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[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Lobs, Mary Kirby just stated that the Dalish don't have a longer lifespan, that Dalish lie has been dispelled. :/

Gaider said something entirely different about the Dalish at Thedas UK Con in Leicestershire, England, on Saturday January 14th, 2012:

David Gaider: "City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."

Furthermore, we have characters in Origins who address that the Dalish live longer, and Marethari's age in both games is an example of a Dalish elf who lives longer than ordinary humans and the Alienage elves. Also, as Ethereal pointed out in the other thread:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Beyond the aforementioned DG quote, we also have Master Ilen talking of his father who fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Fall of the Dales, which occurred a few centuries prior to Calenhad's uniting of the clans into modern day Ferelden as we know it.

You're trusting the words of Dalish fables completely for no reason.  There's one elf who is mentioned to live centuries, there is one elf that we know of that has lived centuries and we know it has absolutely nothing to do with the Dalish living away from humans.

But Mary Kirby's quote stands as the most recent one, and one that was actually addressing the lifespan of the various species among Thedas.  And of course, he says "the longer they seem to live".  This could be related to the lifestyle, diet, anything.  It appears that you are assuming that Dalish victim fantasies are true.  Again. 

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You're trusting the words of Dalish fables completely for no reason.  There's one elf who is mentioned to live centuries, there is one elf that we know of that has lived centuries and we know it has absolutely nothing to do with the Dalish living away from humans.

I don't think Master Ilen talking about his father is quite the same thing as the Chantry fable that talks about humanity's sin against their god.

BlueMagitek wrote...

But Mary Kirby's quote stands as the most recent one, and one that was actually addressing the lifespan of the various species among Thedas.

It's also the one that contradicted what Gaider and two games have told us.

BlueMagitek wrote...

And of course, he says "the longer they seem to live".  This could be related to the lifestyle, diet, anything.  It appears that you are assuming that Dalish victim fantasies are true.  Again. 

The fact that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves already contradicts what Kirby said, which was likely a mistake.

[BlueMagitek]

You know what, Lobs, fine, ignore the most recent dev quotes on the subject.  But don't try to claim Dalish immortality as fact. 

[TEWR]

You're trusting the words of Dalish fables completely for no reason.

I think ascribing how long a son knows his father had lived for as being a "fable" is rather... absurd.

Ignoring the whole belief itself, what Ilen says is crystal clear. His father fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Fall of the Dales, which was a few centuries before Calenhad was even born.

[BlueMagitek]

And, given the information we know from the game, we can come to the conclusion that his father must have been involved in a similar magical ritual as Zathy.

If his father *was* fighting human tribes, then he certainly had contact with them, and would have lost his immortality with the snap of a finger from the Quickening.

Come on, EWR, you're reasonable. Is it more likely that, as Zathy, golems and Avernus show us, expanded lifespans are possible through the use of magic (and lyrium, in the golems case), or is it that elves just happen to be immortal and lose it when they're in the general vicinity of humans (but not any other species)?

[TEWR]

If his father *was* fighting human tribes, then he certainly had contact with them, and would have lost his immortality with the snap of a finger from the Quickening.

The Quickening wasn't, as its name implies, a sudden thing. It was a disease, quite literally. The Elves fell susceptible to plagues and illnesses for the first time ever in their history that over time wiped away their immortality and rendered them as being the same as humans.

It occurred after Elven traders and scholars from Arlathan returned from early Tevinter cities (or the pre-cursor towns and cities to Tevinter).

So no, having a few battles with humans wouldn't wipe away his long lifespan immediately.

Regardless, I'm not saying the man was immortal. Just that he had indeed lived for a long lifetime, lending some credibility to the Dalish belief.

Some.

Come on, EWR, you're reasonable. Is it more likely that, as Zathy, golems and Avernus show us, expanded lifespans are possible through the use of magic (and lyrium, in the golems case), or is it that elves just happen to be immortal and lose it when they're in the general vicinity of humans (but not any other species)?

The man was a bow user, and the Elves know nothing of Arcane Warrior abilities (it's considered a lost art hailing from ancient Elvhenan). If they had, we'd see a few Arcane Warriors in the Sabrae clan, but we do not.

As such, we can deduce that Ilen's father was simply a regular hunter. An archer. Not a Mage, and thus not someone who had a blood magic extension going on.

I'm not saying they were naturally immortal, nor am I saying they were not. Just that we have solid evidence that some Elves do in fact live exceptionally long lives (and considering Ilen's dad is dead, as opposed to Zathrian who was tied to a curse, well...) and we also have evidence to suggest blood magic was not the cause of this man's particular lifespan.

