of events: Dwarves spotting darkspawn, Magisters invade Fade.  You have only stated that Dwarves spot Darkspawn and refuse to acknowledge the Magisters invading the Fade and rest your case on the same hearsay (read: inconclusive) evidence that you accuse Blue of using.

This discussion began because I pointed out that the Chantry fable wasn't indisputable fact, which is why Blue and I are now discussing the darkspawn. It's also not indisputable fact that the darkspawn were created from magic, which is another issue, because we simply don't know the inception of the darkspawn.

I'm also pointing out that the initial accounts of the darkspawn by the dwarves make no reference to any darkspawn like Corypheus, which calls into question the validity of claiming that the Magisters were the first darkspawn when the first darkspawn who were actually encountered were nothing like Corypheus.  

Again, absence of evidence is not evidence.  Just because the dwarves didn't see them or record them does NOT mean they did not exist.  It does not take away from the vailidity of the claim that Magisters were the first darkspawn.  Not to mention, the dwarven info is a SINGLE SOURCE written in clearly biased language.  If more than one source corroborated the dwarven idea, then it would call into question the Chantry's claim.  (Try writing a term paper using only a single source and you'd get a very low grade, if the prof even bothers to read it)

[Ausstig]

You know Lobsel, maybe you would come off as less arrogant if you respected the other points of view; ie, calling the Chantry Version a 'version or view' rather then 'fable'. Since you accept all the Elves stories as hard fact, even that there 'immortality' was taken away by humans, you may not wish to be so unaccepting to the Chantry's views on Darkspawn.

Lee80alabama wrote...

The mages deserve just as much
freedom as everyone else in the game world. Every being in that
universe has the power to destroy their world if you read between the
lines. Warriors and Rouges can become abominations almost as easily as
mages. Look at all the trouble Logahin caused in the first game. He's
not a mage or even all that powerful of a warrior. Darkness dwells in
all hearts, and if one is hell bent on doing evil...it will be so.
Anyone who gets out of line has to be stopped...regardless of mage
status or not.

There is only one instance of Rouges and
Warriors being abominations in the games, when they were forced to
become them, by mages. It was treated as almost unheard of, so no Mages
are still at more risk as they do no require an external force, ie only
them and a daemon, to be come an abomination.

So Logahin is out
fighting the Warden on his own? His is mind controling his followers?
Logahin is part of the top 1-2 % of Thedas society. Mages have more
power then the average person, by your own example equal to a high lord,
there are few high lords but many mages.

Modifié par Ausstig, 12 mai 2013 - 03:03 .

[Ausstig]

Double post

Modifié par Ausstig, 12 mai 2013 - 03:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

This discussion began because I pointed out that the Chantry fable wasn't indisputable fact, which is why Blue and I are now discussing the darkspawn. It's also not indisputable fact that the darkspawn were created from magic, which is another issue, because we simply don't know the inception of the darkspawn.

I'm also pointing out that the initial accounts of the darkspawn by the dwarves make no reference to any darkspawn like Corypheus, which calls into question the validity of claiming that the Magisters were the first darkspawn when the first darkspawn who were actually encountered were nothing like Corypheus.  

Again, absence of evidence is not evidence.  Just because the dwarves didn't see them or record them does NOT mean they did not exist.  It does not take away from the vailidity of the claim that Magisters were the first darkspawn.

The dwarves encountered an army of darkspawn and the first Archdemon to arise. No mention is made of 'awakened' darkspawn like the Architect, or corrupted Magisters like Corypheus. That calls into question the validity of the Chantry's version of events.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

Not to mention, the dwarven info is a SINGLE SOURCE written in clearly biased language.

You mean it was recorded by the Shaper - the person who records and collects the history, lore, and events of the dwarven people. And I presume you think it's biased because the dwarven historical account doesn't simply take the Chantry fable as indisputable fact on the mere word of the Andrastian Chantry?