Besides, I doubt that if he was part of some blood magic ritual that it'd last for centuries and centuries without more bloodshed over those long timespans, yet we know the Dalish do not go about sacrificing children to their gods.

So what's more believable, that his life away from humans managed to grant him a longer life or that some hypothetical blood magic ritual a hunter performed managed to work for Ancestors only know how many centuries without a call to sacrifice more people?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2013 - 06:16 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Quickening wasn't, as its name implies, a sudden thing. It was a disease, quite literally. The Elves fell susceptible to plagues and illnesses for the first time ever in their history that over time wiped away their immortality and rendered them as being the same as humans.

It occurred after Elven traders and scholars from Arlathan returned from early Tevinter cities (or the pre-cursor towns and cities to Tevinter).

So no, having a few battles with humans wouldn't wipe away his long lifespan immediately.

Regardless, I'm not saying the man was immortal. Just that he had indeed lived for a long lifetime, lending some credibility to the Dalish belief.

Some.

The man was a bow user, and the Elves know nothing of Arcane Warrior abilities (it's considered a lost art hailing from ancient Elvhenan). If they had, we'd see a few Arcane Warriors in the Sabrae clan, but we do not.

As such, we can deduce that Ilen's father was simply a regular hunter. An archer. Not a Mage, and thus not someone who had a blood magic extension going on.

I'm not saying they were naturally immortal, nor am I saying they were not. Just that we have solid evidence that some Elves do in fact live long lives (and considering Ilen's dad is dead, as opposed to Zathrian who was tied to a curse, well...).

And.... you believe that?  The only immortal creatures in DA so far have been Golems and Darkspawn, and they have magic backing them.  Even Dragons seem to die of old age, if that recent comic showing how Reavers started Ferelden is correct.

The oldest "normal" Dalish we know seems to be Marethri, at 100+.  And that isn't really isn't so significant that it could be mistaken for any sign of returning immortality.

No no, I'm not suggesting that the same ritual was used, but a similar one.  In fact, that's my believe behind the myth of Arlathan elves.  The Dalish were wrong, and right at the same time about their ancestors.  There was immortality, and it was taken by Tevinter, but the immortality was from a race-wide bond with nature (or nature spirits, similar to the Lady) and the curse was broken by human caused destruction of nature on Thedas. 

Makes more sense than Elves are inherently immortal anyway.

But believe what you will, it really doesn't matter anyway.

[TEWR]

Also, as Ethereal pointed out in the other thread:

Out of curiosity Lob, can you point me to that thread? I've tried to find it but haven't been able to remember where I partook in such a discussion.

[TEWR]

And.... you believe that? The only immortal creatures in DA so far have been Golems and Darkspawn, and they have magic backing them. Even Dragons seem to die of old age, if that recent comic showing how Reavers started Ferelden is correct.

It's certainly more feasible then "Elves and Humans met, suddenly Elves aren't immortal."

It was a gradual process, and one that was harder to stay away from as humans expanded (good or bad being irrelevant on that front).

Do I believe it? Yes and no. I have a few alternate theories (one being similar to yours, but not quite the same) but I also acknowledge that it could be true and it's somewhat feasible.

The oldest "normal" Dalish we know seems to be Marethri, at 100+. And that isn't really isn't so significant that it could be mistaken for any sign of returning immortality.

For a medieval-esque society, that's actually pretty high.

Unless I'm forgetting something from history. I do that sometimes.

No no, I'm not suggesting that the same ritual was used, but a similar one. In fact, that's my believe behind the myth of Arlathan elves. The Dalish were wrong, and right at the same time about their ancestors. There was immortality, and it was taken by Tevinter, but the immortality was from a race-wide bond with nature (or nature spirits, similar to the Lady) and the curse was broken by human caused destruction of nature on Thedas.

Makes more sense than Elves are inherently immortal anyway.

Nature I like. Nature spirits I don't. Only problem is that we'd then see a ****load of nature-oriented spirits roaming the countryside.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2013 - 06:26 .

[TEWR]

IT WAS THE MAKER, WHO IS SANDAL.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also, as Ethereal pointed out in the other thread:

Out of curiosity Lob, can you point me to that thread? I've tried to find it but haven't been able to remember where I partook in such a discussion.

No problem.

[Plague Doctor D.]

Could someone tell me where Mary Kirby stated that the long lifespan thing is rubbish?

[Ausstig]

Here is the page

http://social.biowar...ndex/16519770/2

and here is the post

http://social.biowar...9770/2#16532235

But don't show lob, he may get made things have changed.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So what's more believable, that his life away from humans managed to grant him a longer life or that some hypothetical blood magic ritual a hunter performed managed to work for Ancestors only know how many centuries without a call to sacrifice more people?

Third option: Dalish elves have been shown to prefer embellishment over facts. Either Ilen or his father wanted to look good and made up some history about how he lived for centuries.

Fourth option: If we assume that Ilen really was an elf who lived in the Dales, he could have benefited from some blood magic spell the Dales was using at the time of their fall.

Fifth option: Whoever wrote that hadn't been given the notes of how old Ferelden is and how hold that would make Ilen's father. I find that more credible than a centuries old elf being mentioned once.

For a medieval-esque society, that's actually pretty high.

Unless I'm forgetting something from history. I do that sometimes.

It is remarkable, yes. But King Caspar Pentaghast; needless to say, a human; lived for 127 years and, on his very last day, he bested his great-grandson in a sparring match.
Therefore, Marethari living for over one hundred years with her mental faculties mostly intact is no evidence of some elvish immortality.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's certainly more feasible then "Elves and Humans met, suddenly Elves aren't immortal."

It was a gradual process, and one that was harder to stay away from as humans expanded (good or bad being irrelevant on that front).

Do I believe it? Yes and no. I have a few alternate theories (one being similar to yours, but not quite the same) but I also acknowledge that it could be true and it's somewhat feasible.

For a medieval-esque society, that's actually pretty high.

Unless I'm forgetting something from history. I do that sometimes.

Nature I like. Nature spirits I don't. Only problem is that we'd then see a ****load of nature-oriented spirits roaming the countryside.

I find it extremely suspicious.  Especially as interbreeding is possible, which would suggest a common ancestor (if not the same genus, than the same family, I would imagine). And if the treatment of outsiders who have the audacity to disagree with their story (be they filthy shemlen boot licking city elf, Qunari or Dwarf, nevermind human), does not bode well to me.

Actually if you survived childhood in medieval times and received proper nutrition and whatnot, you could easily live into your 70s.  Considering the active, magical lifestyle of a Keeper, I would not be surprised for her to live so long. 

Well, if you remember what the Lady said, it seems that she sort of existed in the plants themselves for a while, before she was expressively called out as Witherfang. 

[MisterJB]

If the elves were immortal, then where are the ones who went to Uthenera? No Tevinter writing ever mentioned the Imperium having to deal with really old elves rising from their tombs.
Are we supposed to believe they didn't notice their race was being enslaved; despite supposedly traveling in the Fade with the children of a Goddess and actually being able to return to their bodies; or that they are still slumbering ala Antediluvian, except without the near omnipotence?

Unless, of course, Uthenera was just a normal burial and sleeping forever, weary of life, is just symbolism for "dead as f*ck."

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 mai 2013 - 02:53 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

MisterJB
"It is remarkable, yes. But King Caspar Pentaghast; needless to say, a human; lived for 127 years and, on his very last day, he bested his great-grandson in a sparring match.."

1)who the hell was Caspar? i can't find anything about him especially his race and his parents and his magic possesion
2)he is from Pentaghast clan of dragon hunters who know very much about dragon blood-so he can be Reaver
3)Nevara is a rich Kingdom and they have mages who studies and works with the dead, called the "Mortalitaxi", so he can use blood magic(especially if he have dragon blood) rituals like Baroness did from DA:O. Awakening

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 12 mai 2013 - 03:01 .

[MisterJB]

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)who the hell was Caspar? i can't find anything about him especially his race and his parents and his magic possesion

"World of Thedas" page 53. He was the first King of the Pentaghast dinasty which means non-mage human.

2)he is from Pentaghast clan of dragon hunters who know very much about dragon blood-so he can be Reaver
3)Nevara is a rich Kingdom and they have mages who studies and works with the dead, called the "Mortalitaxi", so he can use blood magic(especially if he have dragon blood) rituals like Baroness did from DA:O. Awakening

And Marethari is a mage so, she could have also been using blood magic as well. If you say that she seemed to repudiate blood magic, I'll just say that, as an Andrastian nation, blood magic is also forbidden in Nevarra.

Bottom line, by suggesting magical explanations for the people who lived remarkably long lives, all you're doing is giving credit to the theory that any possible elvish immortality was due to magic, of blood or not, and not some inherent characteristic of their race

[Xilizhra]

And Marethari is a mage so, she could have also been using blood magic as well. If you say that she seemed to repudiate blood magic, I'll just say that, as an Andrastian nation, blood magic is also forbidden in Nevarra.

The difference being that this human has never been seen to repudiate blood magic and might have had any opinion on it at all, whereas Marethari not only verbally attacks it, but does so politically as well, to cut Merrill off from any support for being a blood mage.