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

If more than one source corroborated the dwarven idea, then it would call into question the Chantry's claim.  (Try writing a term paper using only a single source and you'd get a very low grade, if the prof even bothers to read it)

It's not a "dwarven idea", it's their historical account about what transpired when they encountered the darkspawn that is recorded by the Shaper.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Paragon Caridin seems to believe that the Darkspawn were an evil unleashed upon the world by the humans.

[Gilbert Salarian]

You know, failing to address a point by simply restating what you have already stated is NOT good logic or argumentation, nor does it lead to an effective conversation.

If you possessed some reading comprehension, you could tell from the words and tone of the passage that the Shaper is biased. Not to mention that a Shaper is still only ONE SOURCE. If a Tevinter manuscript, Dalish legend, or Antivan song had similar information, that would give your argument validity. If you can't or won't see that, I'm sorry.

And lastly, do you not see the irony of your rebuttal of the phrase "dwarven idea" when you persist on using the phrase "Chantry fable?"

[Gilbert Salarian]

Filament wrote...

Neither source is indisputable. I dunno how you can have this frame that the Chantry is by default correct unless disputed by multiple sources. It would first have to be supported by multiple sources, when all we have is Corypheus and dogma. And Corypheus indicates that his people weren't necessarily the source of the corruption.

You're absolutely right, neither source is indisputable.  However, what Corypheus says does corroborate some of what the Chant of Light says.  On the flip side, the Chant is an awful lot of frilly language and should also be taken with a grain of salt, like Wynne and Alistair suggest. Neither does this mean that defaulting to belief in the Chant is wrong; it's just a starting point, a world-view.

If I was Dalish, I would absolutely believe my 'myths' before I'd think the shemlen legends had any ring of truth to them.  If I was a dwarf, I would likewise believe my own culture's ideas and shun the Surfacers views.  If I was Kossith, I would believe the Qun over the Chant.  However, if any of these varied cultures had a similar/identical idea in opposition to my own culture's, it would make me think that maybe my culture doesn't have all the answers.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The dwarves were the first ones who encountered the darkspawn. This isn't really an issue of dispute, since the darkspawn and the Archdemon Dumat attacked the dwarven kingdoms, and the golems were able to beat back the darkspawnm and the Archdemon Dumat - which is also noted by Branka, who wants the Anvil to restore the dwarven kingdom to what it once was. What I was pointing out was that the first darkspawn encountered don't mention any darkspawn like Corypheus, so it calls into doubt the validity of the Chantry's claims, and opens up the possibility that the Magisters may not have been the first darkspawn.

Not proof that the Chantry fable is fact, however, which is the point of this discussion, and the goalpost I'm interested in addressing.

You mean the one Alistair didn't even acknowledge as the true story, even though he admits he no one knows the true inception of the darkspawn? And this comes from someone who was raised by the Chantry and trained to be a templar.

I don't need to. I'm not interested in dismissing your need to believe it's the truth; I'm simply pointing out that there's no evidence that it actually is the indisputable truth, because the dwarven records and Corypheus' own dialogue open up the possibility that it isn't.

Illustrating that not mages in Tevinter are the same was my point, which is also remarked on in WoT. Your comment about their society doesn't really have anything to do with my point.

I already addressed Kirkwall was a Hellmouth, and the Enigma of Kirkwall entries address this some in the group believe that this was due to what certain people from Tevinter did, and I mentioned the Enigma of Kirkwall entries in my prior comment.

And I've already addressed that the abuse of blood magic by Tevinter blood mages doesn't vilify the entire school of magic. It's a tool. It can be used for good reasons, or bad reasons, that are entirely dependant on how the user applies blood magic.
[*]
[*]You'll have to excuse me if trying to whitewash the sexist, oppressive regime of the Qunari doesn't sway me. Putting people in camps and mines to be worked to death because they won't submit to the Qun, and wanting to forcibly convert everyone to their twisted ideology, are reason enough for me to want to oppose them.

Also, we don't know where blood magic comes from. You're once again pulling one claim, and acting as though it's fact. It isn't. Some scholars think the elves originated blood magic. The Tevinter lore claims Dumat taught the school of magic to the first Magister. The point is, we don't know the origin of blood magic.
[*]
Blood magic is a tool. It can be used for good or bad, depending entirely on the user. It's used for the Joining, the phylacteries, Finn locating the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes, Merrill cleansing the shard of the corruption, and apostates who protect themselves against templars who can nullify their ordinary magical abilities and try to kill them.

Supporting Orlesian invasions and occupations throughout the centuries, the Dalish claim that their templars invaded their sovereign nation because their people refused to convert, and the enslavement of the mages for nearly a millennia in the name of their religion are reasons enough for some people to condemn the Chantry as evil. It's also why some players have no interest playing a character who works for the Chantry or the templars, and don't want to play a character who follows their faith.

The Dwarves may very well be the first to encounter Darkspawn.  That has nothing to do with what I asked for.  What happened first, Darkspawn Sightings or Tevinter invasion?  And considering we had no mention of Cory until Legacy, that doesn't mean that they didn't exist at the time. 
If you are unable or unwilling to answer the above question, then you must stop bringing up the point as though it actually meant something.

Please remove your blinders and consider what I said.  There are relations between the Taint and Magic, and the Darkspawn origin is most likely tied to it.

Alistar doesn't even know how to kill an Archdemon, he is in no way a credible source on Darkspawn.

Goalposts.  Well, in that case, you could have just said 'hey, there may be evidence supporting that, but it hasn't been stated as true'.  Instead you spew bile about the Chantry per usual.

Well, aside from causing problems with the darkspawn, what has Tevinter's blood magic done?  Aside from holding a morally neutral culture at bay?

Which tends to be for their own gain, with very few purposes being anywhere near altruistic.  But that's perfectly fine.  Just like using white phospherous in a heavy urban zone.  Truly it depends how it is used.

Just like the vast majority of conquering armies?  Regardless, if blood magic is neutral, so are the Qunari.  They've brought medicine and order to a war torn Thedas.

That is where the vast majority of blood magic users learn it, no?

A tool that is primarily used for nefarious purposes.   And you just listed one of the reasons as to why it is so dangerous as a good thing.  If blood magic cannot be defended against, how can anyone, even other mages, be expected to police blood mages?

Hahaha, hiding behind a Dalish claim again?  Throw that oral history passed down by awful racists out.  But please, continue to defame the Chantry for stopping mages from being murdered by extremists, retaliating after their Vatican was sacked, and being supported by Archdemon slaying Grey Wardens.

And I'm fine with people having choice.

To Exile :

Agreed.

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

You know Lobsel, maybe you would come off as less arrogant if you respected the other points of view; ie, calling the Chantry Version a 'version or view' rather then 'fable'.

It's part of their religious teachings about the sins committed by humanity. And I was pointing out that what the Chantry claims isn't indisputable fact. That's it.

Ausstig wrote...

Since you accept all the Elves stories as hard fact, even that there 'immortality' was taken away by humans, you may not wish to be so unaccepting to the Chantry's views on Darkspawn.

Actually, I have pointed out it's a possibility that could be true, since the Dalish seem to live longer the more generations they live away from humans.

Ausstig wrote...

Lee80alabama wrote...

The mages deserve just as much freedom as everyone else in the game world. Every being in that universe has the power to destroy their world if you read between the lines. Warriors and Rouges can become abominations almost as easily as mages. Look at all the trouble Logahin caused in the first game. He's not a mage or even all that powerful of a warrior. Darkness dwells in all hearts, and if one is hell bent on doing evil...it will be so. Anyone who gets out of line has to be stopped...regardless of mage status or not.

There is only one instance of Rouges and Warriors being abominations in the games, when they were forced to
become them, by mages. It was treated as almost unheard of, so no Mages are still at more risk as they do no require an external force, ie only them and a daemon, to be come an abomination.