Bottom line, by suggesting magical explanations for the people who lived remarkably long lives, all you're doing is giving credit to the theory that any possible elvish immortality was due to magic, of blood or not, and not some inherent characteristic of their race

Why are those contradictory? Elves seem to be a more inherently magical race than humans.

"World of Thedas" page 53. He was the first King of the Pentaghast dinasty which means non-mage human.

Lady Harriman seemed to gain magical ability from a demon. And if she'd been an apostate all along, it just goes to show that noble apostates still exist.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 mai 2013 - 03:31 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

MisterJB wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)who the hell was Caspar? i can't find anything about him especially his race and his parents and his magic possesion

"World of Thedas" page 53. He was the first King of the Pentaghast dinasty which means non-mage human.

2)he is from Pentaghast clan of dragon hunters who know very much about dragon blood-so he can be Reaver
3)Nevara is a rich Kingdom and they have mages who studies and works with the dead, called the "Mortalitaxi", so he can use blood magic(especially if he have dragon blood) rituals like Baroness did from DA:O. Awakening

And Marethari is a mage so, she could have also been using blood magic as well. If you say that she seemed to repudiate blood magic, I'll just say that, as an Andrastian nation, blood magic is also forbidden in Nevarra.

Bottom line, by suggesting magical explanations for the people who lived remarkably long lives, all you're doing is giving credit to the theory that any possible elvish immortality was due to magic, of blood or not, and not some inherent characteristic of their race

1)unfortunately i not have this book(i not know all information), but i not see any reasons how he cant be reaver(and i am sure that he was) or apostage mage and even half elf

2)in Tevinter blood magic is also forbitten, so what?..in kingdom near Tevinter(and Nevarra hate orlais) who have dragon hunters who know too much about dragon blood and who have mages who work with dead...Say what you want but they have blood magic and they use it

3)ofcourse they live long because of magic, they was a race of powerfull dreamer mages with close connections with nature and fade...this is was inherent characteristic of their race and they wanted to reclaim that.

and all Keepers what we see know blood magic but they use only their own blood for that

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 12 mai 2013 - 03:47 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The difference being that this human has never been seen to repudiate blood magic and might have had any opinion on it at all, whereas Marethari not only verbally attacks it, but does so politically as well, to cut Merrill off from any support for being a blood mage.

True but since Nevarra is an Andrastian nation that was once part of the Free Marches, another Andrastian nation, he ruled in a culture that repudiated blood magic. and there is nothing suggesting Nevarra or the Pentaghasts have any tradition regarding blood magic. 127 is long enough to be suspicious but not so long that is only achievable through arcane means.
If we assume that Caspar was using blood magic because people are liara and hypocrites despite nothing suggesting Caspar was, the same can be said of Marethari due to the fact she is a person.

Why are those contradictory? Elves seem to be a more inherently magical race than humans.

Some spell that could grant immortality and only works on elves? Sure, I could believe that.
Inborn immortality that requires no mantenaince whatsoever and is affected through contact with humans? I dont buy it. It just doesn't make sense on many different levels. For instance, dwarves are less inherently magical than any other race but prolonged contact with them doesn't make mages less magical.

Lady Harriman seemed to gain magical ability from a demon. And if she'd been an apostate all along, it just goes to show that noble apostates still exist.

Nobles apostates do exist, Gascard Dupuis and the Baroness, for example, Royal Apostates would be harder to conceal from the Chantry and there is nothing suggesting the Pentaghasts have magic in their blood. We know, for a fact, Cassandra is not a mage since she didn't cast one spell in "Dawn of the Seeker." Usually, we come up with theories based on evidence, not the other way around.

[Heimdall]

I find it more likely that Ilen's father's age is the result of a writing oversight with a writer under the impression the the expulsion of the elves from the Dales was a much more recent event.

[Xilizhra]

Some spell that could grant immortality and only works on elves? Sure, I could believe that.
Inborn immortality that requires no mantenaince whatsoever and is affected through contact with humans? I dont buy it. It just doesn't make sense on many different levels. For instance, dwarves are less inherently magical than any other race but prolonged contact with them doesn't make mages less magical.

It doesn't make sense by what we know now, which is, relatively speaking, incredibly little. A great many things have been lost in the past that we know nothing of, such as the Primeval Thaig. And I've come up with several theories for it, such as humans being unknowing factors to spread some kind of spiritual contagion that only affects elves.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

And of course, he says "the longer they seem to live".  This could be related to the lifestyle, diet, anything.  It appears that you are assuming that Dalish victim fantasies are true.  Again. 

The fact that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves already contradicts what Kirby said, which was likely a mistake.

Not really. The conditions in the Denerim Alienage seem to be bad for one's life, and it's stated to be one of the better ones.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 mai 2013 - 04:08 .