We already know trees, animals, and ordinary people can become possessed, and the Brecillian Forest shows us that it doesn't require a mage for possession to happen to non-mages. It's not as though mages are the only ones who can become possessed.

Ausstig wrote...

So Logahin is out fighting the Warden on his own? His is mind controling his followers? Logahin is part of the top 1-2 % of Thedas society. Mages have more power then the average person, by your own example equal to a high lord, there are few high lords but many mages.

The point was that everyone is capable of doing bad - even non-mages. Vaughan and Howe are prime examples of that.

[BlueMagitek]

Lobs, Mary Kirby just stated that the Dalish don't have a longer lifespan, that Dalish lie has been dispelled. :/

[LobselVith8]

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

You know, failing to address a point by simply restating what you have already stated is NOT good logic or argumentation, nor does it lead to an effective conversation.

Since even you fail to address the fact that I simply pointed out that the Chantry version isn't indisputable fact, I apparently have to repeat myself.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

If you possessed some reading comprehension, you could tell from the words and tone of the passage that the Shaper is biased.

Do you think snide remarks are going to contribute anything meaningful to this discussion?

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

Not to mention that a Shaper is still only ONE SOURCE. If a Tevinter manuscript, Dalish legend, or Antivan song had similar information, that would give your argument validity. If you can't or won't see that, I'm sorry.

The dwarves are the source of this historical account. I'm not certain what that has to do with anything.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

And lastly, do you not see the irony of your rebuttal of the phrase "dwarven idea" when you persist on using the phrase "Chantry fable?"

Because it's one of the religious stories the Andrastian Chantry tells about the sins of humanity, which makes it a tale intended to teach a moral lesson.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

Filament wrote...

Neither source is indisputable. I dunno how you can have this frame that the Chantry is by default correct unless disputed by multiple sources. It would first have to be supported by multiple sources, when all we have is Corypheus and dogma. And Corypheus indicates that his people weren't necessarily the source of the corruption.

You're absolutely right, neither source is indisputable.  However, what Corypheus says does corroborate some of what the Chant of Light says.  On the flip side, the Chant is an awful lot of frilly language and should also be taken with a grain of salt, like Wynne and Alistair suggest. Neither does this mean that defaulting to belief in the Chant is wrong; it's just a starting point, a world-view.

You might feel that way, but plenty of people have addressed that they think Corypheus' dialogue contradicts the Chantry version.

Also, Alistair doesn't even acknowledge the Chantry story about the Golden City as the truth. His dialogue suggests that he doesn't think of it as the truth, since he offers to tell The Warden the Chantry version or the truth, and then tells the protagonist that no one knows the true story.

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

If I was Dalish, I would absolutely believe my 'myths' before I'd think the shemlen legends had any ring of truth to them.  If I was a dwarf, I would likewise believe my own culture's ideas and shun the Surfacers views.  If I was Kossith, I would believe the Qun over the Chant.  However, if any of these varied cultures had a similar/identical idea in opposition to my own culture's, it would make me think that maybe my culture doesn't have all the answers. 

That has nothing to do with the type of darkspawn that were initially encountered by the darkspawn, who were chronicled in their historical records.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Lobs, Mary Kirby just stated that the Dalish don't have a longer lifespan, that Dalish lie has been dispelled. :/

Gaider said something entirely different about the Dalish at Thedas UK Con in Leicestershire, England, on Saturday January 14th, 2012:

David Gaider: "City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."

Furthermore, we have characters in Origins who address that the Dalish live longer, and Marethari's age in both games is an example of a Dalish elf who lives longer than ordinary humans and the Alienage elves. Also, as Ethereal pointed out in the other thread:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Beyond the aforementioned DG quote, we also have Master Ilen talking of his father who fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Fall of the Dales, which occurred a few centuries prior to Calenhad's uniting of the clans into modern day Ferelden as we know it.